Trinity and Beyond - Trinity and Beyond: The Atomic Bomb Movie (1995) Discussion

[–] bawko 21 years ago

Pete,
Great job, producing "Trinity and Beyond". I certainly hope you have made a profit off your investment, this is by far the most FASCINATING documenary I think I have ever seen.
Other than the unabashed praise of your involvement in this film, what future projects are you considering pursuing in this film genre?
Best wishes,
Bawko

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[–] red95king 21 years ago

Mr Kuran,

Trinity and Beyond is a facinating documentary. My wife and I have watched it several times and have enjoyed it. The choice of music fits the images perfectly. The shots are captivating and frightening at the same time.

The only complaint I would register is a lack of detail in the narration. For example, after shot Baker during the Crossroads series of tests the narration states that the area was seriously radioactive. How long was it before it could be approached?

Perhaps your intent as director was to focus on the awesome spectacle of the shots themselves, not so much the research of the weapons.

Great film and thanks for reading my comments.

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[–] neverwinter 21 years ago

He made a DVD commentary track with more information, though I don't think it answered your question either. Like you said perhaps the film was more about the footage itself, while there's plenty of information in books or the web.

Seems a ship approached it right after the cloud went away, under 2 hours, but it wasn't 'safe' for weeks:
http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/cushing2.htm
http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/1994/mj94/mj94WeisgallAble.html

Just my own observations here rather than a new post:

With that Baker shot, the commentary mentions you could see a ship being thrown straight up on the right side (or at least the shadow of one). I couldn't see it though, only a ship being raised by the ocean swelling up. Or maybe I'm not getting the fullframe!

Apparently they had 100's of cameras on these explosions, so that must be many hours of raw footage. Wonder whether he went through them all to pick these out and just what percentage of all footage he had access to, because a fair few of these are pretty 'standard' shots but much clearer than what I've seen in the past. As said in the commentary a lot of the film was in real bad shape.

Only minor thing I would point out is what 'seemed' like to be the use of faked explosion noises (I've never heard a real nuke :P), and surely you don't get a boom right away with the flash, though one could argue that the position of a camera doesn't have to be same as the microphone. There must be plenty of actual recorded audio somewhere. Excusable for the sake of art I suppose, but the music was doing fine by itself! Incidentally I recognised the similarity of the music to that in the game 'Outcast' to find out it was indeed the same composer.

Would have been nice to see a techical section about the stages of the blast, effects, and the various cloud structures you see form and under the various conditions of air, water and space, since this is something not easily done by text (how was that implosion visualisation done?). More of them amazing Rapatronic morphing sequences would fit in nicely to help explain. Probably would take up an hour though, and since this was more of a nice visual timeline account than a science lesson maybe it's something for another film - though would be an even more limited audience!

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[–] vce 20 years ago

The intent of "Trinity and Beyond" was to present an overview. Many details are left out but the history of the bomb and testing had never been told. However, those who are interested and compelled by the subject matter, go on to learn more. And there is plenty to learn on the subject.
Pete

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[–] Bush_Pilot 9 years ago

The intent of "Trinity and Beyond" was to present an overview. Many details are left out but the history of the bomb and testing had never been told. However, those who are interested and compelled by the subject matter, go on to learn more. And there is plenty to learn on the subject.
Pete

I would not say the story has never been told. It has been told in documentary style since the fifties and sixties. Admittedly, it is biased since it was produced by the US Government but it has been told..... It is pretty scary and it is obvious that sailors especially were exposed to harmful radiation many times and many ways, including returning to the decks of ships to retrieve animals that had been left during tests..... and the hosing down and cleaning of ships involved in the blast and fallout. Much more. I served aboard the navy ship that served as command ship for this Operation Crossroads. We have been streaming these docs on several of the series like Operation Crossroads for the public for years.

http://www.ussmtmckinley.com/crew/videos/index.shtml#crossroads_part_one

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[–] acceleron2001 20 years ago

Dear Peter,

I hope you are well and still reading this board!
Trinity & Beyond was one of the most captivating films I've ever seen, and I hope you continue to produce films of this magnitude that portray the follies
of mankind's nuclear ambition. I've watched it over and over again.

My interest in early nuclear research stems from the fact that my uncle a
flew through a number of mushroom clouds (no joke) in a helicopter during Operation Plumbob in the 1950's, doing research as a chemist for the Army.
His story is harrowing, and I recently sat him down in front of a mic to get it on tape. Apparently, he is one of the few people who didn't become ill over the years, as a number of his colleaques did.

Anyway, I must apologize for suddenly writing this to you through this public forum, but I'm trying to find something out and am hopeful you may be of some assistance.

I'm a producer of music and seek permission to use an audio phrase from the Civil Defense filmclip that was part of Trinity & Beyond in my work. I'm of course curious to know what the copyright details are regarding this audio in this filmclip (I assume the film was made by a gov't entity at that time, but am unsure as to which entity that may be).

