Episodes where ray was right and Debra was wrong - Everybody Loves Raymond (1996) Discussion

[–] andrereichenbacher 8 years ago

He should have just sucked it up and dealt with it like a man and not like the spineless pussy he was and always had been. And I think Spencer was just the amalgamation of all the "annoying kids" that Ray and Phil Rosenthal had dealt with before at some point in their lives. And it's a possibility that Spencer was on the austism spectrum, but the writers of the ep chose not to go there. And I'm glad they didnt go there, because the end result would have probably REALLY pissed me off!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Wasn't Spencer "gifted"?

That was part of the joke on that episode.

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[–] jgrv-1 8 years ago

Off the top of my head...

The Annoying Kid
Lateness
The Power of No
She's The One
The Super Bowl

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[–] Wildstyle26 8 years ago

Well I can't blame Debra for not believing Ray when he complained about Spencer, because Ray is a bit of a child himself, and can barely tolerate his own kids.

Now, episodes where I did think Debra was out of line

Lateness
Superbowl both of them were equally silly
Net North - I don't even watc that one after the 1st viewing.
Young Girl - she was a bit too self-righteous there
Turkey or Fish She was out of line to wait until the last min. then try to take Marie's year for Thanksgiving -when Marie has probably already started getting everything together. Then she wants to pout that Marie has an attitude about that and brought a turkey.

Then there's the episode where she opens her mouth, says something stupid and ruins a good thing.

Marie making up with her sister, Alda. Then Debra comes out and stupidly says "I forgive you too, Aunt Alda" when Alda didn't apologize to her, then Debra goes into detail about the wedding and gets Marie and Alda fighting again. Though I loved Alda's last line to Marie,

Marie "You never even sent a gift!"
Alda "My gift was that I came at all."
Marie "What kind of a horse's ass gift is that?!"
Alda "You'd be lucky to have a horse's ass."

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

I think Ray was pitifully wrong in Lateness, but I know I am outshouted about that.

Debra was overwrought in Super Bowl. Actually, as the wife of a sportswriter, she should want nothing to interfere with her husband's profession. So giving Ray a hard time about what they do or don't do when they are in town for the Super Bowl, is worse than anything.

Just an aside, I actually knew a woman who brought a cooked turkey to a Christmas dinner for her son, when her daughter in law (other son's wife) was cooking lasagna for a bunch of guests at her home. I worked with the daughter in law.

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[–] Wildstyle26 8 years ago

I can understand Debra's disappointment there. She was fine with Ray taking Gianni. Robert and Frank made a stink about that. Debra just drank her coffee and wasn't concerned.

But when Ray called her, and asked her to come down, she was happy because she was thinking they were going to have a bit of vacation time together without the family. And she was ecstatic when she got there.

However, once she was down there, then Ray springs it to her that they weren't going to spend any time together except at night after they've done their own stuff separately all day. That's what he wants when they're home together. Had she known it was going to be like that, she'd have probably stayed home.

She wasn't trying to ruin his trip, or not want him to go to the SB. She was just hoping they would be spending some time together if he wanted her to come down there. Sadly, she didn't know he only invited her because his pals thought to bring their wives and he was ashamed.

BUt what I do fault Debra for is her initial reaction. Where she makes a scene in front of another couple, then storms into the bathroom like a bratty teenager. Then when Ray gets rid of the couple and opens the door, she's standing there with her arms folded, waiting for him to come to her.

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[–] jptf2 8 years ago

Most of them. He's just not allowed to "win" even though he's usually right.

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[–] alanjobe 8 years ago

Lateness and The Super Bowl are two episodes I cannot watch. I get so mad at Debra - and I like Debra.

But I really felt for Ray in both of those.

In Lateness, she made a deal to be on time. She should've been in the car by 6:15, not still primping in the mirror at 6:27.

In The Super Bowl, do you think she would've invited Ray to a free trip to the Mall of America?? No, she would've left the kids with him and took Amy or Linda or her Mom. She couldn't let Ray go and enjoy the weekend with Gianni even though she hates football.

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

I know everyone disagrees with me, but I think that in Lateness, Ray leaving Debra at home while he goes to the event, is a very hurtful thing to do to someone you are supposed to love.

Sure she shook hands on the deal, so what. That is not the spirit of a relationship.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

I know everyone disagrees with me, but I think that in Lateness, Ray leaving Debra at home while he goes to the event, is a very hurtful thing to do to someone you are supposed to love.

Sure she shook hands on the deal, so what. That is not the spirit of a relationship.

A relationship is 50/50. You criticize Ray. No criticism of Debra here?

