MovieChat Forums > Rob Roy (1995) Discussion > Are Brits EVER the good guys?

Are Brits EVER the good guys?


Loved the movie, and I'm an American with no vested interest, but why do these period pieces seem always to make the identifably British the bad guys?

Tim Roth in this movie is a typical example of the type. Foppish, mentions somewhere in the film something about learning to speak with the 'proper lisp,' another character calls his sexual orientation into question, he has the sexual morals or a tom cat, hits bound men who can't hit back, etc.

And if there's a movie about the crucifixtion 9 times out of 10 Pontius Pilate has and Oxford accent.



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Strictly speaking, the Scots are British (along with the English and the Welsh). Most movies in which the Scots are the heroes, the English (as their ancient rivals) will be the villains. The are plenty of movies in which the English are the good guys.

The English accents, to many Americans, suggests intelligence or sophistication. So a villain with an English accent is somehow more dangerous because he/she is cleaver.

Since many American audience might laugh at a Pontius Pilate with an Italian (Roman) accent, film makers use the accent of the British Empire in lieu of the Roman Empire.

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yes every james bond film...

i have to return some video tapes

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Whether in British made or in American made movies the Brits are the good guys in World War II movies. That's understandable since the two nations were allies fighting a common enemy. But, as you say, in many period pieces the Brits are the bad guys, and in many cases deservedly so. Any nation that establishes colonies is really guilty of exploiting the native population -- and no nation established colonies to the degree the British did. Britain forced themselves on Ireland, Africa, the Middle East, and the Far East through a combination of business power and military power. Can you imagine the resentment of the native population against the British where ever they planted their flag? It is summed up in the line from the movie Gandhi:
Brigadier: You don't think we're just going to walk out of India!
Gandhi: Yes. In the end, you will walk out. Because 100,000 Englishmen simply cannot control 350 million Indians, if those Indians refuse to cooperate.

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PLease read up on the Colonial history of the Germans, Belgians and yes.. the Americans (displacing an entire race of people in less than 100 years is pretty nasty).

In their comparatively short histories (when compared to that of England/Britain) they did one huge proportion of the damage. The British Empire was the most peacefully dismantled Empire in history.

Just because we were the best at it, doesn't mean we were the worst or most evil.

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and yes.. the Americans (displacing an entire race of people in less than 100 years is pretty nasty).

90% of Native Americans in the Americas were killed directly though mass murder, indirectly though disease brought from Europe, and enslavement or displaced by EUROPEANS in the 16th and 17ht centuries 100 years before there was a US.

That was a European genocide.

by the way of the 11 to 16 million Africans brought to the new world, less than 800,000 came to North America at all. African slavery in the New world was a very European project

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I think you pwned him!

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Where do you think the American Revolution came from? The colonies felt American, not British/French/Dutch/Spanish...
And no, 90% of American natives were NOT killed or displaced before the establishment of the US. Please look up the geographical extent of the pre-US European colonies...

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[deleted]

from 1520-1570 the population of Mexico declined from 22M to 2 Million.

The plymouth settlers came onto an area containing large villages completely de-populated by smallpox prior to their landing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#/media/File:Acuna-Soto_EID-v8n4p360_Fig1.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox#Epidemics_in_the_Americas

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[W]hy do these period pieces seem always to make the identifably British the bad guys?

You mean like Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World and Captain Horatio Hornblower, R.N. and H.M.S. Defiant and The Scarlet Pimpernel and . . . ?

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Lazy + smart = efficient.

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But Hornblower & the Scarlet Pimpernel are characters created years ago. prior to WWII (which I sense is the watershed event in terms of depictions of the British in pulp culture.)

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But Hornblower & the Scarlet Pimpernel are characters created years ago. prior to WWII . . .

I don't recall either your subject heading or your question making any reference to WWII, and if that's what you really meant, I don't know why in the world you'd mention Pontius Pilate.

But even with the goalposts thus moved, two of the films on my very short list are still period pieces featuring characters created after WWII.