The clip I'm referring to begins "Let's face it- The threat of hydrogen bomb warfare is the greatest threat our country has ever known...".

Peter, I thoroughly respect the research, time & effort you have made in compiling the materials for Trinity & Beyond, and hope you can shed some light on this issue for me.

In any event, thank you for a great film and I hope this reaches you!
Very Best Regards,
Tim D.

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[–] vce 20 years ago

While I may be restricted through various contracts to give this to you from Trinity and Beyond, you can obtain a VHS copy of the film (or Beta for extra) from the Dept of Energy in Las Vegas which would then be completely cleared and public domain. I think the number is 877-DOE-FILM or try:
http://www.nv.doe.gov/news&pubs/photos&films/testfilms.htm

Pete Kuran

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[–] tripleo 20 years ago

I have a question regarding some of the larger atomic/nuclear explosions in the film. I've noticed this in footage before. When the super large bombs are detonated, the footage of the explosions look strange. We see a large bubble like object with smaller bubbles within. Looks kind of blobby or nebular... even ameoba-like. Is this because the brightness of the explosion was so exponentially brighter than anything celluloid film can handle that it actualltyy "melted" the film to make the explosion look like some sort of amoeba for a little while before clearing up and looking like a "normal" nuke explo with the mushroom cloud and what-not. It just moves so unnaturally that I can't seem to swallow the idea that this is what a nuke explosion looks like when you get into the higher megaton range. Thanks.

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[–] rmf141 20 years ago

From what I understand of how the film footage was made, you are close in your analysis. What you are seeing is the actual nuclear fireball at its most luminous stages. The fireball is visible by itself immediately after the detonation. As it expands, it cools and, because it is so much hotter than the surrounding air, it begins to rise rapidly. As it rises, it begins to entrain, or "suck up," large amounts of soil, rock, and other material. This material forms the familiar mushroom cloud. The fireball is still inside the mushroom cloud structure, and eventually it cools to the point where it is no longer luminous.

As for the "blobby or nebular" appearance, the film footage you are seeing was made with the film protected behind extremely dense filters. These filters have been described as dark enough to make the sun either completely invisible or just a very dim blob. With the intensity of the luminosity of the fireball reduced to something that can be recorded on film, what you are seeing is the "asymmetry" of the fireball.

Initially, when the fireball is small, its temperature, and thus its luminosity, is pretty uniform. You see a bright sphere (or hemisphere, if it's close to the ground) that shows no detail. As it expands and cools, however, there are portions of it that cool faster than others, "hot spots" caused by uneven distribution of the weapon debris, and other things of a like nature. The blobs and blotches are caused by these differences in temperature and luminosity of the fireball.

If you see the whole sequence, then, you will see the first bright uniform flash, the expanding sphere or hemisphere that becomes increasingly "blotchy," the beginning of the rise of the fireball, and the development of the "cap" and "stem" of the mushroom.

Hope this clears up (no pun intended!) the question about the weird visual effects. If you're interested in seeing some more of these effects, including some VERY weird ones, take a look at http://gawain.membrane.com/hew/Usa/Tests/index.html. This is a very educational site that describes all the atmospheric nuclear weapon tests conducted by the United States. This site will answer many of the questions one might have after watching this excellent documentary.

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[–] tom-1674 8 years ago

When the super large bombs are detonated, the footage of the explosions look strange. We see a large bubble like object with smaller bubbles within. Looks kind of blobby or nebular

It was plasma, not a film issue.

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[–] ThePlatteRiverKid 19 years ago

If Mr. Kuran is still reading these posts, I must say excellent work on this documentry. The musical score was simply magnificent (I especially liked the tracks for the Hiroshima/Nagasaki and Chinese portions).

I've been mystifyed by the terror and power of these weapons probably since I first picked up a book on the subject back in fourth grade. I applaud you for showing the public how they were tested and how terrible they really are.

Your opening title and track really reminds me of an old 50's horror movie, it worked well with the general theme of the movie.

The one thing I missed, although military manuvers were captured on film, was about the troops marching towards ground zero in the Nevada tests. Read quite a few posts on the internet about stories of single soldiers who ducked down in the trench and got out to march on in. That stuff is unbelieveable.

Still, the movie covered the more importiant tests to be documented including of course Trinity but the Crossroads shots, Ivy-Mike, Castle-Bravo, Upshot-Knothole-Grable and Plumbbob-Hood. It was a well balanced look at American nuclear testing.

Again, thank you very much for bringing these tests to public light and thus assuring their preservation for the future.

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[–] sockableclaw 20 years ago

Dear Pete,

Your documentary is absolutely the best documentary I have EVER seen. For my entire life I have been very fascinated with atomic weapons, but yet another part of me is absolutely terrified of them and of the unspeakable damage they can cause. In fact, a recurring nightmare I have had for many nights of my life is of being in a nuclear holocaust.

