MovieChat Forums > Twelve Monkeys (1996) Discussion > Virus premise doesn't gel

Virus premise doesn't gel


So they live underground because outside, all over the world, there's this virus. Who kills people (but nothing else).
So, wouldn't it need people to propagate otherwise disappear itself?
Like ebola, very deadly viruses have trouble propagating because they kill all their hosts quickly, not giving them time to spread it.
This shit that's around now is a pain in the ass because it's not super deadly, so it spreads.
In this movie it's clear they have something that kills a lot and quite quickly.
But even if it didn't, after I don't know how many years of quarantine, it surely would be gone in the outside world, because it wouldn't have any host to live in.
Am I missing something or this virus premise doesn't gel?

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I mean you have to suspend disbelief with the premise of it not effecting anything but humans. But you're right it probably would eventually dissolve I guess.

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I can imagine a virus that existed without causing significant illness in many mammals, but which could easily transmit to humans - which would be lethally effected. Such a virus could remain in the animals, more or less unchanged for a very long time. This premise, supported by sufficiently believable technobabble, is all that is required to make the premise work.

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Animals are non symptomatic carriers in the 12 Monkeys Universe the premise is brilliant and quite allegoric ...and the Virus is a genetically engineered airborne bio weapon designed to kill as many as possible(99% of human kind), also it mutated who knows how many times thus they needed the primal form of the virus for a vaccine which is the plot hole IMO ..I mean the virus mutates constantly what's the point of requiring the primal form ...I don't know I'm not a virologist ...Anyway 12 Monkeys is a cinematic masterpiece

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Ok, animals are non symptomatic CARRIERS. For what I understand, a carrier doesn't allow much reproduction to the virus, till it's carried in a victim. I mean, the virus needs the HOST, not a carrier, to replicate.
Like, it needs to affect the host to make it infectious and replicate.
If it's in a carrier, it just travel around without doing much, waiting to get into somebody to infect. If it goes from a carrier to a carrier to a carrier, it will stop being a virus at all.
So for this logic, if it's just being carried around by animals, it will stop to be infectious after people disappear for some years, because it doesn't have the breeding ground to infect and replicate.
That's what I understand.
I'm not debating that the movie has lots of merits, I like it quite a bit, but this premise seems a bit cartoonish that's all I'm debating.

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I meant non symptomatic hosts...it replicates just fine inside animals but it's not as lethal as in humans

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Is that what's happening in the movie? That's also unscientific: there are no omnicomprehensive viruses, they attack specific lifeforms, with some interspecial contagion, so SOME animal could be carriers/hosts, not all.
Humans would just dispose of such species, problem solved...again, this virus would never make sense in the real world.

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This one was designed to do just that. FTFY

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Well, than it could also be designed to be invincible and shoot missiles out of its ass.
Whatever you want to believe.
There's a limit to sci fi and suspension of disbelief, but if you are fine with the crappy scientific premise you "fixed", than more power to you.

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Time travel is impossible so you must be fun at parties.

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Nope, you are fun. The idiot that thinks he can end any film discussion with the argument "But it's just a MOVIE!!!"
Because, you know, nobody else noticed that.

Thanks for your input, it was as useful as an asshole on my elbow.

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Is the asshole functional on your elbow or is it just the asshole without any of the plumbing?

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Either way, it is useless.

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"Omnicomprehensive", 'unscientific'.. you are grasping at straws here, when you have to resort to that sort of stuff.

Look, it's very simple;

1) The virus works just fine with animals, it JUST doesn't _KILL_ them. It works otherwise exactly as with humans.

2) Humans are just very VULNERABLE to that virus, so it kills humans very efficiently, animals have more resistance to its lethality, but they do become hosts and victims of the virus. It does probably kill the animals, too, but just much slower.

3) You should simplify your thinking from all that 'I have read 100 virus articles so I know how to use words like 'omnicomprehensive' to prove I am above you rookies'-nonsense; the virus works perfectly with every living creature, it's just that some living creatures have weaker resistance to it, so it's more lethal in some entities than others.

It's very simple and very realistic, you don't have to bring 'science' into it, viruses are not scientists, so they CAN'T, by definition, be 'scientific'. They're just something that happen to living creatures, that's all. No need to bring your white coats and laboratories into it.

People have already explained this, and you're still grasping at straws and making strawmen to attack, so I guess you might be resistant to the virus called 'logic and truth', but that just proves my point - some entities are more resistant than others, and THAT IS ALL you have to know.

