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This Friday on 'Dark Skies' ep 17: 'Both Sides Now'


AIRED: 3/8/97

"Steele works on Sayers to willingly accept returning to the Hive. Loengard seeks anyone he believes can lead him to his wife" (Correction: GIRLFRIEND!). "Meanwhile, Juliet and John look into the growing antiwar movement at Berkeley, and Bach finds a new creative" (and most certainly totally harmless) "way to increase funding to Majestic."

Eric Close ... John Loengard
Megan Ward ... Kimberly Sayers
J.T. Walsh ... Capt. Frank Bach
Jeri Ryan ... Juliet Stewart
Tim Kelleher ... Jim Steele
Jeff Juday ... Ben Kendall
Charley Lang ... Dr. Halligan
Conor O'Farrell ... Lt. Commander Phil Albano
Timothy Omundson ... Jerry Rubin
Don Stark ... Gallagher
Bradford English ... General Brown
Brett Wagner ... Huge Inductee

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So I'm watching this episode this evening and wondering whatever happened to the whole conspiracy theory "history as we know it is a lie" angle? That was really the fun part of the show, what set it apart from the ordinary alien invasion stories. The best we get is that the war was a funding mechanism for Majestic and the anti-war movement was really the Hive's way of starving Majestic. But Majestic had been doing quite nicely for 18 years with no war. What suddenly changed?

And we start the episode with that stupid light globe, which will never be explained, doesn't make sense, and I'm sick of it.

About halfway through I kept pausing the episode to see how much longer it was going to run.

And now not only can we not kill off Steele when we have multiple chances, we can't harm Kim either. Imagine this is a World War II story. Kim has just defected to the Nazis, has infiltrated an American organization with the goal of inciting riots in America, and has just tried to kill John. But the other American agents just let her go, because they don't want to harm her. Preposterous.

And most of the story was about John and Kim and Steele and the baby and I don't really care and whatever happened to the threat to humanity? Oh, John doesn't even care any more.

Neither do I.

This is where I realized that, despite the previous couple of episodes being pretty good, the show is no longer what it was and what it promised to be. And it's not going to get back to where it was. And you know what that means, folks.

Up, up, up, over in a (dare I say) Majestic arc! Down, down, down like a flying saucer hit by small arms fire! Ladies and gentlemen, Dark Skies has JUMPED THE SHARK.

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by - dtmuller on Fri Jun 21 2013 19:57:48
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So I'm watching this episode this evening and wondering whatever happened to the whole conspiracy theory "history as we know it is a lie" angle? That was really the fun part of the show, what set it apart from the ordinary alien invasion stories.

As usual you raise interesting points. But who says that part won't come back? Oh, well, there are just three more episodes to go, so you're probably right, but I think in the long run the writers would have kept playing with that concept.

The best we get is that the war was a funding mechanism for Majestic and the anti-war movement was really the Hive's way of starving Majestic. But Majestic had been doing quite nicely for 18 years with no war. What suddenly changed?

I wondered where Majestic got its money from before the war too. But you're being a bit naive. If there is one golden rule about public service is that funding is never enough, and there's no such thing as "doing fine" so administrators will always do whatever they can to increase their budgets.

And now not only can we not kill off Steele when we have multiple chances, we can't harm Kim either. Imagine this is a World War II story. Kim has just defected to the Nazis, has infiltrated an American organization with the goal of inciting riots in America, and has just tried to kill John. But the other American agents just let her go, because they don't want to harm her. Preposterous.

Well, Steele is a Dark Skies classic, a Timex, and you know what they used to say about Timex. The way I see things, John didn't kill Kim because he loves her and his priorities are basically screwed. And Juliet didn't let the other guy shoot because she somehow identifies with John's situation because she just lost her beloved Lev. It's the same reason a character doesn't kill his zombie/undead/vampire wife the first chance he has. We all know he should and how that will turn out, but he won't do it.

And most of the story was about John and Kim and Steele and the baby and I don't really care and whatever happened to the threat to humanity? Oh, John doesn't even care any more. Neither do I.

