A Lie from Beginning to End


This is a good movie and I enjoyed it as a work of almost total fiction. The facts are that Henri Young was a murderer, bank robber and a kidnapper who did state time in Washington and Montana before being sent to Alcatraz. He did not spend 3 years in a dungeon; did not murder another inmate minutes after being released from solitary confinement; was not brutalized by prison officials as the movie depicts; and, most important, did not even die on Alcatraz as the movie claims. He was transferred to the facility at Springfield, MO (as was Robert Stroud, the famous Birdman of Alcataz, years earlier), finished his federal time, was returned to the state of Washington to finish his state time and was released to the streets in 1972 after which he jumped parole. What happened after that are unknown but, although he'd be in his 90's, he could still be alive today.

The lies in this movie are too numerous to mention here, but if you are interested, go to http://www.alcatrazhistory.com/hyoung.htm to get the official story, and the truth, of Henri Young.

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IT ISN'T A DOCUMENTARY FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!!THE FILM AND THE PERFORMANCES ARE BRILLIANT.

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First off, cool down, stop yelling. I said the movie was good, maybe even great. But it was purported to be "based on a true story" then was a virtual total lie. Literary license is one thing but to make a movie that is full of lies and destroys the reputations of prison workers everywhere is shameful. I worked for the Federal Bureau of Prisons when this movie came out and it did a lot of damage. I would like to see the three principal actors, Bacon, Slater and Oldman renounce their parts in the film much like Burt Lancaster did when he found out the truth about Robert Stroud, the famous "Birdman of Alcatraz." When a movie is made that is supposedly "based on a true story" then the story tellers have an obligation to tell mostly the truth. That's the way I feel about it anyway.

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Now they say "inspired" by true events, which is probably an accurate term

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Now they say "inspired" by true events, which is probably an accurate term

^^^^ Ummmm, no, not really accurate. Read his Wikipedia page. Hollywood took the name of a real prisoner and then created a fictional story to further a political agenda.

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I think most people would be surprised just how "Loosely" based most movies are that claim to be "based on a true story"...

....in most cases, the inspiration for such movies is an actual true story, ....but thats as far as it goes and the writer takes the story from there and adds his own imagination and plots to make the story worthy of the big screen....but after they're finished, they still have to point out that the movie was "based on a true story".

As for the ending....in cases such as this, when a prisoner commits a crime in prison, he will go on trial...and win or lose....he still has to return to the original prison to serve his original sentence....to be moved to another institution would take a motion filed on his behalf by his lawyer....and that would take time....so immediately after the trial were over, he would still have to go back to alcatraz until that motion could be heard...

....the warden would have still been there at the end....he wouldnt have been removed from his position solely based on his testimony in a trial....it would take an investigation that would again take time....and during that investigation he could be allowed to continue to serve as assistant warden or suspened with pay pending the outcome of the investigation....all of which would take time....so it's no unbelivable that he would still be there when Young's trial was over.

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If you watch any movie thinking it is "true" you deserve to be lied to.

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I haven't seen ALL of this movie yet and I don't really like it at all.

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"THE ROCK" was more accurate than this piece of crap.
A total lie! Henri Young was a punk and this movie
is garbage not mention a total fake.

Though if they were to do another "Planet of the Apes"
Bacon has a role of "Cornelius" down good!

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This movie is not a lie as jreeb claims it to be. The only thing that they made up for the movie was when the sister came to talk to him in the prison. Also, he only stole a loaf of bread instead of $5 since his parents died when he was 10, he had a youger starving sister to take care of, and the shopkeeper he went to, to ask for a job rejected him. Therefore, he stole that piece of bread.

And Hanry Yound did die on Alcatraz.

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You are sorely mistaken in your facts.

