A serious question and some remarks regarding the whipping scene...

This message was originally posted on Stars and Stripes which is an MSN group dealing with whipping scenes in mainstream movies/television.. I would like to add that since viewing the scene I'm about to talk about I have taken 270 lashes with Texas bullwhip but my back was not bloody and I was not half-dead. Maybe the whip was not as long... Maybe it's my Mediterranean skin... My whipping was inspired by the movie and how well Jonny Lee Miller handled the whole thing (both his character and his real self as an actor). I look up to him like a God even though I know he was not whipped for real.

This topic is something which has touched my heart and the very depths of my soul for as long as I can remember. I have so many feelings, emotions, and general comments that I would like to share with others of a like mind. Ever since I read the account of Call's whipping in McMurty's book and then watched the scene on DVD I have been lost in reverie. The pics on this site are what alerted it to me. It IS mentioned on wsimd but I thought at the time that it was some old, obscure western series that I would never find.

Long Bill says he would not want to be in Woodrow's shoes - but I would... maybe...

"Gus McCrae fought with himself.... His friend was being whipped to death, and he could do nothing about it" the author says. WRONG! Yes he could! He could not interfere because that would have gotten him shot and not or prevented the whipping but he COULD have bravely volunteered to take 50 of Call's 100 lashes instead of just standing there like a coward. THAT to me is an indication of a noble spirit and a fiercely devoted friend and comrade. Salazar may have refused but Gus still would have been honoured and respected for having volunteered (with gifts it's the willingness to give that counts and not whether the gift is accepted). However, there is something about Salazar's general attitude and demeanor that suggests to me that he would NOT have refused and that the two friends and comrades could have been whipped side by side, sharing their experiences. I KNOW - without ANY trace of doubt in my heart that this is what I would have done had I been in Gus' shoes. Salazar would have been initially shocked but would have eventually commended me on my bravery, fierce loyalty, and profound devotion. He would have told Woodrow how lucky he is to have such a friend and how he should hold on to him for such friends are like rare gems, etc... He then would have ordered me to strip, tied me to another wheel wagon with those nice rawhide thongs, and the punishment would have proceeded.

There is SO much more I'd like to say about this scene in the future when I have more time and am not so rushed. This includes details and lines from the book which are not in the movie. It also includes both praises and criticisms regarding this scene including a description of things I liked and things I didn’t like about it. Also, the book reviewers and movie directors call these adventures and experiences a "rite of passage" or a "transition from adulthood to manhood". Now how is a whipping which can kill you (as Salazar points out numerous times and as we can see by the way Call vacillates between life and death during the next few days - there is so much about his in the book which is not shown in the movie) - anyway, how is such a whipping supposed to serve the above purposes if it can (and according to Salazar usually does) result in death. How is something which can cause death be a "rite of passage"? What are you passing into if you're dead. also, how can it be a "transition from boyhood to manhood" if it's going to prevent you from even making it to manhood or even the next day?

I think that the author seriously OD'd (overdosed) on this whipping. A good 20 lashes with a bullwhip or 50 lashes with a standard issue cat would have served the purpose better. But 100 lashes with a metal-thonged whip? (This latter detail is only mentioned in the book). Let's get real.

I would also like to describe the full account of the whipping as it is described the the book (including thoughts and reactions and many details about the aftermath - including a scene in which an old Indian/Mexican lady rubs ointment into Call's welts for 2 hours and he has to be held down because it burns so much) when I have the time. In the book, the author mentions that the pain of the whipping was much worse AFTER the actual whipping itself then during it (Call was too angry to feel anything at the beginning, then too dumb, then unconscious). The author gives examples of the hell fire he felt on his back afterwards. This is how sunburns work too, you know - you don't really feel it till afterwards. There are also additional remarks made by Salazar to Call prior to the whipping which are not in the movie.

I could say more about the Dead Man's walk scene (like the sexy body of Call and the way in which he is tied up and the look of utter defiance and anger in his face, etc...) but all that has already been said in previous posts.

Incidentally, the Mexican General (named Dimasio) who ordered the whipping but was not present for it was later ambushed by a group of savage Indians and suffered a cruel, agonizing, and gruesome death at their hands (he had his chest cavity opened and had hot coals poured into it). Colonel Cobb, whom Call had attacked somewhat brashly albeit for good reasons (and which led to him being sentenced to 100 lashes), was in the buggy with the general and wound up being burned alive. He was a charred corpse when they found him. In addition, Captain Salazar, who oversaw the whipping, had become so weakened by hunger, thirst, and bad water during the march through the desert that he had calmly ordered his own death (although no one obliged him - despite the fact that they all wanted to kill him earlier when he was stronger). He eventually splits from the company and probably winds up pining away in the desert. Thus, it seems that God or Providence or whatever is out there governing the universe winds up providing quite a retribution for young Call’s tormentors. Don’t get me wrong. It’s not to see young, handsome, men being tied up and whipped - but when the whipping is that brutal and resembles torture then I take some comfort knowing that the tormentors have suffered retribution. Had the whipping been of a different and less brutal nature (officer ordering moderate to severe whipping to naughty soldier like in "Chuka") then I would have regarded the officer as a benevolent and paternalistic figure who wants to make a man out of the soldier. That is not exactly the case here.