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My. Here we are with a virus that can live for long periods of time on surfaces. There are "carriers" who are asymptomatic who can spread the disease without knowing it. Everybody on social media was cool with it killing all the "right" people -- hence, "Boomer Doomer" -- until young people started getting it. They're still not really sure about how it spreads. And if we've learned nothing else, we should have learned that the so-called experts don't know squat. It took them forever to admit it probably came from the Wuhan "Virology" Lab, but only a few of us are saying it looks like they were working on a weaponized virus.

And you don't think they could tweak it so that it could live in house pets and transfer to humans -- something the experts are telling us isn't possible now? I wouldn't bet against it. Could they come up with something that absolutely stymied all the "experts"? The more I learn about this virus, the more I think they definitely could.

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Hey anything is possible, especially if you believe fake news.
Meanwhile, in the real world, viruses work in a way that makes sense, and the deadlier they are the more difficultly they spread, since the host dies.
Also,like you mentioned, if it propagates with asimptomatic hosts, that means that a large part of the population has no problems with it. You wanna tell me that surface civilization would stop in such a case?
So, again, the premise does not gel.

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The one we've currently got makes sense?

Remember those videos of young people just dropping in the streets of China and Iran? They now think -- as was rumored at the time -- that they were dying of sudden heart attacks. Those were folks who thought they were well enough to be out and about, not symptomatic people who'd been welded into their apartments by that playful Chinese regime.

They're learning more about this crazy virus all the time, but there's still more they don't know than they do know.

And, what if it has a mutate capacity that outstrips our attempts at creating a vaccine? I certainly hope not. But if the weaponized virus in the movie mutated enough that they couldn't create vaccines for it, every flu season those people would be hit by wave after wave of sickness and death.

The virus premise is certainly more believable than anything in a Superhero movie. This is just a "Dystopian Earth" movie. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Go ahead and believe it the virus premise of the movie is faulty. Suits me.

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You are not talking scientifically.
The premise is: people cannot go outside without hazmat suit or die quickly from a virus.
This virus only kills and affects humans.
That does not make sense. Nor is remotely similar to covid19, which shows exactly how a virus cannot be that deadly to be a pandemic threat, AND how it goes away with mere isolation in a matter of weeks.

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Where did it say in the movie that it only affected humans?

"Nor is remotely similar to covid19, which shows exactly how a virus cannot be that deadly to be a pandemic threat, AND how it goes away with mere isolation in a matter of weeks." You need to volunteer your expertise to the COVID-19 task force. Dr. Fauci said we'd be likely to have a resurgence in the fall. And the Spanish flu was a virus that was deadly enough to be a pandemic threat. THIS is a pandemic. And I don't know of anywhere that it has gone away, even with the best isolation that COVIDIOTS can give it -- which is never complete, because there are too many people who think social distancing shouldn't apply to them.

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You keep comparing covid19, which has affected a few millions of people, to this virus, which has killed most humans. Wanna compare a tricyle and a Lamborghini too? They both have wheels, give it a shot!

The movie repeatedly shows animals roaming all over unaffected.
It also NEVER mentions it affects other species.
Why should we think it kills anything other than humans?

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Maybe he died of COVID-19?

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There is a serious possibility.

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Some viruses have a natural reservoir where they can reproduce without causing illness in their hosts. If this one was genetically engineered, it may have been done to be lethal to humans but allow it to persist in some other carrier without illness, allowing it to exist in perpetuity (provided it doesn't mutate to non-lethal status).

The larger issue is how they can invent time travel but not a vaccine.

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Yup, even when the whole world is pretty much wiped out...they put all their effort into sending crazy dudes back in time.

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Ok, your genetic engineering concept makes more sense than a regular natural virus.
So, it's meant to be super deadly for humans but not to other carriers.

In that case, it's ludicrous that they wouldn't identify the carrier pretty quickly, and get rid of it/neutralize it/isolate it. Or is it a magical virus that infects EVERYTHING but only kills humans? Come on, let's be scientifically accurate.
Not only that, but even if it infected lions and bears, those are sparse and not in contact with humans.
Any possible host that will give problems to humans is another animal that lives in close quarters with humans, like rats, pidgeons, pets, fleas, mosquitoes, flies and that's about it.
Any of these animals are easy to deal with and isolate, they could just start some hot spots here and there, but like already mentioned, it's a super deadly virus so any hot spot is self cointained.