Henry "Henri" Young was a career criminal. He robbed banks, stole cars, and murdered. He made enemies of nearly everyone on Alcatraz, guard, civilians, and inmates alike. He did spend two years in a solitary confinement cell (NOT a dungeon as the movie claims.). He had planned Rufus McCain's murder for the two years since the ill-fated excape attempt that cost Arthur Barker's life (Both McCain and Young were involved in the escape). He was finally paroled in 1972 after being transferred to Springfield, Missouri. It's possible he is still alive today.

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This movie is a total lie. I work at ALCATRAZ with the NPS and have worked out there for the last 3 years.

First
HY did not die on Alcatraz, he was sent to another prison, where he jumped parole and vanished.

Second.
He spend 19 days in solitary confinement, not 3 years.

Third
The only thing that HY ever stole to help someone else, was himself. The whole feed the sister thing is a load of crap.

Fourth
He did not kill as soon as he got out of solitary, he waited a year before that actually happened and it was over a botched escape attempt.

Fifth
If you believe this movie, despite the facts, you are a idiot.

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I agree with jimiacrobat 100%.

Although I think Hollywood shouldn't be allowed to use actual names, dates, and settings to tell a story and claim it is based on actual events, I am glad, in this particular case, that this story isn't true. It would be horrible if this really did happen.

If Hollywood would have used a fictitious name and not claim it was true, or even partly true, I would be a much happier person.

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It clearly says at the beginning "this film is inspired by a true story" not "based on a true story" like was posted earlier, this is how the film manages to get away with being a virtual total lie.

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You think the history of American prisons is what not filled with horrific injustice. WAKE UP CALLL ! The United States has 5% of the population of the world and 25% of all the world's prisoners. Does that sound like justice to you ?

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I would like to hear more about Alcatraz. I find the persona of the island verry interisting. You should have youre own web site.

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No, "irule ps" Young did not die on Alcatraz, he was eventually released on parole and vanished and could still be alive. I worked for the Bureau of Prisons for 27 years and I have a copy of Henri Young's central file which includes copies of his physical when he arrived at the United States Medical Center for Federal Prisoners in Springfield, MO. By the way, his physical shows nothing about the achilles tendon the "associate warden", played by Gary Oldman, supposedly cut. So there's another lie to add to the list. Don't you dare tell me I made anything up. The movie begins with a lie, ends with a lie and it's all lies in between. About all they got right was that his first name was spelled "Henri" and he did time on Alcatraz. Tell me, just what are your qualifications for the statements you made?

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The people here who have been saying this movie is a lie all probably got their information from one website, I gauruntee none of you have worked at Alcatraz or that any of you have a copy of Henri Young's "central file." I'm not saying that the movie was actually true, but why would they go to such lengths to lie and then say based on true events. Some of the events must have happened.

Action and Reaction

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It appears we have some people on the extreme sides of the fence here. I agree with most, in that this movie has decided to stretch the truth to have the film go'ers side with Henri/Henry. But to call it a total lie.........Somome mentioned above that any one who beleived this movie deserved to be lied to...Well I'll put it another way....anyone who thinks this movie is a total lie is walking around with blinders on.

1) The Rock was a brutal prison and beleived in cruel and unusal punishment. I have no doudt that Henri young was mistreated in prison and spent long periods of time locked in the "dungeons".

2) Bobby Kennedy mentioned Henri Young while making the decision to close Alcatraz

3) Anyone who is currently using links sponsered or ran by Alcatraz Historical gorups should be ashamed of yourselves....Those who work for that prison will glady lie to cover up blemishes. (the lie has been going on for so long they might not even know the truth

4) No one here was there at that time, an cannot prove anything!

As a movie I fully enjoyed it.

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You don't bother to read previous posts, do you.

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I'd like to point out that the Amityville Horror is "based on a true story".

I found this film very moving. Regardless of it's truth. I don't expect any film I see to be 100% true as they are films, not documentarys, and both are usually portrayed from a biased one-sided perspective. If the story portrayed in the film is true then it's shocking, if it's not then it's simply a moving and well acted story.

