MovieChat Forums > Millennium (1996) Discussion > What went wrong with this show?

What went wrong with this show?

posted 15 years ago by narbo
47 replies | jump to latest

Okay. I love this show, but I think I'm starting to spot the problems. I've seen the whole series before and you can feel it de-rail, but I'm watching it again with a better sense of things. Here a few of my OPINIONS on where it went wrong. I would love to see responses on this. I find a lot of the comments on the Millennium boards to be very interesting and insightful. So, my thoughts:

- The whole arc of Frank and Katherine's relationship was way too quick. The yellow house was supposed to symbolize hope, and they started clawing away at it too soon. I think it would've been more interesting to see their relationship work for a few seasons. It seems too obvious to have it break down because "Frank is dark and complex". If anyone could've understood Frank it would have been Katherine, her job required her to see a lot of damaged people too. The yellow house motif broke down too quick.
-Morgan and Wong did a lot of damage to this show. Frank is very bickery with Peter from the get go in S2. Why? He even calls him Pete in this condescending manner from the first episode of season two. The show gets way too conspiracy oriented with the Millennium group who were already pretty vague, becoming even more mysterious. It felt like Frank was a part of the Millennium group in season one (yes, I know he's a 'consultant') so why is he suddenly reduced to a candidate with every one trying to teach him about the group. It felt in season two like the show was about the group and not Frank. In S1 it seemed like Frank had this all knowing quality, but to make the group so mysterious made it seem like they had the upper hand, like they knew things he didn't.
- the world ending at the end of season 2. I don't think I need to say anything else on this one...
- Katherine dying. As I said, Meghan was so great on the show, and could've been so much more utilized. Re-watch Katherine and Frank's bond in the first episodes of S1, it's fascinating, and moving. Frank being kicked out of the house in S2 was a bad and weird move with a rather flimsy motivation.
- The Millennium group is bad. This sort of pulled the rug out from under the audience. Lance has said he didn't like that move either and it frustrated him. Here's why I think it's bad: S1 - Millennium group=Frank Black and Frank=good. To take that away from people means they've been rooting for the wrong side in S1, it also suggests Frank is naive. Frank is supposed to be all seeing in many ways. It undermines his character.
-S3 is not that bad considering. I like it better than S2 BUT...BUT admittedly they had to deal with the mess Wong and Morgan left them in that a) Peter Watts is now bad b) the Millennium group is bad. Sure, some of the story lines were weak but the addition of Emma Hollis was great. The rapport between Klea and Lance was phenomenal. It was a deep friendship/ mentor-student thing. Love where Emma realizes there is not always a Why? to the things people do, and she says that it is pointless to try and doing anything about, but Franks says "no, agent Hollis". Very powerful, speaks to both of the charcters so well.

Okay that's all for now. I'd also like to add that a bad episode of Millennium is still better than most shows. Lance as Frank Black made watching all three seasons worth it. The show wasn't consistent, but he was. Millennium is still one of the darkest shows ever on television, but Frank Black is the closest thing to a modern day saint that we've seen.

Okay. Let's hear some thoughts on this.

[–] sisterdebmac 15 years ago

I don't know. I stopped reading once you started with the Morgan & Wong bashing. They did the best they could to turn the show into something, only to have it taken away from them at the end of S2. You cannot blame WongTV for the abrupt turn at the end of that season and the complete dismissal by TPTB of everything that went before once the third season started. They expected everyone to just forget? Give me a break. The runners of S3 crapped all over the audience, insulted our intelligence, and ran most of us off.

What went wrong with this show is that Chris Carter never really had a plan for it. He was simply riding the crest of his success with The X Files --- which he also ruined through poor planning. Fox said, hey, wanna do another show? And he said hell yeah and slapped one together. Just like with TXF, he never seemed to have any idea where to go with it once it was clear that it would last more than a year.

You wanna blame someone blame the almighty creator.
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[–] narbo 15 years ago

Interesting points sisterdebmac. I totally agree in the regard that it feels like Carter had no real idea for the overall direction of the show. I'm watching S2 right now (literally) and it's really different from S1. In S1 many of the stories are about people you would encounter in everyday life (a pharmacist, someone at a funeral, at an open house, a telemarketer) and then Frank digs deeper. Whereas S2 it's about being called to places and the underbelly of society (a remote town, test labs). But I reaffirm my frustration with changing the direction of the Frank character in the sense that he seems in the dark now. in 'Antisense' the cab driver has to explain things to Frank, and Frank doubts him. The Frank of the first season was more open, but what made him who he was lay in the fact that HE explained things to people and if they listened was up to them. I find it frustrating.

I have to say to that my most loved episode is from S2, being the episode 'The Curse of Frank Black". That one, for me at least, gets everything right.

[–] remnantsaflame-1 14 years ago

They did the best they could to turn the show into something

Yep, and nothing they did was as out of left field as S2 haters would have you think. It was implied from day one that the show was about something more than just serial killers. In the pilot ... the pilot, mind you ... Bletcher says to Frank, "So, you're working with the Millennium Group, huh? You believe in that stuff? The end of the world?" Morgan and Wong basically took what S1 was setting up, and fully realized it.

You cannot blame WongTV for the abrupt turn at the end of that season and the complete dismissal by TPTB of everything that went before once the third season started.

Morgan and Wong detractors forget that they did what they in the S2 finale because they didn't think the show was going to be renewed. And, I dunno, but it kinda makes sense to end a show that was about the end of the world with ... the end of the world. Dontcha think? :D

[–] waspfan33 14 years ago

millennium wasnt just slapped together.dont be angry cuz u dont get something more complex than a sitcom.

spectre can

suck it.

[–] guybland-1 12 years ago

sisterdebmac: You are correct about the true cause of the demise of the show. If you watch the documentary on the show's creation on the DVD, you can clearly see that Carter's ideas about the show are vague at best. The premise was sound, but he simply could not flesh out the details well enough to sustain a series. That being said, I was never certain why Morgan and Wong chose to take such a radical turn in season two. It seems to me that no one associated with the show, including Carter, knew exactly how to intelligently integrate the Millennium group into the stories. Throughout the run of the first season, we have two generally disparate story lines: Frank's gift and the group. Were we simply to accept that the existence of serial killers was a sign of the times? And what was the group's real interest in such events?