I sort of have to disagree again. Their early reasons to act failed. Exposing Majestic has proven to be impossible and let's face it, majestic is corrupt but they are not the real enemy here. And saving mankind one yahoo at a time was too diffuse and pointless. So, now either they could give Frank, Juliet and John a real way to finish the Hive with some effective Hive Kryptonite they could use, or let John pursue a personal vendetta. Or maybe both would work, with Frank trying to save the world not caring about collateral damage, John going on a rampage of personal vendetta and Juliet in the middle trying to make sense of it all!

Up, up, up, over in a (dare I say) Majestic arc! Down, down, down like a flying saucer hit by small arms fire! Ladies and gentlemen, Dark Skies has JUMPED THE SHARK.

Oh, I definitely wouldn't go that far. I don't shark-jumping has many different definitions, but to me it's more like when the show does one single silly thing to attract attention and increase ratings, but it's so absurd and desperate that it looks totally ridiculous. The problem with Dark Skies is that, late in the season, it's still struggling to find an identity, but I can't spot a single shark-jumping moment.

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Shark jumping does have different definitions, but I try to stay with the one used on the original "Jump The Shark" website, which defines it as the moment when you realize that the show you've enjoyed is no longer what it used to be and just isn't the same series that interested you in the first place. That, of course, makes shark jumping very much a personal opinion. The original shark jump was Happy Days, and I think the guy who coined the expression was wrong--the show jumped several years earlier. But his choice resulted in a far better expression. If we took my opinion on that one, my earlier post in this thread would have read: "Ladies and gentlemen, FONZIE HAS MOVED INTO THE GARAGE APARTMENT" Not quite the same ring.

I think in the long run the writers would have kept playing with [the conspiracy] concept.

They likely would have kept playing with it, but it was largely abandoned as the major theme of the series several weeks ago. Whether they would have gone back to that eventually, no one can say. But the show clearly has undergone a fundamental change.

But you're being a bit naive. If there is one golden rule about public service is that funding is never enough, and there's no such thing as "doing fine" so administrators will always do whatever they can to increase their budgets.
Not being naive at all. My point is that the Hive is being naive. If President Johnson had decided to pull out of Vietnam the next day, would Bach have thrown up his hands and said, "OK, I guess we have no funding so we're out of business"? Of course not! Like any good bureaucrat, he always found ways to get what he needed, and would just have continued to do so in a different way. He would have siphoned funds from the space program that Johnson strongly backed, the various "Great Society" programs, etc. If the Hive thinks that cutting off a single source of funds will kill Majestic, then they are being naive.

Exposing Majestic has proven to be impossible and let's face it, majestic is corrupt but they are not the real enemy here. And saving mankind one yahoo at a time was too diffuse and pointless. So, now either they could give Frank, Juliet and John a real way to finish the Hive with some effective Hive Kryptonite they could use, or let John pursue a personal vendetta.
That's right, Majestic is not the real enemy here, the invading aliens are. And saving mankind one yahoo at a time is pointless. But that's just what the series has turned into!

The show has gone through three phases: Phase 1, John works within Majestic (while questioning its methods) to save humanity; Phase 2, John works against Majestic from the outside to save humanity by making make the threat public knowledge; Phase 3, John fights Majestic from the inside, not to save humanity, but rather to save Kim, even if it makes it easier for the Hive to win the war. In effect, he's treating Majestic as the enemy while saving one person. Again, I'll use my WW2 analogy: there was corruption in the US army during the war, so let's fight the army and help the Nazis in order to save one person while losing the war. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

So the Hive is invading, Kim has defected, John is aiding the enemy and Majestic is corrupt. There are no good guys in this show anymore! As Mark Twain put it (I'm told), the mark of good fiction is that we care about the characters, the good to succeed and the bad to be defeated. The problem with most fiction is that we want all of them to end up in Hell together, as quickly as possible.

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by - dtmuller on Sun Jun 23 2013 06:42:56
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Shark jumping does have different definitions, but I try to stay with the one used on the original "Jump The Shark" website, which defines it as the moment when you realize that the show you've enjoyed is no longer what it used to be and just isn't the same series that interested you in the first place. (...) If we took my opinion on that one, my earlier post in this thread would have read: "Ladies and gentlemen, FONZIE HAS MOVED INTO THE GARAGE APARTMENT" Not quite the same ring.