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1) The Rock was a brutal prison and beleived in cruel and unusal punishment. I have no doudt that Henri young was mistreated in prison and spent long periods of time locked in the "dungeons".

By the time Young was there, there were no dungeons. But there was solitary confinement, a total of six cells, if memory serves me right, as there is in every prison operating today, except it is called disciplinary segregation. The "hole" at Alcatraz was the end of the line in the Federal System since there was no death penalty, except for treason, in Federal law. There was nothing left for prison officials to do to a person who absolutely refused to cooperate with the program. No, it wasn't an easy prison to do time, it wasn't meant to be. But it was no worse than many prisons still operating today. You have to remember that this was 40+ years ago that it closed. Many court cases and penal "refinements" have been made since then. So we're more enlightened now. Alcatraz can't be compared to prisons of today, nor should it be.

2) Bobby Kennedy mentioned Henri Young while making the decision to close Alcatraz.

I'm very interested in this statement. Please provide a website where I can review Kennedy's statements. Young was moved to Springfield, MO in 1948 a full 15 years before Alcatraz was closed in 1963. By that time, Henri Young was incarcerated at Springfield, was a virtual non-entity to the Bureau and no more than a faint memory to prison officials. If Kennedy did mention him I would find that remarkable, so I'd like to review Kennedy's remarks if you would kindly provide a source. Alcatraz was closed due to cost. Its concrete was falling apart from the salt air; the metal, including bars, locks and such, were corroding and needed to be replaced; it ran on antiquated DC current; there was no fresh water on the island it all had to be brought in by boat; the sense of alienation was nearly as bad for staff living on the island as it was for the inmates. Staff who lived on the island could go to San Francisco, by boat, only a couple of times a day so it was a type of "prison" for staff as well It was simply too costly to maintain and it was outdated. It had outlived its usefulness. It was replaced by the United States Penitentiary, Marion, Illinois which was, at the time, a much more cost effective alternative and much more modern in design. State of the art for the period. The facility at Marion is still open but has been replaced as the Bureau's "supermax" by a facility in Colorado.

3) Anyone who is currently using links sponsered or ran by Alcatraz Historical gorups should be ashamed of yourselves....Those who work for that prison will glady lie to cover up blemishes. (the lie has been going on for so long they might not even know the truth.

Again, I am not using Alcatraz Historic websites. I do have a copy of Henri Young's central file. I am going by documented court records and his documented history with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. As I said, I worked for the BOP for 27 years and in that time I made more than a few contacts. I know what I am talking about. By the way, the website I've seen was the National Park Service's and they've interviewed both inmate and staff to come up with what they believe is a fair and accurate assessment of Alcatraz. I've taken the tour, they don't pull any punches in favor of the government. Have you taken the tour?

4) No one here was there at that time, an cannot prove anything!

You are right, nobody in this discussion was there, but the official records were there and they tell the story. I guarantee you that if it went to court today the Bureau of Prisons could, beyond a shadow of a doubt, prove that "Murder in the First" was, just as I said, a pack of lies. The BOP has the documented history. The movie company has a script designed to shock, denigrate and enrage. In other words, designed to sell tickets, popcorn and sodas.

It is so easy to produce a movie with the general theme of "man's inhumanity toward man." What about Henri Young's inhumanity and his victims. People are always so willing to believe the convicted criminal, the documented liar. In turn, they are so quick to call the dedicated staff who put their lives on the line everytime they go to work to protect society from such scum, liars. I'll never understand that.

Go ahead, "another boiling frog" file with the BOP under the Freedom of Information Act. You'll find out the truth of this movie.

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As per the Encyclopedia:

Henri Theodore Young (born 1918) was a prisoner at Alcatraz who attempted to escape with two other inmates, Arthur Barker and Rufus McCain and is best known for being the main character in the movie Murder in the First.