While I loved the show, I must say that it was a bitter disappointment.

[–] charismaseasons 10 years ago

The show was about a guy who consults with a group of ex law enforcement guys who help local police to track serial killers and solve unusual crimes.

That was what the show was about. By the end of season one that format was well and truly established.

Wong and Morgan decided they didn't like that so they decided to turn it into X Files lite.

In the making of extras in season 1 DVD Carter said that basically he want each Millennium to be a mini version of the movie Se7en each week.

Wong and Morgan wanted it to be a weaker version of X Files each week.

[–] DingusStudley 15 years ago

You're 100% right about the Kathryn/Frank problems. They rushed that. IMMEDIATELY after Frank saves her, she moves out. HUH?!? What?! WHY!?!? They needed to have slowly built into it. They handled that poorly. Big mistake.

"Frank is very bickery with Peter from the get go in S2. Why?"

Thought this was pretty obvious. Frank found out that Millennium was far shadier then he thought. He found out they knew who was taking the pictures. He was understandably pissed. Peter was sort of his partner/friend from Millennium, so that's who recieved the brunt of his anger and frustration over it. Plus, frank knew his involvement with the group is what put Kathryn at risk, so there was some backlash from that as well. This isn't a flaw.

I can understand people not liking the Millennium gruop mass conspiracy stuff. But I liked it. I thought it was well done and interesting. The direction they took it in season 3 however, turning Millennium group evil, I disliked that.

"- the world ending at the end of season 2. I don't think I need to say anything else on this one... "

The season 2 finale was amazing. The problem was how season 3 continued it. We go from a scary and epic ending of season 2 that could potnetially have worked as an actual ending to the entire show, to finding out that the virus was some super minor incident that only killed 70 people in the pacific northwest. That's what killed it. BTW, we're only led to believe the "world ended", you just assumed it. Season 3 could have said a few thousand died, and it would have made sense.

"- Katherine dying. As I said, Meghan was so great on the show, and could've been so much more utilized. Re-watch Katherine and Frank's bond in the first episodes of S1, it's fascinating, and moving. Frank being kicked out of the house in S2 was a bad and weird move with a rather flimsy motivation. "

Again, SPOT ON about him moving out. I thought Katerine dying was a nice move though, very surprising, made for some awesome new area for them to take Frank. How does he deal with that? This wasn't that bad of a thing.

"-S3 is not that bad considering."

Really? Sheeze. I'm about 6 or 7 episodes into it and so far only a couple have been good, and none have been great(well that's not true, Lucy Butler episode ruled). The two part opener was a complete mess, some of the most nonsensical garbage I've ever seen. It is the first time the Millennium gruop has made ZERO sense whatsoever. I have no idea what they were thinkin with that two parter, did they honestly think that would go over well? I just can't get over how dumb and nonsensical it was. Toatwaki is pretty forgettable. The KISS episode failed. Closure is an otherwise good episode that is REALLY hurt by the cringeworthy and unbelievable crap they throw in at the end with these two guys taking on an entire police dept. wearing nothin but riot helmets and bullet proof vests. Somehow they don't get shot in the arm, somehow only one gets killed and even that takes a long time. Dumb. Collateral Damage has the most unbelievble, hokiest, cringeowrhty moment in the history of the show with the neck snap in the end, ruining an otherwise AWESOME episode. So far, there hasn't been any great/creepy serial killer episodes, which to me was what made the show truly great. The themes of good vs evil, the world ending, etc. mixed in with super creepy, freaky serial killer stuff was incredible. That's what made the show special, that's why season 1 is the best, it had the most of that. So far, season 2 had more of it then s3 does.

"BUT admittedly they had to deal with the mess Wong and Morgan left them in that a) Peter Watts is now bad"

I fail to see how making Peter bad(how making the Millennium group bad for that matter) equals "dealing with the mess Wong and Morgon left). Seriously, can someone explain this to me? It was the season 3 writers who decided to make Millennium bad. All season 2 established was that the group only cares about the WHOLE, not the individual, which was creepy but also very interesting. Season 2 left you wondering whether they were good or not, it left it up to interpretation, it was left open.

The idiot writers of season 3 decided, for some bizarre reason, to make Millennium responsible for the virus(which makes NO sense at all, just mindblowingly dumb). That was ALL them. People say they were fixing the mess of season 2, but an even bigger mess was created in season 3! Why do I seem to be one of the few who realizes this?

"but the addition of Emma Hollis was great."

I liked her character, however she became too much of a sidekick. Frank had worked with others before, but he also frequently would work on his own, he'd take the lead on things, never felt like he had someone right at his side all the time helping him out.

I can understand the season 2 criticism, with all the conspiracy stuff and whatnot, but I thought it was awesome, the Millennium group's long history and all the religious stuff was very interesting. Plus, it got you thinkin, "what is Millennium gruop REALLY about?" That was awesome. I dug it. Plus, we still got a number of great, very creepy serial killer type episodes. Oh, and Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense? INCREDIBLE!

From what I've seen so far, season 3 is where the series fails. From the opening two parter it's clear the writers have no idea what they're doing. It makes ZERO sense where they take the group. Many of the episodes in the early part of the season are FULL of cringeworthy, hokey, flatout dumb stuff. There seems to be a serious lack of scary serial killer stuff.

[–] narbo 15 years ago

Nice, Dingus! Great reply, lot of interesting points. I think the reason I personally like S3 better than S2 is because it feels like the tone is back, the atmosphere. True, there are not a lot of serial killer stories, but are there really that many in S2? A few, but less than S1. I think having Emma helped restore the tone because she was a naive rookie in many ways, and that sort of character always suggests someone who is going to represent YOU the audience as you enter this world. It's the perfect move for a show that knows it's going off track. I think it reminded us who Frank Black was. Frank has a lot of bad lines in S2 that seem out of character for the tough, quiet guy in S1 , ie in a single blade of grass (still an awesome episode: "I should warn you Doctor, what you're about to see is very disturbing" - Frank Black doesn't apologize for the darkness in the world. Little touches like that accumulate until the show misses the mark. They're minor, but I'm picking up on it more and more, and all those small nuances do add up.