But yet, no matter how terrified I am of them, I always want to know more and more about them. It is a catch-22 in a way, but such is life.

Thank you for making this, as it was brilliantly made, and the music is outstanding. I've never seen a documentary that is so fun and so scary to watch at the same time.

Sincerely,
Brad

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[–] state3221 20 years ago

Fantastic documentary, one of the best ever in my opinion. The footage of the bombs exploding over Japan are pretty horrific when you imagine what it must have been like for those on the ground.

Is there any chance there will be a UK Region 2 DVD release of Trinity & Beyond?

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[–] larslarslars 19 years ago

Excellent film! Great work finding all the footage and editing it together so nicely.

I am the only one who ponders if there's a connection between cancer and the tests conducted in the atmosphere? I was seriously shocked when I heard/read about the amount of tests conducted.

Thanks!

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[–] mudflap42 18 years ago

I have heard that there is an ongoing class action lawsuit by residents of southern Utah, Nevada, and northern Arizona vs. the US because these areas were downwind from the tests and there were higher incidences of cancer in these areas

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[–] Jordan_Haelend 18 years ago

I wouldn't doubt that this is true. St. George, Utah, is situated in an area that acted as a natual "trap" for radioactive dust and dirt, and its inhabitants have what may be the highest rate of cancer in the U.S. I understand that, at the time, the Army told Truman that the people there were, for want of a better term, expendable.

It amazes me how some people speak so well of the 1950s, an era when those in authority thought nothing of damaging minds and bodies and destroying the lives of the unwitting in the name of accomplishing some objective.

"An Archer is known by his aim, not by his arrows."
-Li Chen-Sung (Richard Loo) The Outer Limits

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[–] tickle_bee81658 19 years ago

"Trinity & Beyond" is a facinating exploration of the United States undertaking of the developement of nuclear weapons. I personally am friends with a man that witnessed the "Teapot" tests in Nevada. His description of being down in a foxhole, and seeing the bones of his arms and hands at the moment of detonation still gives me the shivers! I am amazed at the amount of tests the United States conducted, and the results of all the scientific experiments. The incredible destructive power released provided (Provides?) potential enemies of our country assured destruction if we were ever attacked in such a fashion. I am sure that President Bush considered a limited tacticle response to the tragic events of 9-1-1. I applaud his restrainst and good judgement in not unleashing the powers of our nuclear military against a deserving enemy. A suggestion for a future project? Uncover old film showing the former Soviet Union's nuclear tests and put them into a movie...I'll bet it would be very facinating!

I wrote a report in high school on the developemnet of the atomic bomb (Circa 1975) and have always been facinated by the science that went into the developement and deployment of our nuclear weapons program. Your movie is very educational and informative and I just ordered another 3 DVD's on the subject!

Respectfully submitted,
Dave Blair
Vail, Colorado

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[–] ejg4 19 years ago

Great documentry! I flipped-out while watching TRINITY AND BEYOND,as soon as it finished i rushed out and got myself a copy. Thank you for showing this intresting subject in such a powerful way.
Thanks
Geordie Clarke

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[–] ops101ex 18 years ago

Pete, Trinity and Beyond is one of my favorite films. It doesn't pull any punches, especially with the grotesque irradiated test animals and the human skulls in Hiroshima. In my opinion, the only other historical documentary that is as good is For All Mankind.

However, I have the DVD, and there are a couple things that have been bugging me.

It was a little offputting when there were still photos filmed as though they were real motion picture, such as Redwing Cherokee and Dominic Frigate Bird. There is probably a reason behind this, but it was a bit jarring. Also, first shot during the Crossroads Baker sequence (the underwater one) does not appear to be Baker. I would guess it was the Wigwam shot, as there was underwater photography of that as explained later in the movie. I would have prefered to see it in the Wigwam sequence instead of that Squaw interior still and the quick crossfade to bubbles.

Oh, and apparently it is really hard to get ahold of Tzar Bomba footage, but I thought it would have been a bit more impressive to have a shot of the mushroom cloud from that instead of cutting to Adlai Stevenson so quickly. From the two still images I have seen of it, it is simply terrifying.

Lastly, the DVD chapter markers are a bit too long. I think with a movie with that many seperate parts, it would have been better to place more of them in.

If you ever make a third edition, you should update the ASROC and Polaris Yields, as they are no longer classified.

Anyways, thanks for making an absolutly stunning film.

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[–] Jordan_Haelend 18 years ago

Absolutely amazing documentary, bar none. I wish I could have learned of this stuff earlier!

"An Archer is known by his aim, not by his arrows."
-Li Chen-Sung (Richard Loo) The Outer Limits

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