Young became a bank robber and was known for aggressively taking hostages.[1] In 1933, he committed murder.[1][2] After spending time in prisons in Washington state and Montana,[1] he was sent to the federal prison on Alcatraz Island. On the night of January 13, 1939,[3] Young, with prisoners Rufus McCain, Arthur Barker, Dale Stamphill, and William Martin, attempted to escape.[3] Martin, Young, and McCain surrendered, while Barker and Stamphill refused to surrender and were subsequently shot.[3] Barker eventually died from his injuries.[3][2] Allegedly, Young and McCain were sentenced to long terms each in solitary confinement, but they were back in the prison general population within months. A year later, Young killed Rufus McCain by plunging a spoon into his neck; he never revealed his motive.[2]

Murder in the First alleges that Young was tortured after his escape attempt, that he killed McCain in the cafeteria immediately after his return to the general population, and that he was found dead in his prison cell in 1942 just before his appeal with the word “victory” on the wall.[1] However, many of the events depicted in the film are historically inaccurate -- in reality, Young was released from segregation after only a few months[1] and killed McCain more than a year later.[1]

The real Henri Young remained in Alcatraz until 1948,[1] and then stayed at the United States Medical Center for Federal Prisoners at Springfield, Missouri[2] until 1954, when Young was transferred to the Washington State Penitentiary at Walla Walla[2] to begin a life sentence for the murder conviction in 1933. He was put on parole in 1972, but soon disappeared; his whereabouts today are still unknown.[2]

While it is true that the court appointed two attorneys to represent Young, only one, James Martin MacInnis, is worthy of note. At the time of the trial, MacInnis was around 26 or 27 years old (to answer some complaints that Christian Slater was too young for the role) and was to craft an illustrious career in California trial law. MacInnis and his wife Edith were killed in traffic by a drunk driver in 1979[4]. They are survived by three children.

Footnote: I'm not pissed the movie didn't follow history. What DOES piss me off is that the Film Makers make Un-Factual statements at the end of the movie; and present them in Copy (type) so we are supposed to take them as fact. For that
Marc Rocco should be ashamed of himself.

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And you are getting your facts from where????

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Apparently some shill from the Hollywood whores has turned up.

Anyone with half a brain can look up the truth, which certainly wasn't found in this film, excellent though it was as a dramatic effort.

Young was convicted of murder in 1933, long before he saw Alcatraz, as well as other brutal violent crimes, including armed robbery (during which he beat someone half to death).

Young was later transferred to the Springfield prison, them McNeill Island (for a Washington State crime), and eventually released. No one knows what happened after that, but he could still be alive in his 90s.

Apparently your Google was broken.

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How many of you want to say Gladiator was based on a true story. It wasn't. It had people playing parts of real people that existed but actually a lot of that movie is completely false. It may not have said it was based or inspired but the it was a given so they didn't need to. Commodus never killed his father but was considered one of the worst emperors of Rome. Maximus was an emperor. Commodus fought in the area many times but was never killed there. He was not responsible for Maximus's family deaths. There was a lot of story with very little truth. White Squall is another movie they flat out say was a true story and it so far from the truth. Titanic was probably was of the most accurate movies that came out. no, the love story was not there but there are so many factual things that actually happened cause it is documented. There were people seen busting through the walls while the ship was sinking. Third class passengers were held below. People were arrested and held below even though the ship was sinking.

But so many people attack that movie. Why?

And please anybody that says A Perfect Storm was better than Titanic has got to possibly have something wrong with them. They say A Perfect Storm was a true story as well but how can you make a movie about something where everyone died that was out there? Please someone explain it to me. Nobody knows what happened. There are no witnesses. At least Titanic had witnesses.

Now I understand the frustration of things being blown out of proportion with this movie. Yes it was good and yes it makes you think and then when you find out the story isn't even remotely true it can be irritating. But I know all the people whining about the inconsistencies of this movie let other movies live on without criticism basically because they liked them. Why?