In S2 look at 'Monster' when Katherine is talking to Peter about her and Frank's marriage. She is very hostile, whereas if you recall in S1 when Frank went missing, Peter was very kind and he and Katherine bonded. It's stuff like that on the Morgan and Wong stuff that seems very contrived. I, personally, feel they didn't really understand their characters. Katherine blames the Millennium group for ruining her marriage, it's a complete stretch. Even when Laura shows up, she's talking about the group like she, on the one hand works for them, but on the other, is investigating them to see if they are bad. Frank has this same attitude in S2, but does that make sense: " I'm working for them to do good...but I can't tell if they're the bad guys". It doesn't quite make sense. I know S2 only suggests the the group MIGHT be bad, but where do you go with that in S3? It sort of forces your hand one way or another, whereas I think not going there could've prevented some of the nonsense in S3.

I totally agree that there are many great storylines in S2, but I think there is a handful of great episodes in all of the seasons, moreso in S1. In fact there's a better handful of episodes in S2 than S3, but S3 is true to who the characters are a bit more. I know people may LIKE the ending of S2, but I'm saying for a team of writers to come in on S3 after the world has supposedly been decimated (sp?) is a tough chore, and it certainly leaves a mess in your lap.

Dingus make sure you watch the end of S3, what they do with Emma is totally screwed up, but interesting. If the show had gone on it would've taken things into interesting places.

[–] DingusStudley 15 years ago

" I think the reason I personally like S3 better than S2 is because it feels like the tone is back, the atmosphere. "

It definitely doesn't have that atmosphere early on. The Lucy Butler episode, Collateral up until the ending, and the child molester episode(forgot about this one, this one is fantastic) have that dark, foreboding, creepy atmosphere we expect from this show. BUt other then that, I'm not seeing it thus far.

" ie in a single blade of grass (still an awesome episode: "I should warn you Doctor, what you're about to see is very disturbing" - Frank Black doesn't apologize for the darkness in the world."

Did we ever see him exposing a horrific crime scene to someone outside of law enforcement at any time in season 1? He's dark and tough, but he's also a respectful, nice man. He could have just been being courteous.

"Frank has this same attitude in S2, but does that make sense: " I'm working for them to do good...but I can't tell if they're the bad guys". It doesn't quite make sense. I know S2 only suggests the the group MIGHT be bad"

He realizes they do a lot of good. In no other position is he able to deal with serial killers and all the evil in the world as effectively as when he's with Millennium. That's why he stuck with them, despite his suspicions and concerns. I thought it made for a very interesting story arc. Not to mention, a big part of season 2 is him slowly realizing Millennium may not be all they seem, his suspicion builds throughout season 2. It wasn't like it started off with him thinkin they're bad. And even when he makes the decision to quit(which was VERY difficult for him to do), he never fully decides WHAT they are. He just knows they're secretive, possibly care more about controlling the world than saving it, and knows the danger they pose to his marriage/family(not physically, but as far as causing stress that could break them up goes). He was definitely conflicted in season 2, but I just thought that made the show even better.

"I know S2 only suggests the the group MIGHT be bad, but where do you go with that in S3? It sort of forces your hand one way or another, whereas I think not going there could've prevented some of the nonsense in S3. "

To begin with, season 2 suggests the group might not be entirely good. I wouldn't say it suggests they might be all out BAD. I could be wrong, but I remember there being 2 main concerns with the Millennium group in season 2. First, they care more about control then saving the world, they use their knowledge of the end of the world and all that jazz to control people. Second, they aren't concerned with the individual, only mankind as a whole.

I thought this made Millennium FAR more interesting. It created a situation where the viewer doesn't know WHAT they are. Are they good, bad, somewhere in between(this one for sure haha)??? It wasn't cut and dried.

Why did season 3 not continue on with this? They didn't have to go one way or the other, season 2 left things open, completely up in the air. They could have continued having Millennium walk along this shaky line between good and evil, between helping the world and merely trying to control it.

Instead, season 3 chose to make them completely evil. THere was no in between. There was nothing left up to the audience to decide for themselves, make up their own mind, form their own opinion. No, the two part opener of season 3 establishes that Millennium released the virus to intentionally murder people, then hunted down an entire family to assassinate them(their reason for doing this is never fully explained, but I already ranted on how nonsensical and pisspoor these episodes were in another thread).

If they were going to turn them bad/evil, why not make it less cut and dried? Why not slowly build into it?

How more entertaining/interesting would it have been if Frank started out suspecting Millennium of all this evil, but he turns out to be wrong. Slowly throughout the season, his suspicions grow, but again and again it amounts to nothing. Until near the end, we FINALLY get confirmation that yes, Frank WAS indeed on to something, and Millennium is far darker and worse then everyone thought. Instead, from the opening two parter season 3 tells us Millennium is indeed bad. No buildup. No nothing. Frank makes outrageous accusations based on zero evidence, fueled ONLY by his anger, and instead of doing the cool/interesting thing by challenging Frank's suspicions and making the audience continue to question/wonder for themselves, they flat out come out and tell us exactly what the deal is, Millennium = murderous, virus releasing, bad guys.

Lame.

That was ALL season 3's doing. THEY dropped the ball. Don't act like they were written into a corner, they weren't. Season 2 left SOOOO many possibilities open. And again, even if you feel there was no other choice but to make Millennium out and out bad/evil, there were FARRRRRR better ways of going about that then the direction season 3 chose.

" I know people may LIKE the ending of S2, but I'm saying for a team of writers to come in on S3 after the world has supposedly been decimated (sp?) is a tough chore, and it certainly leaves a mess in your lap. "

In the season 2 finale virus episode(s), there was a line of dialogue saying the virus left mysteriously and quickly without a trace(years ago in that earlier outbreak). I remember something to that effect. It would not have been hard to continue things on RIGHT from where season 2 left off without creating plot holes or doing away with elements of season 2. Say it mysteriously left again, say the Group was able to get a handle on it, say only a few thousand people died, or hell, say 100,000 people died. Just cuz season 2 had an apocolyptic ending, doesn't mean the world actually ended. Just means things got pretty damn screwed up haha.

There's no excuse for suddenly saying only 70 people died. There's no reason to suddenly say, "uh oh, we HAVE to make the group responsible for this virus!". All season 2 said was Millennium knew about it and had a small amount of vaccine to protect its members. How you go from that to, "season 2 left a massive mess in our lap, and the only way to solve it is to have Millennium an evil group responsible for the virus" is beyond me.