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

Sure, I think she didn't need to give her hair that last little touchup. She should have quit while she was ahead.

But it isn't a nice way to treat your spouse. I don't care what anybody says. In my marriage, I am the one who is ready on time and sitting on the couch, while my husband is getting into the shower.

I don't just leave him behind, because why would I want to attend an event without him? Isn't that part of marriage, that you want to go to special events with your spouse, not make some cockamamie handshake deal and go without them?

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Yes, of course.

But you are missing the point.

Debra had an "obligation" and a "commitment", also.

It seems like you are easily dismissing/forgiving her, but buckling down on Ray.

She had an obligation to her husband. And she easily could have made sure to fulfill that. She chose not to.

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

Sure, that can be the rationale for the person who makes others wait. They don't have good time management skills.

But no one is addressing the idea that a loving spouse would rather go to the event with the person they love (this spouse) by their side, not leave them behind and go alone.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

But no one is addressing the idea that a loving spouse would rather go to the event with the person they love (this spouse) by their side, not leave them behind and go alone.

Exactly!

And it was Debra who created that predicament. She put Ray into that predicament.

So, why would a loving spouse place the other in such a predicament?

Plus, I think Ray was getting an award (or it was some important function).

Why would you want to make your husband look like a horse's ass and make him have to waltz in late to the function?

Because Debra thought that her concerns and her time are much more important and valuable than everyone else's. Including her husband. And including the crowd of 100 people at the ceremony.

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

So, bottom line is, everyone is free to behave just as they like.

I am alone in feeling, that I would wait for my spouse and not wish to attend without them. Everyone else feels differently from me, and would leave them behind.

In the end it just boils down to a personal choice.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Right.

There is no black and white. For the most part, things fall in the "gray area" in between.

Both Ray and Debra acted badly.

However: you are very quick to forgive and to dismiss (and to minimize) the bad conduct of Debra. (Which only enables such bad conduct.)

And not so with Ray.

In fact, you shift the blame for the bad conduct of Debra onto Ray.

In other words, you are victimizing the victim.

It's a standard ploy.

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

Ploy for what, I don't know. But here is a stupid story from when I was much younger, about 19. Ages ago, as I am 60 now.

I was dating this jerk, and we were going out, to attend a function. Nothing fancy, just a night out at a place.

We were talking, then he says I said something that offended him, and he got mad. He tells me I am not going to the place with him. He is leaving me behind. It was young and dumb, but I was naïve and I start apologizing and crying but he stands firm. "you're not going". I even followed him to the car and ran a little beside the car as he floored it and left without me.

A little later on, I learned there was this other girl who was going to be there, who he wanted to get to know better. We broke up pretty soon after this, and perhaps it colors my perception of the whole "leaving behind" thing.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Exactly! You are biased towards Debra and against Ray.

All of our biases are formed by our life's experiences.

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

But does it mean I am wrong? What I ultimately took from the experience, is that there are ways you treat someone you care about. This ex-dating guy obviously didn't care about me, so he treated me this way. I care for, for example, my husband, so I would never treat him shabbily, such as leaving without him to an event.

We differ, in that you would feel justified in treating someone crappy, if you felt they did it first, while I don't go by that.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Biases are exactly that -- biases.

So, you are biased in favor of Debra and against Ray.

You are very strong in your argument against Ray, but very quiet to criticize Debra.

Biases generally are "wrong", yes, in that they are not a good basis for a rational, objective, and impartial analysis.

In fact, "bias" and "impartial" are a contradiction.

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

I was really mad once, at my sister in law, the whole family was going to dinner at this restaurant, we had reservations and had agreed to meet at mother in law's house at 6.

Sis in law & her hub waltz in a half hour late, and she righteously states that she had to give the kids dinner. I felt like, she has been giving the kids dinner for years, she hasn't got it timed out yet? And, why not give the kids something super fast like McDonalds for one night?

So I do think it is inconsiderate. And you did not answer when I asked, if what Ray did to Debra, is an acceptable way to treat your spouse. And would you do it, and feel you were correct in doing it?

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

And you did not answer when I asked, if what Ray did to Debra, is an acceptable way to treat your spouse. And would you do it, and feel you were correct in doing it?

Is it acceptable? Yes. Not ideal, but definitely acceptable.

Would I do it? Yes. Would I feel "correct"? Yes.

This is the problem:

Ray and Debra entered into an agreement.

The agreement was basically this:

"We will both be ready at 6:00 PM and we will leave at 6:00 PM. Each of us agrees to this. And each of us agrees to let the other be free to leave at 6:00 PM if the other person is not in fact ready to leave at that agreed time." (or some such).