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And also to add to it, another movie that has recieved a lot of criticism but no one bothers to take into knowledge that all names, places, some events have changed location and reference is the movie and story of Sleepers. I believe there is truth there. They say there is no record of the murder and no record of the court case ever taking place. You tell me, with how corrupt our govt is getting, what they don't want you to know, they erase from existence. They say that there was also no record ever of abuse taking place in reform schools. Really? If that is true then why after the book came out all these stories popped up all over the nation about sexual abuse happening in reform schools. People have also stated about that movie that the Priest Father Bobby, OF COURSE THAT IS NOT HIS REAL NAME, the person the character is based on has claimed no truth to the story whatsoever. How the hell does this person know that they found the right guy. They say he kept the name of the church he attended. No maybe he just claimed another one in the area. AGAIN REPEATED, ALL NAMES, PLACES, EVENTS HAVE BEEN CHANGED. I do believe the story took place. I do believe they killed that guard. I do believe they got off when a priest that knew them from childhood saw pity and testified for them on their behalf and was not exactly congratulatory about it. That is why in the book and also in the movie he is not there at the end celebrating their freedom. We don't know exactly what took place. We can only take the author and the filmmaker's interpretation of the author, which almost every scene in the movie is taken straight from the book, dialogue and everything. They refer to A Safe Place, the author's first autobiography where supposedly there is contradictions between the two. No he found out the truth about his father after he got out of the reform school. The reason why he didn't mention his friends even though they were a big part in Sleepers is because they weren't a part of A Safe Place. That book was about him and his father. The govt is not going to want to admit that the court got manipulated by a kid lawyer either. God would you?

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The thing is "tferreria23" that Gladiator, to my best recollection, did not start with the line "based on a true story." Therein lies the difference. Further, the Roman Empire, the Caesars, those people of Rome no longer exist. The Bureau of Prisons does exist as do the people who work for that agency. They take pride in their work and this movie damaged and discredited those who worked for the BOP then and those who work for the BOP now.

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So are you saying everything was perfect back then. No one made mistakes in the bureau. The Bureau of Prisons may or may not be better than it is now. But you can't possibly say that the prison system was perfect then and that they may not be even a slight chance Young was mistreated in any way.

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Because the other movies you refer to, don't put text up on the screen after the flick making you believe you just watched a Documentary.

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Neither did murder in the first. It have had an epilogue but plenty of movies have that. Sleepers initially did but I don't think it is on the dvd or bluray. But the vhs had it.

But since I wrote that about Sleepers I have come to the conclusion that the author probably wasn't telling the complete truth and there was too much liberty in the story that made other things not add up.

And also just because there is text on the screen at the end of the movie doesn't mean you just watched a documentary. Murder In The First was a dramatization of the real incident mainly the trial.

Changeling had an epilogue too. That was based on a true story. Epilogues don't mean the movie you just watched was a documentary.

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*cracks up* "stop yelling" ??? lol thats funny for so many reasons I can't even believe it. *rolls eyes*

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I agree this becomes especially true in a society who does less reading and more watching. It is why as a parent I have chosen not to take my kids to see Hollywood "history" movies. I have spoken to even adults who believe that Pocahontas and John Smith were lovers, that Robert Stroud (The Birdman of Alcatraz) was a descent guy who raised birds in Alcatraz and William Wallace was a poor man who was secretly married right before he got in trouble with the English.

I could go on and on, I will say that I don't mind the fictionalized stories if they are not that important to our history and I don't even mind when a film maker chooses to claim a fictional piece as a true story. I believe the Cohen brothers did this in one of their movies. It is more when fiction gets mixed with truth that I have a problem with involving an important aspect of our history.

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Do you believe whatever you read?
I saw the site and who's behind it?
Prove that the story isnt real!!

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Do you believe everything you see in the movies? What I have read on the subject had no profit motive behind it. Can you say that about the movies you see?

The only way I could prove it isn't true is to send you my copy of Henri Young's file and I refuse to do that. Give me a way to prove it that will satisfy you. Here's some suggestions for you: File with the BOP under the freedom of information act. Take the tour. Request information from the courts in the state of Washington. Do some research beyond looking at a movie that has a profit motive behind it designed to sell tickets. I am absolutely confident you will find that I am correct about this subject.