I just flat out don't see the "mess" so many people speak of when they talk about the effects of season 2 and what season 3 had to work with.

"Dingus make sure you watch the end of S3"

I definitely will. I have no intention of not watching rest of the show. I've heard a lot of people say they gave up after the KISS episode, that's bogus. Season 3 isn't completely terrible, those folks are missing out on some good episodes.

[–] mistamajestyk 14 years ago

When the show was originally aired on TV, I watched all of season 1 and was hooked. For one reason or another, I didn't get around to seasons 2 or 3, but recently, I picked up the complete DVD set and have avidly been watching. I think I can see both sides of the debate here. As I'm nearing the end of season 2, (haven't watched 3 yet) it's obvious that Morgan/Wong went in a very different direction. I feel a bit disappointed in a sense, because it seems they were bringing too much of the X-Files to the show, except now instead of a governmental conspiracy it's a religious one.

Also, I felt like the Peter Watts character took a 180 degree turn right from the get go in season 2. His attitude and motivations seemed so different, I thought I had missed an episode, or something.

To me, it seems like maybe Fox was pressuring Carter to tone down the content of the show, that it was too dark for network television. I know he had alot on his plate during this time, so it's unfortunate that he wasn't around to watch over everything. (on the DVD features, he says he hasn't even seen all the S2 episodes!)I really enjoy the Morgan/Wong stuff, but they don't have the same impact as S1. In fact, last night I watched "A Room With No View", which follows the Lucy Butler character once again, and I felt like this was one of the few episodes in S2 to match what was happening earlier on the show.

"Zombies, man.....they creep me out."

[–] Cherubim1 14 years ago

Chris "ego-head" Carter should have let Morgan and Wong produce Season 3 given the incredible mythology and themes they presented in Season 2. Instead, viewers were subjected to a very watered-down Season 3 that offered no continuity from Season 2 and lacked intensity.

Chris Carter might be good at creating characters and pitching ideas into action but he has no respect for people who build on his ideas and exceed them. If one looks at Season 3 they will see that Carter tried to divorce himself from Season 2 completely and even had the nerve to state that Season 2 went in a direction he didn't want. He made Morgan and Wong executive producers for christssake! - they had complete creative control and did an admirable and thankless job.

They (Morgan and Wong) also helped get the X-Files off the ground with some truly memorable episodes in Seasons 1-4 but alas, Chris Carter seems to have amnesia about those who help him.

Carter is a total jackass and it was he alone that ruined MillenniuM in its final season.

[–] sisterdebmac 14 years ago

Yep, absolutely right.
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[–] millenniumgroup 14 years ago

It's a fact Morgan and Wang killed the show. Season 1 is superior to season 2 it's so obvious.

"Wait!" "Worry" "Who Cares?"

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[–] sisterdebmac 14 years ago

WONG, damnit! If you're going to insult the man at least get his name right. And you are flat-out wrong. Chris Carter killed it with his ridiculously all-over-the-place Season 3. The Kiss ep was the death knell. Obviously.
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[–] millenniumgroup 14 years ago

Did you even watch the last episode of season 2? They tried to kill millennium completly by that horrendous mtv-of-the-week episode. I spelled his name wrong on purpose, not exactly a brainer is it.

Chris Carter tried to resurrect the show what was left of it after the 2 morons works and their horrendous last episode.

Season 1 is far superior to season 2. But to their defense s2 holds a few excellent episodes. Too bad only Carter understands Millennium and of course Lance. Here's a free hint watch the excellent behind the scenes on season 2 and 3 and hear the cast own thoughts on M&W work, or better Lance himself.

Millennium wasn't X-Files or tried to be, Millennium wasn't a ghost show, Carter knew that M&W didn't....

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[–] DingusStudley 14 years ago

"They tried to kill millennium completly by that horrendous mtv-of-the-week episode."

MTV because of the LONG, Horses bit when lara dies? While I agree that went on a bit too long, it hardly ruins the whole episode or renders it some MTV garbage. Dumb criticism.

And that episode hardly killed millennium. As I've pointed out many times before, there were still plenty of directions left to go, other then, "that deadly, horrifying epidemic from last season, well that was just a small incident that the Group itself used to target people it wanted dead. No biggie!".

Seriously, how did season 2 kill things off? I don't get it. You realize that cliffhanger finale didn't FOR SURE, outright establish that the apocolypse had occured and all of mankind would parish from this epidemic right? There were PLENTY of directions that could have been taken. Season 3 decided on the worst possible one.

"Chris Carter tried to resurrect the show what was left of it after the 2 morons works and their horrendous last episode."

It wasn't wrecked. And even if you hated the direction season 2 went in, season 3 went about "resurrecting" things in the worst way possible. The first half of season 3 is atrocious. The nonsensical, bizarre, outlandish 2 part season opener establishes how bad things are in the early bit of season 3. It could/should have been handled MUCHHHHH better.

"Here's a free hint watch the excellent behind the scenes on season 2 and 3 and hear the cast own thoughts on M&W work, or better Lance himself. "

I could care less whether the cast liked season 2 haha. As a viewer, the first season is by FAR the greatest, then season 2(which ruled), then season 3(which ended incredibly strong after a shakey/crappy first half). Seriously, who cares what Lance says? If George Lucas or the dude who voices C-3PO(he was in all 6 movies right?) tells me the prequel trilogy is just as good, that doesn't automatically make it so.

[–] remnantsaflame-1 14 years ago

then season 3(which ended incredibly strong after a shakey/crappy first half).

Ah, so you got to the end? (I see from some of your earlier posts that at one point, you hadn't made it all the way through season 3.) Yes, the reconfigured production crew got the hang of it in the second half and turned out some damn strong episodes, and I was blown away by the finale, which at the outset of the season, I didn't think was going to happen.

I thought the show was done with "...Thirteen Years Later" (the Kiss episode). I thought that was the Jump The Shark moment. I think it actually would've played off better later in the season. When they were rebuilding the show, when we weren't used to the idea of Frank of being back with the FBI or Emma Hollis or the rest of the new supporting cast (McClaren, Baldwin, etc.), it didn't make sense to suddenly do such a silly, self-referential episode like that. (That could only ever wish it were a Darin Morgan episode, but that's a whole other issue ...)