There is also a scene in which Call once again (along with his companions) winds up being tied with "rawhide thongs" before continuing the march through the desert so that they cannot escape.

One final remark (or question rather... assuming I haven’t lost you all yet): If you guys (and I am specifically addressing the male members of this message board... sorry girls although you may feel free to place comments) were in Gus' shoes (or boots) would you have volunteered to take 50 of the 100 lashes of Call's sentence, thus reducing his sentence to 50 and saving him from serious harm and possible death? Would you be brave enough and have a spirit, love, loyalty, and devotion strong enough and fierce enough to make such a sacrifice for your dear buddy? I know I definitely would as I’ve mentioned above. Such an act would serve to seal or even consecrate the bond of our friendship. Watching my buddy being whipped like that would be a much worse and more unbearable suffering than anything the lash itself could inflict upon me. It would be like having my very heart stabbed repeatedly. I would like to hear replies from the rest of you. I would rather endure the lash than suffer a completely nervous breakdown and eventually die of a broken heart from having witnessed my dear friend take such a whipping without doing anything about it.

As you can see, this particular book/movie has unleashed some very strong and powerful feelings and emotions within me - some of them mixed. What I have described here is merely the tip of the iceberg of emotions within me. I could say more but this is supposed to be a message and not a dissertation. I could also go into endless digressions and other minute details and comparisons of this whipping to other whippings (both from a visual and from an audio standpoint) but I’ll save those discussions for separate topics. I have all these feelings despite the fact that I know that McCurty’s book is really just an example of pulp (popular) fiction and that it is NOT based on a true story (he even says at the beginning of the book that this is a work of fiction and that any resemblance, blah, blah, blah...). Thus there never even was such a person as Corporal Woodrow Call (who received corporal punishment or who didn’t). We don’t even know if such a thing ever happened to any Texas ranger. It’s also painfully obvious that Miller is not really being whipped (if you look really carefully at the last lash delivered by the second flogger you’ll see that the whip actually hits the ground and not Call’s back). However, it is in exactly these types of situations where my brain says one thing but my heart says another and the two have trouble communicating. Remember, that because this is a work of fiction, I am posing the question that you will see below (and which I also asked before near the beginning of this message) as a hypothetical one. In other words, what would you do if, hypothetically speaking, you found such yourself in these circumstances. What would you do if this had been a true story and if you did find yourself in Gus’s shoes?

I know that by asking this question I am stomping where angels fear to tread but there are certain questions that need to be asked that no one dares to ask. This is a theme (asking questions that is - not whipping) which George Clooney touched upon in his opening speech at some recent movie awards ceremony (he was talking about the movie "Brokeback Mountain").

I could dissect this scene further but I think I’ve written enough for now and most people (including myself) can only digest so much information at one time. Besides, my typing is not that great - something which makes writing such long messages difficult.

I would just like to add one more thing. Possessing a fierce loyalty, devotion, and even love towards a friend who happens to be of the same sex does NOT necessarily make someone gay. This message is not about being straight or gay. It’s simply about brotherly love, devotion, and sacrifice. The author could have had Gus volunteer to take 50 lashes and then have the two buddies each take 50. However, he would have been risking having his audience perceive such a plot line as exploring realms that society still considers taboo (like S & M, homosexuality, etc...) even though, as I said, it does not necessarily have to be about any of that. However, that is how some people might interpret such a plot line.

Also, Call has only been to a prostitute once and on the beckoning of his friend Gus. He dresses rather mechanically afterwards. Thus, when he is whipped, he is practically pure and chaste - almost like a saint. After the whipping he practically IS regarded as a saint by his comrades.

Incidentally, McCurtry frequently uses the word "boy" (especially after the whipping) in describing Woodrow Call in his book (DMW). That adds another degree of sensitivity about the scene. I skimmed through the book but could not find out his age. Someone (in an amazon.com review of the book?) mentions that Call and Gus are both in their late teens (although Miller was 24 when this movie was filmed). The book also mentions (at the beginning) that his parents had died of smallpox and that he had gone to live with an uncle who "stropped" him so hard that he was forced to leave (so it seems that he had already had some previous experience with CP). ...just some details I forgot to mention.

I just wanted to add one thing about DMW. Gus is a drinker, a gambler, and a patron of prostitutes. While those may be behaviours that "macho" men engage in , I believe that taking 50 lashes for your close friend and comrade shows love, strength, courage, devotion, loyalty, compassion, sacrifice, and nobility of spirit (and maybe some other qualities I missed here). THAT is what REALLY makes a man. ...not just engaging in frivolous vices.

Incidentally, I DO agree with some previous postings where members say that a whipping should be a rite of passage and not extremely brutal and that that is ideally the kind of whipping they would like to take. I completely agree with them, except in this case, under such extenuating circumsatnces, and out of love, loyalty, respect, and devotion to a dear and close friend and comrade, I'd be willing to "go the extra mile".

I have raised some very serious questions, themes, and issues here. Please keep your replies serious.