Yes, I get that, though to me jumping the shark is still that moment of ridiculousness singled out, like Fonzie literally jumping over a shark because the writers must've thought Fonzie was so cool and such that even a shark was no match for his cunning, or whatever. Speaking of Sharks, I keep thinking when I completely lost respect for Batman in the 1966 series. OK, the show itself was ridiculous, but I was a kid and didn't now any other Batman version. The thing I'm trying to say what we really remember in the end is the ridiculous moments. Was it when Batman danced? Or his cowl turned pink? No, I might still go with the moment he had shark-repellent spray in his utility belt. You still can't beat a shark when it comes to shark-jumping. Or am I being too literal?

Anyway, I completely get what you're saying. But considering that, perhaps the show jumped the shark the moment Juliet became part of the cast. All things considered, at that moment the show took a new direction, but that was good and despite all the problems it still has, we all agree things improved, even if slightly. So, considering the definition of shark-jumping you prefer, maybe jumping the shark is not necessarily a bad thing? After all, many shows fundamentally change their premise at some point, but that often works for the better.

Not being naive at all. My point is that the Hive is being naive. If President Johnson had decided to pull out of Vietnam the next day, would Bach have thrown up his hands and said, "OK, I guess we have no funding so we're out of business"? Of course not! Like any good bureaucrat, he always found ways to get what he needed, and would just have continued to do so in a different way. He would have siphoned funds from the space program that Johnson strongly backed, the various "Great Society" programs, etc.

You're totally right there. Frank would've thought of different ways to get funding for sure. But the point I was trying to make is that the Vietnam War was too sweet a deal to let it pass. The War was basically a blank check given to Frank. It's something the story has been developing and, in my opinion, something they've done well. So, Frank convinced the Warren Commission that Roswell was all about a Communist threat averted by Truman and the birth of Majestic. Now (1966) the War against Communism has reached much greater proportions and the Vietnam War is basically the most concerning manifestation of this greater conflict. So, basically majestic is being paid to fight Communism. Yes, if the War ended and even the cold war ended, Frank could still divert funding from primary school education, social security, or the space program, but it would never work so beautifully as the Big Red Communist threat. Well, at least until they picked another enemy, which makes me think Majestic is behind 9/11.

If the Hive thinks that cutting off a single source of funds will kill Majestic, then they are being naive.

I'm in total agreement there and I said something like that in my comment, just not with so many words.

Again, I'll use my WW2 analogy: there was corruption in the US army during the war, so let's fight the army and help the Nazis in order to save one person while losing the war. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I'm not saying I like what John is doing or agree with him, but I understand why he's reacting that way. You use the WWII analogy, while I still prefer the zombie/vampire analogy. The good guy always often refuses to see the situation as it is and has to come to terms with he fact he has to kill his beloved, which happens eventually. John's loss is still fresh, so he might come to his senses eventually and still do the right thing. Of course we'll never see that with just three more episodes to go.

So the Hive is invading, Kim has defected, John is aiding the enemy and Majestic is corrupt. There are no good guys in this show anymore! As Mark Twain put it (I'm told), the mark of good fiction is that we care about the characters, the good to succeed and the bad to be defeated. The problem with most fiction is that we want all of them to end up in Hell together, as quickly as possible.

I don't think you're wrong at all. But perhaps you should consider this from a television historical perspective. This is precisely one of the things that impressed me about the show back in 1997. At that time the anti-hero was not such a hallmark of television drama. Until then, good guys were always consistently good, and the bad were bad. Dark Skies was one of the first shows I remember to play with that notion, and challenge our perception of good and bad. I'm not saying they did it very well, but they got points for trying. Now this is quite common. How many times did jack Bauer do something that made us hate him? Though he was practically always effective, and in the end always saved many lives no matter the cost, I completely lost touch with the character the moment he murdered Chapelle.