You asked whether the Brits are "EVER the good guys" in "these period pieces." The answer is yes, and we've given you some examples. Most of them are still applicable even if you now want to restrict the question to characters created since 1945.

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Lazy + smart = efficient.

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The 'but' wasn't meant to be combative - nor was the opening post meant to be restrictive. Never set up goal posts in the first place. What motivated the post was the Tim Roth character in Rob Roy - a good character, well played, but very cliche. Brit upper crust, a lispy, sadistic little git with a hyper-developed sense of entitlement. It's a pervasive villain type - you see him all the time. And in a good/evil story you're much more likely to see a British character cast as the villain rather than the hero.

You're right, tho, in that you and others have given examples of 'good' Brits.

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It's a pervasive villain type - you see him all the time. And in a good/evil story you're much more likely to see a British character cast as the villain rather than the hero.

Fair enough, but in this case it's hardly surprising since the hero is a Scot (and, as has already been pointed out, therefore also British; even aside from any other considerations, Scotland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain by the time of the film). Here the villains are specifically English, which is a different matter.

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Lazy + smart = efficient.

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"Here the villains are specifically English, which is a different matter."


Also...keep in mind that not ALL of the bad guys were English. Archibald's accomplice-the dude who helped him steal Rob Roy's money- was Scottish.

"I snort. I drink I kill. I am not a kid-I am a man."

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yep..montrose was a scot
i have to return some video tapes

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yep..montrose was a scot

He means Killearn.

In real life, James Graham, 1st Duke and 4th Marquess of Montrose, was indeed a Scot. But he's heavily fictionalized for this film (he was actually younger than Rob Roy and already a duke at the time the film is set), and among other things they seem to have made him English.

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Lazy + smart = efficient.

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''But he's heavily fictionalized for this film (he was actually younger than Rob Roy and already a duke at the time the film is set), and among other things they seem to have made him English.''

He is played by an Englishman but the film never suggest he is such. The thing is that he is very well-spoken, as many Scottish lords are.

''Some history, it's the English who have been major league shytebags for centuries, when movie makers show them as villains there is some historical truth. Even Winston Churchill acknowledged their sins in his tome History of the English Speaking People.''

A very bowdlerized view of history. The area of England I live in was invaded by Scottish kings on many occasions, and then you had MANY Scottish leaders of British imperialism. So in actuality, the Scots and English have both been ''shytebags''.

'' For hundreds of years England was the big bad ass superpower of the world, with fingers in every political pie. In case you have forgotten, we in the USA had a bit of history with them ourselves, lol. (The British might sometimes forget this. Similarly, we are sometimes mystified at Britain's harsh rivalry with German sports teams. An American had to be reminded, "Because Germany BOMBED us, idiot." Oh. Right.)''

England was not a major superpower for very long. You are thinking of the British Empire, which included Scots by the way. And ''British'' - which you are seeming to use instead of ''English'' - refers to Scots and Welsh too.

And US history is very nuanced to say the least. You were British originally, you didn't just have problems with Britain such as a native group would. The Colonies broke away for some admirable reason but many still considered themselves either English (more commonly; they even spoke of throwing off the Norman yoke (e.g. the British Empire) or British (less common).

England didn't own Scotland, the two countries were unified under a SCOTTISH dynasty (House of Stuart).

Formerly KingAngantyr

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Churchill added to those sins helping bring WWII about.

The Scottish people where oppressed by the British Empire, regardless of their Monarch being technically united. James I actually did not want them permanently united. His successors becmae more and more culturally English. But once the Glorious Revolution happened and then the Bank of England was set up Scotland became an occupied territory, regardless of what propaganda says.

"When the chips are down... these Civilized people... will Eat each Other"

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"And in a good/evil story you're much more likely to see a British character cast as the villain rather than the hero."

I think that's especially true for American movies. Which constitutes, you know, most movies... In movies that take place in the US, with American characters/heroes, it's easier to distance yourself from a villain with a British accent. He would be different/strange/alien, "not one of us." Easier to dislike him then. Think Bruce Willis and Alan Rickman in Die Hard.

This also applies to period movies with Scottish or Irish heroes, because of the colonial history.