[–] DingusStudley 14 years ago

"Ah, so you got to the end? (I see from some of your earlier posts that at one point, you hadn't made it all the way through season 3.) Yes, the reconfigured production crew got the hang of it in the second half and turned out some damn strong episodes, and I was blown away by the finale, "

Yeah I was watchin em on chiller network, and they were only that far into season 3 when I posted my criticism and worries. I kept watching though of course. I agree 100% about the finale. Season 3 finale is MINDBLOWINGLY good, just incredible. I think I posted in another season 3 related thread about how much I loved it and how great it was. It was fantastic. The scene where the killer is sitting on the couch with his victims on either side of him, as if he were watchin tv with friends/family is so unforgettable and chillingly creepy, amazing stuff all around.

[–] millenniumgroup 14 years ago

@DingusStudley

MTV because of the LONG, Horses bit when lara dies? While I agree that went on a bit too long, it hardly ruins the whole episode or renders it some MTV garbage. Dumb criticism.

There's NOTHING "millenniumistic" (is that a word?) about the last 2 episodes of season 2, hell most of Laura Means story/episodes are beyond stupid and really really want's the viewer to suck into this whole iluminati. Granted I did enjoy Laura to some extent, but her entire outbreak/crazy is beyond stupid and silly, this is millennium not some light ass joss whedon garbage.

And that episode hardly killed millennium. As I've pointed out many times before, there were still plenty of directions left to go, other then, "that deadly, horrifying epidemic from last season, well that was just a small incident that the Group itself used to target people it wanted dead. No biggie!".

Incorrect statement, if you watch the episode you will see it seems the world at least southern/nothern continents of USA have been targeted. Also pay close attention to the last 2 episodes and their names, they've all been quoting the dreaded plauge from the bible, as in the end of the world.

Seriously, how did season 2 kill things off? I don't get it. You realize that cliffhanger finale didn't FOR SURE, outright establish that the apocolypse had occured and all of mankind would parish from this epidemic right? There were PLENTY of directions that could have been taken. Season 3 decided on the worst possible one.

No, I certainly don't agree, in my opinion M&W tried to kill of the show with the last 2 episodes of Season 2, that's blatantly obvious to me and everyone else I know, back in 98 I almost trew my remote at the tv cursing the one's responsible for the 2 worst episodes of the millennium universe.

It wasn't wrecked. And even if you hated the direction season 2 went in, season 3 went about "resurrecting" things in the worst way possible. The first half of season 3 is atrocious. The nonsensical, bizarre, outlandish 2 part season opener establishes how bad things are in the early bit of season 3. It could/should have been handled MUCHHHHH better.

I agree on what you said about Season 3 (half), but you have to remember Chris Carter didn't have much left to work with, Catherine'S death, millenniumgroup turning crazy (another M&W stupidity), etc. The first season looks and feel a LOT better then season 2 and 3, visualy and story arc wise in my opinion. Everything I loved about the first season is pretty much gone in the 2nd one, except for Frank Black and some levels of the group (intact). That's one of the reasons a lot of the regulars left the show during season 2 (who can blame them). Millennium (quote CC) supposed to have been a crime story with certain "milleniumistic" elements, like a modern CSI, nothing else, nothing more.

BUT!!! BUT!!! One of the BEST episodes who I love personally are all featured on season 2, I can count at least 10-15 episodes of s2 which I belive stands out being the best episodes of any tv show. Maybe M&W should have worked with CC during the seasons for a more better variety.

Season 2 showed us the group from the inside, but there was way too much hookus pokus for my liking, and once more I don't belive for a second the group would have been responsible for a viral outbreak, that's all M&W

Season 3 pretty much made the group and Peter Watts seem evil (hated that, really really really hated that)

I could care less whether the cast liked season 2 haha. As a viewer, the first season is by FAR the greatest, then season 2(which ruled), then season 3(which ended incredibly strong after a shakey/crappy first half). Seriously, who cares what Lance says? If George Lucas or the dude who voices C-3PO(he was in all 6 movies right?) tells me the prequel trilogy is just as good, that doesn't automatically make it so.

Sorry you feel that, I care very much what the MAIN actor of the show thinks about his own work and co-workers. I hope you will meet Lance one day and you'll see what a truly charming wonderful person he really is :)

M&W declining to participate really tells you a lot if you ask me, they are adults they should have been on the documentary, yet they declined.

Pardon my english, hopefully you can look past my grammar and lack of words, and still understand my meaning! Regardless of our opinions, I'm still happy to have had this argument with a millennium fan like yourself sir, maybe M&W could work with CC and make a millennium movie, man that would have been awesome.

remnantsaflame-1

I respect that season two isn't to your liking (I think very highly of it), but I think you give Chris Carter too much credit. If Millennium really were his precious baby, why did he entrust the second season to other people? (I know the official answer is, "He was working on the first X-Files feature film," but really, if he had such a specific vision of what Millennium should be, don't you think he'd want to take some precautions to make sure that it wasn't straying from that?)

The whole Chris Carter way of doing things was to sell a network a pilot and get them to order some episodes and put it on the air, and wing it from there. That's what he did with both X-Files and Millennium.

Please don't misunderstand my opinion on Season 2, like i've said before (above) most of the BEST episodes comes from season 2. I loved most of the aspects of s2, but a lot of what I loved and everyone else from season 1 is pretty much gone except for Frank himself. CC did a heck of a lot more than that, he supervised almost the entire season 1, it was his work along with his friends/authors. I agree though he shouldn't have given full responsebility to M&W without some sort of insight.

In my opinion Millennium would have lasted easily for 10 years if they had followed the same formula from season 1 OR if CC and M&W would have worked TOGETHER on all seasons!.

I still consider All 3 seasons to be the best show in television history (up there with twin peaks, the wire etc), it's like 3 diff directors had their own views and take on millenniums 3 seasons <--- that's both positive and negative, like the excellent alien movies, 4 diff directors (4th one was horrendous).

The episode where Frank visits Pete's home with a pistol is VERY powerful, sad and really really destroyed what little they had left of their friendship, but it also turned me away from the show and their lovely relationship from season 1 and early season 2.

Dammit, i'm so frustrated..... seriously make a movie already,,,, get Carter, get Morgon and get *beep* Wong!