So, back in 1997, Dark Skies was refreshing. Then, in 1999, we had The Sopranos, and my mind was blown by the fact they were basically all bad, and there was no remarkable antagonist fighting for "good" against the Mob. And eventually I also got tired of that show because of that. And later there was The Wire, which made me eternally depressed. Oh, yes, and in the early 2000s I found out about Oz, which now I know started also in 1997, but I only got to watch it later. And that also made me very depressed, because I learned there was no good in this world!

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Man I wish I had an opinion on all this stuff you and DT are writing, I just can't seem to form one. The show did get better so did the shark jump in reverse? but it seems to have turned into vengeance is mine say eth John and I don't like that either so did the shark re jump? Just the whole fact that out of the blue they seem to be pinning their whole story to Kim's baby now was just a bad move.....the baby is the key...yuk. At least someone finally touched that God Dam ball of light. though I'm sure what happened.

http://codenamestone.blogspot.com/

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OK, so last episode Kim had been coopted by the Hive and I was fine with that. But somehow the writers felt they needed an extra episode to really explain that. Funny, but just the fact that a ganglion had grown in her seemed to have been enough, so I really didn't see much need for this one. But of course it gave us more details.

The thing that has always bothered with how the Hive recruits new members is that it's not clear how much they force people, or whether their choice is of much importance. First they forcefully abduct and implant innocent people. Sometimes they re-implant them, as they need to be "reinforced." But then you have the whole ball of light ritual and there's a lot of talking and convincing and the need to use half truths to do so. I'm confused now.

The episode was named "Both Sides Now" as if now we could have a better understanding of the Hive's supposed higher motives. But Steele's lies were so transparent that I think Kim only bought them because she was implanted and was not thinking straight, hence why the need to convince her if they were mentally (even if partially?) controlling her will?

Steele's clumsy attempts to show mankind is violent and the Hive is peaceful were risible. Steele is a bully (of, well, he has always been a bully, even as human) and that showed in everything he did. So humans kill one another in useless war, but the Hive isn't any better, and was even planning to use a poisonous gas against innocent manifestants, which we know thanks to the typical carelessness of an available Majestic Red Shirt.

So, now expect an army of Hive accountants to come and unmask all our dirty bookkeeping secrets. Those Hive being really disappoint me as they fight like silly Ferengi. Really? Exposing Majestic's dirty accounting sins so explicitly illustrated by blood dripping from the ledger was real silly, and Kim in her normal frame of mind wouldn't have fallen for it because she knows the Majestic are no saints.

OK, I get the baby angle and I understand why a mother would go to the extreme point of sacrificing herself to make sure she would be there with her child all the way. But she would have to do it knowing she was signing a deal with the Devil. And what leverage would the Hive have to convince other humans to join it? How did they convince Steele? They promised him unlimited bullying? How did they get the other people to touch the goddamned ball of light, people who didn't have as important stakes as a baby involved?

Also, the Vietnam War was way more important than just as a mere means to providing funding to majestic. It had much deeper ramifications. It seems the Hive was doing too much micromanaging trying to stop a war for budgetary reasons.

I think the show has wasted a good opportunity to make a deeper move, show us that their idea of uniformity and singleness would work better than our fragmented, conflicted society, that under the Hive's wise administration all wars would end and there would be no racial conflicts. But Steele was the last person they could choose to convey this message because, as I said, he's a bully, a grunt worker, a mindless soldier, as he's always been. I think they'd need a charismatic actor in a special participation so we'd really get a perspective that there were two possible sides for this conflict.

OK, because Kim is an important character, this episode deserves some respect and some credit. This one gets 6 "Steele" rods used for spanking.

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Ok, here we go, The return of the infamous blue lite. At least we get to see someone (I think) touch it, though I never did see the black fingers and on that note, how come there is not an epidemic of black fingered people running around the world and on that note is this happening around the world? yikes, confusing myself...........

What is the deal with Steele, he can fix bullet wounds, crushed bones, clubs to the head but cant fix his eye?

Hey the hive speaks Klingon...awesome.

Ok here is the deal, the show is getting better but during it's retooling it has lost it's way. We have now disintegrated into a one dimensional theme, get Kim and her baby....the baby is some sort of key....ugh can't take it. Where did this come from? Was the whole premise to get to Kim? why not just snatch her from the beginning and how is the baby the key? Blah.