Ray made this promise and fulfilled his end and stuck to it.

Debra wanted the promise to be: "I will be ready if I am ready. I will be ready whenever I am ready. I will agree to be ready for 6:00 PM only if I am ready for 6:00 PM."

So, she wanted to eat her cake and have it, too.

She thinks the world revolves around her. And -- God forbid -- her one hair that was out of place on Ray's big night.

Take the entire scene and make one change.

Let's say that they had to be ready at precisely 6:00 PM to get on a plane. If they were not ready, the plane would leave without them at 6:01 PM. And they were heading to some extremely important event on this plane.

Should Ray have left at 6:00 PM or waited for Debra who was late?

It's the same idea.

It's important to Debra if and only if it's important to Debra.

If she were in my "plane" scenario -- and it were important to her -- she would: (A) make sure that she was ready on time; and (B) not worry about that last hair that was out of place.

She had no perspective. Or, rather, her perspective was self-involved, self-centered, and narcissistic.

In Debra's mind, the agreement was: "I am giving you permission to leave without me if I am late. But, if you leave without me because I am late, I will be angry."

In other words, totally self-serving, totally contradictory, totally irrational. And totally based on emotions, not rationality.

In other words, typical "woman" stuff.

She wanted to stack the deck so that she would win no matter what and Ray would lose no matter what.

In other words, Ray had to make promises and keep them, but she did not.

Cuz -- yeah -- that's fair and reasonable.

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[–] jgrv-1 8 years ago

Thank you, Joseph.

"Lateness" is the one episode where I am 100% on Ray's side. And it really pisses me off that the writers "let" Debra win in the end. Horrible, horrible, horrible.

If you love someone, you don't constantly keep him/her waiting and make him/her late, especially for his/her big night. How arrogant and self-centered can you get?

If I were Ray, not only would I have left without Debra, I would've made her sleep on the couch for a week.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Yes! You're welcome.

If I were Ray, not only would I have left without Debra, I would've made her sleep on the couch for a week.

... or, better yet, make her sleep across the street at Frank's and Marie's for the week ...

Ha! Ha!

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[–] finkemon 8 years ago

Very true, well thought out, and logical. You'd make a good Vulcan.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Very true, well thought out, and logical. You'd make a good Vulcan.

Thanks. I will work under the assumption that that is a, ummmm, compliment?

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[–] finkemon 8 years ago

A high compliment!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Great! I could use more compliments! Thanks!

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[–] finkemon 8 years ago

My "Vulcan" reply was for JosephASpadaro. I've had a boss like this; SHE WAS NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER WRONG.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

My "Vulcan" reply was for JosephASpadaro. I've had a boss like this; SHE WAS NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER WRONG.

Exactly! They are never, ever, ever wrong. Even when they are wrong ...

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[–] Wildstyle26 8 years ago

But you can argue if your spouse cares about the event you're going to, and being with you, shouldn't they make an effort to actually be ready on time, rather than having you sit around waiting on them when you'd like to be there early, or on time?

Something similar happened in Friends. Ross had a big night for his job. He wanted to leave in 30 min. But everyone was dragging around. Rachel, his girlfriend had her hair and make-up done, but then had to go through multiple outfits and decide what to wear.

Finally Ross snapped at her and told her he didn't care what she wore, or what she thought made her look fat, just get in her room, and put on something. Then she got an attitude, changed into sweats and decided to stay home.

People argued he shouldn't have snapped because she was trying to look good for his big night. But there's argument if she really cared about his night, she should have had clothes ready a day or so in advance, if it was gonna take her ages to decide on something.

So the one dragging around seems to be the more selfish, than the one who got fed up and left. The tardy one had the same amount of time as the other to be ready. Apparently they care little enough about things to start getting ready around the last min.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

As a general rule ...

Those who are late, and "make" others wait for them, are typically selfish people. They think that their time is more important than that of others.

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[–] Wildstyle26 8 years ago

Another one. It's a small one.

But the episode in Season 1. The Game.

It's storming out, Ray just put Michael to sleep and sits to watch tv. Debra says Ray could at least look at her before 3 hours of tv. The tv goes out, and Debra wants to sit and talk and gets offended when Ray doesn't want to. So he agrees, and she turns to him and says "So, go ahead."

And I agree with his response.

No, no. This is what you always do. You say "let's talk", and then you throw it to me. You say "let's talk", then you should have topics ready.

She's the one who wanted to sit and talk, but it's on Ray to start up the conversation.