Again pardon my english, hopefully you can both understand what i'm trying to say here :)

Thank You

"Wait!" "Worry" "Who Cares?"

www.alienexperience.com
tiwwa.info/

[–] DingusStudley 14 years ago

First off, i wanna apologize for all my quotting/rebuking. I realize it could come across as nitpicky or annoying, like I'm tryin to debate every point you make. I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, this is just how I do things haha. Don't take it as me trying to be an ass rather then simply engaging in a friendly, lively debate.

"Incorrect statement, if you watch the episode you will see it seems the world at least southern/nothern continents of USA have been targeted. Also pay close attention to the last 2 episodes and their names, they've all been quoting the dreaded plauge from the bible, as in the end of the world. "

It "seems". That's an important word. As was stated earlier in the episode, the virus had mysteriously left without a trace before. Things were left in the air in the season 2 finale.

People have said the writers/producers/etc. weren't sure there would be a season 3. It makes sense then that they'd make a season finale episode that could serve as both an end to the entire show, but could ALSO easily leave things open for another season. It could(and does) go either way.

I don't think episode titles hold THAT much importance.

"No, I certainly don't agree, in my opinion M&W tried to kill of the show with the last 2 episodes of Season 2, that's blatantly obvious to me and everyone else I know, back in 98 I almost trew my remote at the tv"

Again, I don't see how they were trying to "kill" off the show. From what I understand, they had no idea if there'd be a 3rd season, so they did a finale that could serve all purposes. If it's the end, it works. If there'll be a season 3, then it works as a great cliffhanger. You say "back in 98", that confuses me a bit. It makes sense you might hate the episode at the time, cuz you thought it had just ended the whole series. But once you saw there'd be a season 3, why were you still pissed at season 2 finale? I don't get it. Shouldn't that have alleviated any feelings you had about the show being killed off?

" 2 worst episodes of the millennium universe."

That would be the 2 part season opener of season 3 haha. How ANYONE could think the season 2 finalie episodes are worst then those(as well as several other episodes), is beyond me. Outrageous.

"millenniumgroup turning crazy "

Season 2 merely established that there was much more to the Group then we were originally led to believe, and raised questions about how good they truly did for the world. That's it. It was season 3 that came along and decided, "hey, screw all the interesting mystique and history and stuff season 2 set up, let's just have the Group be outright EVIL!" Dumb. Season 3 did worst with the Group. Season 2's handling of it wasn't that bad.

Even if you hated the conspiracy stuff, and I definitely can understnad how someone could dislike it, it still beats season 3s lame uninteresting, lazy, over simplified, "group = evil" crap, which clashes even more with what season 1 originally established then season 2 had.

"I don't belive for a second the group would have been responsible for a viral outbreak"

Season 3 established this though, not season 2.

"Season 3 pretty much made the group and Peter Watts seem evil (hated that, really really really hated that) "

No "seem evil" about it. Season 3, from the 2 part opener on, says that the Group assassinates people(innocent little girls even). It's revealed that Watts himself was responsible for making the decision to test out the virus on american troops in the gulf war. One of the top dogs in the Group is revealed to be a shapeshifter(and we all know what that means due to Lucy Butler, it's either a demon or satan himself). The Group is pure evil in season 3.

"I hope you will meet Lance one day and you'll see what a truly charming wonderful person he really is :) "

haha I don't deny he's a charming, wonderful person. I love the guy, one of my favorite actors. If he said he prefers the simplistic season 3 over the far more interesting season 2, that is an interesting thing to know. However it's not going to sway my own feelings about the episodes. haha a lot of Simpsons writers voice actors feel the show is just as good now as it ever was, doesn't change what I unfortunately see almost every sunday nowadays.

[–] remnantsaflame-1 14 years ago

Too bad only Carter understands Millennium

I respect that season two isn't to your liking (I think very highly of it), but I think you give Chris Carter too much credit. If Millennium really were his precious baby, why did he entrust the second season to other people? (I know the official answer is, "He was working on the first X-Files feature film," but really, if he had such a specific vision of what Millennium should be, don't you think he'd want to take some precautions to make sure that it wasn't straying from that?)

The whole Chris Carter way of doing things was to sell a network a pilot and get them to order some episodes and put it on the air, and wing it from there. That's what he did with both X-Files and Millennium.

[–] sisterdebmac 14 years ago

You are EXACTLY right, Remnants.
______________________
Let me tell you a little story. You're an idiot!

[–] remnantsaflame-1 14 years ago

So are you. You see precisely what I see. ;)

[–] DougDumbrille 14 years ago

I see that a couple of people need to get a life. It was just a freakin' tv show, not Shakespeare.

Sheesh.

[–] sisterdebmac 14 years ago

Um, you're here too so maybe you should heed your own advice you judgmental jerk.
______________________
Let me tell you a little story. You're an idiot!

[–] remnantsaflame-1 14 years ago

I see that a couple of people need to get a life. It was just a freakin' tv show, not Shakespeare.

Something tells me you wouldn't actually think that Shakespeare is worth talking about, either. :D

[–] Wolverine37 14 years ago

While your contention rwt Carter's process is most certainly true (at least at the onset, after X-Files was somewhat established he and the writing staff laid out a comprehensive 5 season plan), I find your contention that he abandoned Millennium ridiculous. The X-Files movie isn't an excuse, it was a perfectly valid reason for what he did... even the cast of TXF could barely find the time to shoot the series around the film schedule. Wong and Morgan were very trusted X-Files writers and after their epically successful planning of season 4, Carter entrusted with Millennium.

I do not believe they intentionally stomped on Carter's vision for the series. They wanted to make the show they wanted to make and they took some of Carter's ideas and expanded on them to create their own unique vision. However, that vision is largely incompatible with what came before it and that caused some hard feelings and a lot of debate.

[–] alcibiades-3 14 years ago

Wolverine said:

Wong and Morgan were very trusted X-Files writers and after their epically successful planning of season 4, Carter entrusted with Millennium.

Although I agree with much of what you've said, I think it's worth pointing out that M&W were not much involved in planning season 4 of XF. They had been absent for all of season 3 as they were working on Space: Above & Beyond. When they came back to XF (which was a contractual thing with Fox - they agreed to work on a half-season on XF and MM in return for Fox producing the pilot of "The Notorious"), they felt that they had been left behind and didn't quite belong there. An interview Glen Morgan gave includes this:

His own scenario for plotting out the season was somewhat different from what Carter and the other writers came up with this year, but the fundamental issue was the same: trust. "I would have slowly split Mulder and Scully up over the course of the season, then in the last episode have Scully put Mulder away for his own good, which he would perceive as the ultimate betrayal," Morgan said.