So we're back to square 1, even with a genetically engineered virus the doomsday premise doesn't gel.

And yeah, time machine but no vaccine, way to go geniuses!

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I mean if we could isolate all the rats or pigeons, I think we would have done so years ago just to make cities cleaner and more sanitary. That's a more difficult job than you maybe assume.

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Of course it's a big job.
But we are not in the middle ages: the billions of rats that surround us are quite far from us, not nearly close enough to be contagious of anything.
Same for pidgeons.
So it's not that difficult a task afterall, to remove them if "dangerous".

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I agree. I also think there are species-specific viruses. I recall an outbreak of canine parvovirus that is highly contagious among dogs and was causing a lot of canine deaths but not killing cats or humans for example. I don’t have a problem with the virus premise in this movie in which it only kills humans but not animals. The terrorists who created the virus were partially motivated by anger at scientific animal abuse; a subplot that ran throughout the movie. It would make no sense for them to develop a contagion in a laboratory to punish humans for such abuse and then unleash it only to kill all the animals along with the human targets. You are a voice of reason here

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Exactly. Many things don't make sense in movies, but the virus-thing in this movie does.

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Dude, you're in for an interesting 5 months! Anyway good point. If Covid 19 killed people like Ebola did the hosts would die and it would stop the spread. However in the case of 12 Monkeys you know how that crazy guy had the virus in test tubes? Well that shows it doesn't have to go host to host to survive. Obviously if he can store it in test tubes indefinitely it can probably survive in the air indefinitely.
As for Covid, come back here in 5 more months. President Biden will have it under control!

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That's not the way it works, not even in this movie.
The crazy guy had it contained in what looked like a frozen cylinder. It was meant to look like a microbe stable in those specific conditions, that once opened had a few minutes to get places, infect somebody, or die.
Air is a totally different environment than that cylinder.
Covid is quite easy to control, we don't even need Bruce Willis nor Biden, just social distancing. Of course if you have an idiot in charge that doesn't want to wear a mask because of his 2 cm penis complex, than that's a problem.

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You aren't a virologist dude.

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How do you know that, dude?

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Because you're talking total bs.

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Good Call Einstein! More people died of Covid under Biden than Trump. What a great job! About as good as those mayors in NYC and California that persuaded people to defy Trump and go to the movies and Chinatown, only to clog their hospitals with more people than beds just to scare people into pointless lockdowns (oh wait, there was a point, remember mail in ballots?).

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First realize that this isn't a documentary about virology.

You are accurate in saying that a virus that was highly contagious and 100% lethal would run itself into extinction.

If you wanted to make up some plausibly, it could be a virus that is extremity stable on surfaces. Maybe it could enter the body through skin contact (highly unlikely).

Our, as others suggest, it is carried and trasmitted by other animals (birds, would be very good at spreading it) without making them ill.

Anyway, it's not about virology. If such a virus were possible, we'd probably all have died long ago.

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I kinda got the feeling this is not a documentary too, thanks for pointing that out....
Ok so it's stable on surfaces and enters the skin: that's a bitch!
But wouldn't rain wash it off? Or at least some tonnage of cleaning products? Or worse case, hazmat suits and gloves. Doesn't sound that difficult to fight afterall.

I like this movie, I'm just pointing out that these scientists, who have the capabilities of constructing a time machine, don't know how to fight this virus, probably because it doesn't even make sense.

Maybe it goes along with the crazy subplot: the virus itself is crazy and the way it works is crazy too!

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"I'm just pointing out that these scientists, who have the capabilities of constructing a time machine, don't know how to fight this virus,"

Game, set, and match to you!

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Is it possible that the scientists have special hazmat suits to prevent the virus getting to people, but about half of the people don't believe the virus is "all that dangerous" and walk around without them? Meanwhile, another 1/4 or so of the populace is 100% on-board with hazmat suits, but leave their ****ing noses hanging out?

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Yes, that is a probable scenario, but any writer in 1995 would have told you that's so stupid and incredible it's difficult to have viewers buy into it. Anybody watching would say "can't they wear their fucking suit properly and stfu?"
These fools would probably wear the hazmat suit half open, hanging from their waist, with the mask pulled up on their head.
That's as useful as a condom tied up around the base of your dick, but guess what: that's exactly how they use their condoms! Which explains the overabundance of morons on the planet.
And then gather in big crowds to party up, because you know it: civilization cannot go on without partying at all times, during wars, revolutions, holocausts, pandemics.....

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