You've got two people in this conversation who have real experience beyond seeing this movie, expertise which you lack, totally. One is a former Park Service employee and another (me) a former Bureau of Prisons employee. Neither of us has anything to gain by telling the truth. The Park Service employee wasn't employed at Alcatraz as a prison official. He's read the research and told you the true story. My career with the BOP began 11 years after the prison was closed. I've done the research and know the truth about Henri Young. Why is it you choose to belive the people who simply want to sensationalize an otherwise unremarkable story of a murderer and thief with the motive of selling tickets and making money, rather than the two people who have credible expertise on the subject of Henri Young and have no motive other than to set the record straight? It absolutely makes no sense to me.

And why is it that public is so quick to believe the "inhuman prison official" stereotype? It is one of the oldest in movie history. ("The Birdman of Alcatraz" was a pack of lies too and Burt Lancaster denounced his part in it when he learned the truth of Robert Stroud). Are there bad prison workers? Sure. There are also bad cops, bad teachers, bad priests, bad military personel and on and on and on. But the vast majority of prison workers go to work each day not knowing if they will go home that night. And they do it to protect society, people like you "prettygirl4BCC" from modern day Henri Young's and many more much worse than him.

Want to know a good movie about Alcatraz? "Escape From Alcatraz" with Clint Eastwood follows the facts pretty well. The events in the movie were compressed, time wise, to fit and actually occured over a much longer period of time, but the facts are essentially correct. Except the part at the end where the warden finds the flower on the mainland, that was totally made up.

Prove that it is real. Show me one shred of evidence that doesn't have a profit motive behind it. If all you've got to back you up is "it's in the movie and the movie was based on a true story" then you fail, miserably.

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Ok, here you go. This excerpt is from Crime Magazine. A source not connected with the Bureau of Prisons, The National Park Service, The Alcatraz Alumni Association or any other agency with any motive to cover up anything. Here's the website if you care to check out the validity of it being in the article:

http://crimemagazine.com/alcatraz.htm

"In 1941, Henry Young went on trial for the murder of fellow inmate Rufus McCain, his accomplice in a failed escape. Young's attorney's inaccurately claimed that Young had been the subject of continual beatings by guards and had undergone extensive periods of being left in extreme isolation. Young's story was again inaccurately depicted in the movie staring Kevin Bacon and Christen Slater, titled Murder in the First. The movie claimed Young was a teenage orphan who was sentenced to Alcatraz for stealing $5 from a grocery store in order to feed his starving sister, and that he "never harmed or attempted to harm anyone" before entering Alcatraz.

"The true story is that he was a bank robber who had taken and brutalized a hostage and committed murder in 1933 – some three years before being incarcerated at Alcatraz. At Alcatraz, Young was a difficult inmate who challenged and provoked fights with several other inmates, including Joe Crezter, who was considered a violence risk, and who later murdered two Alcatraz guards during an escape attempt. Young and his eventual murder victim, McCain, had both spent nearly 22 months in solitary confinement for a failed escape that ended in the shooting death of public enemy Doc Barker.

"After Young and McCain returned to the normal prison population, McCain was assigned to the tailoring shop and Young to the Furniture Shop located directly upstairs. On Dec. 3, 1940, Young waited until just after the 10 a.m. count to run downstairs and plunge a knife into McCain. McCain fell quickly into shock and died five hours later. Young refused to disclose his motive for the murder.

"During Young’s trial his attorneys made the claim that because Young had been held in strict isolation for three years that he could not be held responsible for his violent action.