I hate to think what XF fans' reactions would have been if that scenario had played out.

But I think your last point...

I do not believe they intentionally stomped on Carter's vision for the series. They wanted to make the show they wanted to make and they took some of Carter's ideas and expanded on them to create their own unique vision.

... is spot on. They were given (by whom depends - as you said elsewhere, it depends on which interview is believed) the opportunity to take the show in the direction they wanted. Online reaction to that at the time is something that might linger still:

Season 1: Love this show!

Season 2: Hate this show now, it's not like it was. -v- Love this show, it's Morgan & Wong.

The whole online situation wasn't helped by certain MM staff people posting to the online MM newsgroup, which meant that little other than fawning respect was acceptable. Unfortunately, since then, I have no way of knowing whether people are talking about MM in light of the discussions back then, or if they're viewing MM completely oblivious to the past history.

[–] Wolverine37 14 years ago

You are indeed right about M&W's work on The X-Files in season 4. You've shamed me!

You bring up another interesting point, though... a great number of people who adore season 2 seem to be more into the fact that it was M&W than anything. They have a very dedicated fanbase (anyone who believes The Field Where I Died was a great X-Files episode has to be pretty devoted) and I've often wondered what the reaction to season 2 would have been if Chip Johannessen, for example, had taken over and gone in the same direction M&W did.

[–] alcibiades-3 14 years ago

No-one could be blamed for not having detailed knowledge of every on-screen and off-screen detail of 1013 shows. I do have a lot of detailed stuff on my computer, but for me it's a case of thinking up relevant search strings to find it.

You've raised an interesting what-if question about season 2 if Chip J had gone down the route that M&W had - and that's a difficult what-if because I doubt very much that it would have happened on Chip's watch. Where the past history of the Group as established in season 2 was referenced in season 3, I can only see that as an attempt at some continuity. It's interesting that the season 3 episode that mostly references the Group's past - "Matryoshka" - reinvented the Group as something that J Edgar Hoover started. I have the same reaction to Matryoshka as I do to Hand of St Sebastian. It's drama for the sake of drama.

I don't think the fan reaction to the "mythology" of season 2 would have been the same if it wasn't M&W, because without the M&W/Reindl&Maher fans on the newsgroup (where most of the discussion took place at that time), the online fan reaction would not have been kind.

Positive fan reaction to "The Field" mostly includes support from Duchovny fans, despite it being pretty obvious that not only had M&W lost sight of the characters during their absence from XF, they'd also lost sight of Duchovny's strengths/weaknesses, so they assigned a role to him that didn't work, and that's a pity because it could have worked so much better. But I also have the sneaky impression that "The Field" was actually more about showcasing Kristen Cloke, who was very convincing in her role(s), as she also was as Lara Means (until the meltdown, which had little to do with the show, but more to do with the "drama for the sake of drama").

The DVD's extras shed a little light on the behind-the-scenes aspects, and a transcript of the season 2 extras can be found at:

http://www.chelonium.plus.com/mm/Season2Documentary.html

[–] remnantsaflame-1 14 years ago

alcibiades-3, I'm fascinated by the history lesson that you've provided, in terms of what went on behind-the-scenes while Morgan and Wong moved from show-to-show (for instance, I've never heard of The Notorious - that's a really interesting tidbit), and the Millennium newsgroup during the show's run. (I'd love to find and read the discussions of the time, but Google Groups isn't easy to navigate.)

Can't say for sure where Chip would've taken Season 2 had he been in charge. I do like a lot of what was done with him at the helm in the second half of Season 3, but it's a different animal than Morgan and Wong's Season 2. What I find characterizes their work is a certain whimsical quality. Chip's stuff is more aggressive.

"Matryoshka" was a very pale attempt at quasi-noir cloak-and-dagger historifiction. It was an awkward fit for the show. They shouldn't have contradicted and ignored what had come before like that, whether or not you liked Morgan and Wong's Millenium Group mythology.

You wonder if and how those currently debating the show relate to those in the online fan community during the show's run, and suggested that Season 2 fans wouldn't have liked it if it wasn't Morgan and Wong. On both points, I can only answer for myself. I'd never seen the show until 2008-2009, during which I saw every episode, from the first to the last. I went into it with an open mind, and fell in love with Season Two. I regard Morgan and Wong highly because of their work, not the other way around. (I'd seen one of the Final Destination movies and Black Christmas before, and certainly wasn't already a fan from those.)

I laughed out loud when I read your take on "Field Where I Died". A few months ago, I rewatched it for the first time after watched all of Millennium, and was like, "Oh, it's Lara Means!" Morgan and Wong were clearly championing her, for whatever reason.

[–] remnantsaflame-1 14 years ago

Wolverine37 wrote:

While your contention rwt Carter's process is most certainly true (at least at the onset, after X-Files was somewhat established he and the writing staff laid out a comprehensive 5 season plan), I find your contention that he abandoned Millennium ridiculous. The X-Files movie isn't an excuse, it was a perfectly valid reason for what he did... even the cast of TXF could barely find the time to shoot the series around the film schedule. Wong and Morgan were very trusted X-Files writers and after their epically successful planning of season 4, Carter entrusted with Millennium.

That seems accurate enough - it seems that you know a bit more of the behind-the-scenes story than I do. But, I think you obfuscated my original point: that, for a guy who made a career as a showrunner and saw to it that "created by Chris Carter" adorned all of his productions, he wasn't exactly a person who had stories that he was burning to tell. He never had long-range visions. Sure, the reality was that he couldn't be in two places at once, but it's not liked he'd written, or at least mapped out, all of Millennium in the meticulous, detailed way a show like Lost is, only to have Morgan and Wong scrap his plans and do their own thing.

I do not believe they intentionally stomped on Carter's vision for the series. They wanted to make the show they wanted to make and they took some of Carter's ideas and expanded on them to create their own unique vision. However, that vision is largely incompatible with what came before it and that caused some hard feelings and a lot of debate.