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[–] Candyhearts27 8 years ago

As far as Lateness goes, I think that was both their faults. Yes, it was wrong of Ray to leave, but it was also wrong for Debra to take a long time. Ray even said the night before that he feels she doesn't care about him when she does this. Debra looked really nice, and I didn't see anything wrong with her hair. Had Ray waited and not left, then he would be in the right. Debra could say, "It's not my fault the curling iron got stuck," and Ray could say, "Actually, it is!" But, no, he did the wrong thing. They both did. I felt for Ray in this episode, but I don't agree with him leaving without her. I would say it's 70% her fault, and 30% his.

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[–] SkiesAreBlue 8 years ago

I agree with you. In another post I commented that rather than yell at her from the bottom of the stairs, he could have gone up and found what was wrong. He didn't hear an answer and that would have made me concerned. Debra could have unplugged the hair tongs and come down to ask for help. But neither would have been funny for the show. Poor Ray, crucified again 😒

SkiesAreBlue

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[–] finkemon 7 years ago

If I recall correctly, the AGREEMENT was that if Debra wasn't ready on time, Ray leaves. Without her if necessary. She AGREED to that.

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[–] jptf2 8 years ago

I'll just list a few people haven't mentioned:

The Gift: Ray knew his father better than Debra and was correct that the fish dying reminding him of death was not what he was upset about.

Recovering Pessimist: Forced optimism never got anyone anywhere.

The Children's Book: Debra tries to write it herself but gives up, Ray finishes it for her, she gets pissed off, re-writes what he wrote, and then when Ally liked Ray's better, he decided to lie to her because he didn't want to hurt her feelings. What's she so pissed off about?

Let's Fix Robert: Apparently Ray is the bad guy for wanting to tell Robert the truth about their manipulation.

Christmas Present: This backfired on Ray, but he cleverly unpacked Debra's ulterior motives and hypocrisy. She likes having things to complain about so she can make the marriage seem totally unbalanced.

Boob Job: How DARE he like his wife's boob job. </S>

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[–] EnnJaySee 8 years ago

Lol at some people here. Those who think he was right to leave her behind are wrong. You're wrong. That is not a healthy relationship, that's a cancerous one. That's a relationship doomed to failure the second you leave your other half behind. That is a major mistake, it's hurtful, it's wrong. Being late in getting ready is just annoying, it's an irritation, it's not terminal. Women are well known to hardly be on time, this is well known to all men. We put up with it. Men are forever waiting on their wives lol my dad knows all too well what that's like but he would never leave my mum behind. That's unhealthy and people who think it's alright to leave them behind are doomed to end up alone. Yes the woman should be ready, it's a pain in the ass when they aren't but it's nothing compared to your other half ditching you.

Goodbye.

 #VivaLaBull - "Go away. You aren't even American"

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

It's a passive/aggressive "power trip" on the part of the woman. It's all about power and control.

How is that healthy for the relationship?

So, if one person (the woman) is on a power trip and needs to gain control through passive/aggressive behavior, the relationship already has problems.

Let's not pretend that the problems arise or are caused by the husband not waiting.

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[–] Wildstyle26 8 years ago

And I am a woman. I start getting ready early, so I can be out of the house by a certain time. If the guy is dragging around, chances are I am gonna leave. Ultimately, he could have left with me had he cared, and gotten ready on time.

If anyone is tardy, sounds like a personal problem they need to work out, rather than intentionally being careless, waiting until the last min. and excepting people to just go on pause for them.

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[–] andrereichenbacher 8 years ago

I completely agree with you. A while back there was a thread on here discussing whether or not Ray was right to leave Debra behind in "Lateness". And as I recall, it was split right down the middle. Some, like me, felt that Ray was in the wrong to do what he did and that one does not "A.I.S." one's wife, because "it just ISN'T done", and the rest of the contributors were on Ray's side, saying that Debra had more than enough time to get ready and should not have put the straightener in her hair with only three minutes to spare. It became quite a heated argument, and I was chastised by some posters for saying what I said. Well, I dont care. I still believe that what Ray did was wrong and that Debra had every right to be furious at him when he returned. And it was pretty funny at the very end when he was sitting on the bed with the cheap flowers waiting for her, and then he groans in defeat. That was funny!

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[–] everydayimbrusseling 8 years ago

Definitely Let's Fix Robert & The Annoying Kid.
I'm surprised no one said Bully on the Bus, Favors, The Sigh, The Ingrate, Meeting The Parents or Blabbermouths. Ray was 100% right in those. & that's just off the top of my head.
He was right most of the time.

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