Another thing is, like someone said, a British accent often suggests intelligence or sophistication (An Upper Class English accent, that is, like Tim Roth's, I doubt the same think would apply for the cockney...!)
and can thus make the villain seem more dangerous.


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"The best kind of fairytale is one where you believe the people" -Irvin Kershner

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Alan Rickman was great in Die Hard.

Another thing is that the Brits, with there emphasize on live theater, really seem to give a theatrical flair to their performances. That helps if you're trying to convey sinister and menacing.

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I'm four years too late, but there's a great Jaguar commercial that makes the same observation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7gR7EYjcP8

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In movies that take place in the US, with American characters/heroes, it's easier to distance yourself from a villain with a British accent. . . . Think Bruce Willis and Alan Rickman in Die Hard.

To whatever extent Alan Rickman had a "British accent" in Die Hard, it was an accident. He was supposed to sound German.

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Lazy + smart = efficient.

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"To whatever extent Alan Rickman had a "British accent" in Die Hard, it was an accident. He was supposed to sound German."

Woops...My mistake :/

I stand by my general point, though :) In that case being German means they still achieved the Foreign Effect.




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"The best kind of fairytale is one where you believe the people" -Irvin Kershner

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I stand by my general point, though :) In that case being German means they still achieved the Foreign Effect.

They did indeed -- twice over, if we count the nationality of the actor.

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Lazy + smart = efficient.

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Some history, it's the English who have been major league shytebags for centuries, when movie makers show them as villains there is some historical truth. Even Winston Churchill acknowledged their sins in his tome History of the English Speaking People.

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To be as concise as possible...
To be in power 99.999999999 % of the time and anywhere.. you must be a ruthless, lying son of a bitch.
Ready to stab your friends in the back and ready to do whatever it takes....
Thats the way its been and will at least be for a long time...
Maybe someday that might change.. but ... I don't think so....
Old saying.. 'Only the good.. die young'...
Thinking it otherwise, won't make it so..

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I am utterly and intolerably sick of foreigners (I won't just say Americans, even though they make up the majority) basing their entire knowledge of history off films.

Britain did not oppress the Scots; that makes ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY no legal, political or geographic sense.

The English were not the only ones to colonise and/or subjugate people. EVERYONE DID IT, EVEN THE VICTIMS. YOU GET ME?

Fu-0k me people are thick as *beep*




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I saw one where English were the good guys and Irish were the bad guys, but it was made by English. I can't think of a single American film where English are the heroes and some other group are the bad guys.

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Probably because they're evil Rothchild lackeys.







Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

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one poster said ww2 was the turning point in film attitudes towards the british. Look at it another way: how many "sound" movies were made before ww2, period? talkies started in what, late 20s, early 30s? Although film had passed its' infancy, nobody can say there were more movies made before the war than after, lol. ;-)

Here is a second issue. Ever notice how Disney movies use various ethnicities in their animated films (sometimes with an unfortunate racist overtone)? The vastly different voices are needed to distinguish one character from another, because a cartoon's lip movements aren't enough. Accents provide distinction even for human actors.

The third reason was also touched upon. For hundreds of years England was the big bad ass superpower of the world, with fingers in every political pie. In case you have forgotten, we in the USA had a bit of history with them ourselves, lol. (The British might sometimes forget this. Similarly, we are sometimes mystified at Britain's harsh rivalry with German sports teams. An American had to be reminded, "Because Germany BOMBED us, idiot." Oh. Right.)

Fourth is the stratified class system of England, which we revile just as much in our own Bostonian, Harvard, private school types as in the British "public school" (fyi Americans that means private school over there, lol) privileged and titled types. In theory everybody in the USA has the same opportunities as everyone else. We don't, but in theory we do, and that makes British society objectionable.

And now the ironic final point. As the "last remaining superpower in the world" ... the USA is now suddenly the playground bully. I'm sure we are the first choice for "foreign villains" in most movies made around the globe. :-D

Of course, as is typical of our (admittedly lamentable) provincial and insular attitudes ... we've never seen those movies, and we don't care, lol.

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