Except for the "largely incompatible with what came before it" part (which, as you know, I disagree with), that's pretty much a completely objective statement. Good work. :)

[–] waspfan33 14 years ago

IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU THINK...

looking at the group as a whole,its like part of their motivation was to solve these crimes,but also its like they were monitoring evil,like they were looking for reason after reason why their side was just and they were always watching solving and documenting these horrible events so they could be like see? this is why u need us and why we are right and justified doing what we do .

spectre can

suck it.

[–] cancercapricorn2002 14 years ago

To me I think what went wrong with the show is that it was one kinda ahead of its time. If you look at alot of shows like CSI and Criminal Minds, these show have shades of Millennium in them, they can be just as dark and bleak as S1 of Millennium. I think if the show was on now it would be a huge hit. It seems the show just didn't catch on at the time it aired so Fox wanted to x files the show up and S2 and S3 were the result. I don't think Season 2 is bad, it has good aspects to it but the season is very uneven. Season 3 seemed like mostly rejected X files scripts during the 1st part of the season. It did shape up there toward the end. Hated to see this show go off the air. One of my favorites. Hope a movie happens sometime in the near future.

[–] DingusStudley 14 years ago

"If you look at alot of shows like CSI and Criminal Minds, these show have shades of Millennium in them, they can be just as dark and bleak as S1 of Millennium."

BULLLLLLLLLLSHATTTTTT!!!!!

This is some serious hogwash.

I agree otherwise though.

[–] mwhite182 14 years ago

I think it's wrong to say that Chris Carter had no vision on where he wanted the series to go. Lance Henriksen to this day backs Carter up and really wants him involved with a Millennium movie if it ever happens. Morgan and Wong tried taking his character in a different direction but Henriksen decided to remain true to the character and the vision that Carter originally intended. That's the main reason the second season seems kind of uneven.

I demand episode 201 of South Park be uncensored.

[–] JackLint 14 years ago

First, the revelations about the Millennium group make perfect sense. It's said that Frank is a consultant from ep1 on. He becomes a candidate on the strength of his consulting work. He then realizes the group's secrecy is based more on a desire for power than it is on actual security. If you work it backwards, from everything we know about the group at the end of the show, then it all makes good sense. They show their best face to Frank to get him involved enough to not want to back out. They simply overestimate his willingness to put up with the political BS.

Second: The 2nd season of Millennium is one of the strongest seasons of sci-fi TV ever produced imo. The intrigue is palpable, the stories creepy, and the finale out of this world. Yes, it's dark and depressing. Such is life. The whole "killing" and end of the world thing are a result of the producers believing there would be no third season.

And frankly, I wish there hadn't been one.

They hate you if you're clever & despise a fool --Lennon

[–] peterquinn70 13 years ago

What really cheesed me off was the way the Lucy Butler character was treated. The set-up was fantastic, and I thought she was going to be the most evil character ever seen on TV. "Lamentation" was perfect, and the follow-up, "Powers,Principalities, Thrones and Dominions", was one of the most intriguing pieces of television to be shown( and who the hell was Al Pepper supposed to be?). Then...nothing. It's as if they didn't know what to do with Lucy, and swept her under the creative carpet. Arrgh!
But she really knew how to work it in those flimsy summer dresses. Rrrrow!

[–] majandralover30 13 years ago

i don't know if this has been covered, but my big problem was the title. Carter said the title was supposed to just be about a sense of forboding and doom. The millennium and how can one man stop it. Yet originally this was just supposed to set the mood for it. However in season 2 it just seemed they were spoofing religion. Christianity, Judaism, even Native american beliefs, just poking fun at the religious folk. Carter seems to be a fan of impending apocalyptic doomsday scenarios. When you have that and your characters can do little about it, then it takes the fun out of it in so many ways.

[–] keyser_soze_smokes 8 years ago

  

=======================================
Happy birthday to the ground!!!

[–] The_Usurper_Robb_Stark 13 years ago

OK, you went through the the trouble of writing that two years ago, and I did read through it and I agree/disagree with some of your points...but to answer your subject line, "What went wrong with this show," is quite simple - it had no real story arc and thus no real direction.

It's obvious in Season 3 when they try to use sex to keep the audience interested. The first sign of a failing show - ramp up the sex and violence.

Everything I say is backed by science

[–] arusinghnz 11 years ago

I just finished watching the entire series in one sitting over a week of viewing. Also, I know I am late to the game (17yrs later), and the only episode I watched was the demon one when it was broadcast back in the 90s. So, with that in mind here goes nothing....

1. Season 1 was great. Clear concise direction of the with Frank and family. The relationship really worked and I was excited with how it was all playing out.
2. Frank's character was great and a breathe of fresh air since I stopped watching CSI in 2010. A strong broken man getting back in the game.

1. Season 2 was seriously horrible. It broke the centre by breaking up the family. Katherine's character was butchered. A person who works in Social Work does not suddenly throw away the best thing in their live, which was Frank and Jordan. A mother would not break up the unit if it meant hurting the child, Maybe I am wrong in thinking that but it just doesn't make sense.
2. The ending however was good and much was expected in Season 3.

1. Season 3 had a lot of terrible episodes. Episode 6 had factual errors. Cch Pounders character is revealed to have been executed according to Frank, since he tells Hollis that. There is nothing in previous episodes (Season 2.8) which relates to what happened to Cch's arrest in Germany in Season 2.
2. Episode was a horrible let down. The supposed end of the world via Marburg virus only claims 75 deaths and yet nothing is explored. Its like they just thought alright where do we go from here and someone said, I don't know, lets get some Spec scripts in and just forget Season 2.
3. Episode 2 was very good and explained a lot about the identical girls. But ehat I can't figure out is if these girls are the same from Season 2
4. Then the whole mess with Clea's character and Peter is just bizarre. She hates him in one episode and in the next follows his advise. Then challenges him in another episode. There of course that episode where they dig up these in Episode 6 and she finds the murder house and watches it get bulldozed down and doesn't even tell Frank.
5. Season 3, Episode 5 '...Thirteen Years Later', is plain stupid only because the last episode Frank take soff with Jordan in 'Goodbye to All That' and yet this episode tells us that Hollis and Frank are working as normal agents which with Episode 22 makes no sense as she is the new head of the FBI at Quantico and Frank is gone.

I liked the show very much but there were too many in consistencies in Season 3 to make it great. But, Episode 21-2 were great and a nice finished to the series.