I give the people at Dark skies props they believed in their product and they look like they worked hard and have done what they could to try and save their baby but it's not working for me. I had a good time the last 3 or four weeks but didn't like this one and when Steele was showing Kim the future, he showed it to me as well, All I saw was a black hole sucking in all my time without any return.

All in all watchable episode but no future, I give this one 5 cans of death gas on the DS scale.

http://codenamestone.blogspot.com/

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At least we get to see someone (I think) touch it, though I never did see the black fingers


They showed Kim's black fingertips when she was clutching that club or whatever it was behind her back as she was walking up to John.

how come there is not an epidemic of black fingered people running around the world and on that note is this happening around the world?


Majestic's intelligence did say it seemed to be a temporary condition with recent inductees. Not sure how long it lasts, maybe a few days?

As for the baby, yeah the "child is the key" trope is pretty old and worn. I suppose the reason for the Hive's interest in this case, is the chance to raise a child fully infected/indoctrinated from the moments it gained consciousness. Not sure if the baby "touched the light"--a baby would probably naturally do it out of that innocent curiosity babies have, where they touch anything, put all sorts of things in their mouth, etc. Part of their plan was to make a large part of a new generation that would fully and innocently embrace their alien overlords. Perhaps this baby was the first one to do so from near birth, a sort of new test case of theirs.

I've just watched the series to this point, and although there's some cheesiness in it, the premise with its alternate history sure had potential. I can imagine all sorts of events up to the present that could be given that treatment in interesting ways.


Understanding is a three-edged sword.

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This Friday on “Dark Skies” ep 17: “Both Sides Now”

Another good episode this week thought for sure we were done with Kim but no she returns. All I know is white is her color wow did she look good in that white sweater. So now I’m beginning to believe that the Aliens are afraid of us. They want to stop a war to cut off funding to M12 how could this be they have a moon base, space ships, base underwater how can they be stopped. Is John relationship now over since Kim gave him a butt whipping. He indicated at the end his only concern is his Alien baby or I think it might be Steele child. It took a while for me to get into this show and now that it’s about over they seem to be getting better each week… Long live Dark Skies….

Sorry for being so late sometimes I get lazy doing my homework.

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by - wlcebtg on Mon Jun 24 2013 19:25:14
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Another good episode this week thought for sure we were done with Kim but no she returns. All I know is white is her color wow did she look good in that white sweater.

I sure have to agree she did look great in this episode indeed. Hive life is doing her wonders. And while we're at it, Juliet was particularly ravishing too. I wonder if as a field agent her goal is to call the most attention. Because a blonde like that with all that makeup work would certainly be remembered later.

OH, and that's nothing beauty-related at all, but whatever happened to our grey friend? Did he die of strawberry ice cream indigestion?

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He may be in Detroit waiting in line for more icecream.

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He may be in Detroit waiting in line for more ice cream.
Come to think of it, the local ice cream place is Ray's.

Ray's Ice Cream.

Gray's Ice Cream.

Hmmm....

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whatever happened to our grey friend?

He changed his name to Roger and is living upstairs in Stan and Francine Smith's attic.

http://codenamestone.blogspot.com/

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They want to stop a war to cut off funding to M12 how could this be they have a moon base, space ships, base underwater how can they be stopped.


The whole key to their plan seems to involve consent though--you must consent to touch that orb or it doesn't work. They take over by slowly getting the species to embrace them. To that end, using brute force on the human race wouldn't work. They wanted us intact, alive, and willing vessels.


Understanding is a three-edged sword.

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Whoever he is, he's not in the credits (at least from what I can tell--don't remember his name). But he looked a lot like Nathan Fillion, though a bit younger than he was in Firefly about six years later. Born in 1971, he'd be 25 when Dark Skies aired. Could be him.

I looked for acting credits under his name also, but if that role itself isn't credited in the work, it wouldn't show in his acting history either.

Anyone happen to know if that's him, in what would be one of his first acting roles?

Surprised the character wasn't credited, since that was more of a part in this episode than "Huge Inductee" was.


Understanding is a three-edged sword.

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