"Warden Johnston was brought in under subpoena to testify on prison conditions and policies. In addition, several inmates were subpoenaed to testify on the environment of Alcatraz and many recounted the "rumors" they had heard of inmates being locked in dungeons and severely beaten by guards. They also testified that they knew of many inmates who "went crazy" because of such treatment. The jury sympathized with Young, convicting him of manslaughter, which resulted in only a few years being added to his sentence. Young continued to be a difficult inmate following his trial and was transferred to the Medical Center for Federal Prisoners at Springfield, Mo. After serving out his federal sentence in 1954, he was sent to Washington State Penitentiary and released on parole in 1972 after nearly 40 years in prison. He finally jumped parole; it is unknown whether he is still alive."

Please note that this exerpt debunks the following:

1. That Young stole $5 from a post office to feed his sister.
2. That Young was a model prisoner "never harmed or attempted to harm anyone" before being transferred to Alcatraz.
3. That Young spent time in a "dungeon." He was kept in solitary confinement, a huge difference which includes a cot, toilet, sink, lighting, etc.
4. That Young died on Alcatraz. As I stated a long time ago, Young was sent to the United States Medical Center for Federal Prisoners in Springfield, MO. He finished his federal sentence in 1954 and was remanded to Washington State Authorities and was released on parole in 1972 and jumped parole. Althought he'd be in his 90's, Young may still be alive today.

All of this is just as I have been trying to tell you. Once you break down, completely, a few of the "facts" of the movie, then all the "facts" must come into question, including:

1. He was sentenced to Alcatraz. Nobody was sentenced to Alcatraz. Prisoners had to fail on multiple levels before being transferred to Alcatraz.
2. That Young was sent to Alcatraz to justify its existence. In fact, Alcatraz was never close to being full and no attempt was made to fill it. One entire cellblock was never used. Getting criminals such as Al Capone, Doc Barker, Creepy Carpis, Robert Stroud and, yes, Henri Young off the streets was all the justification Alcatraz needed.
3. That Young was driven insane in segregation and murdered McCain within minutes of being released to the population. The murder occured about a year later.
4. That Warden Johnston was warden of San Quentin, Folsom and Alcatraz simultaneously and seldom visited Alcatraz letting, instead, an Associate Warden run the facility. That is impossible. San Quentin and Folsom are California State. Alcatraz was Federal. The Warden lived on the island in a house provided him and was there every day he wasn't on vacation.
5. That Young was brutalized by Gary Oldman's character, including slashing his achilles tendon. As I said, I have Young's central file which includes a medical report when he arrived at Springfield. There was no cut tendon.

Your move, "prettygirl4BCC" and all the rest of you who have doubted the truth about Henri Young and chose to believe the lies told in "Murder in the First." I've proved that the most important parts of the movie, the very foundations if you will, aren't true, from an independent source. If the beginning of the movie, that is, that he stole $5 from a post office to feed his sister, and the end of the movie, that he died on Alcatraz, aren't true, then the whole basis for the movie, and everything in between, crumbles under the weight of suspicion and lack of evidence.

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Seriously people, I was looking on here to try and find some reviews for this movie, does anybody realize how UNBELIEVABLY ridiculous this all is? People are coming on here to post their opinions about the movie but all you have is other people coming in and basically telling the previous person that they are stupid. They're OPINIONS! Everybody has one and everyone is allowed to have one.

So basically maybe everyone needs to stop being so nasty to everyone else and just enjoy the movie. Certain people here have been really mean to other people and I think we just need to appreciate the movie for what it is, A MOVIE! It's doesn't really matter whether it was true or not, people can believe what they want, just leave them alone if they choose to have an opinion that is different from yours.

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But it does matter. I was working for the BOP when it came out and employees at that time were very concerned that the agency that they were working for had ever treated human beings that way. Many were ashamed of who they were working for until it was revealed that the movie was, and is, a pack of lies. And it does matter because some of the people who worked at Alcatraz at that time at still alive and their reputations were sullied because of the lies in this movie. As far as name calling I believe I have kept to the high road and only presented the facts. If, however, I got over zealous in my defense of my one time, and long time (27+ years) employer and offended anyone, that was not my intention.

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And, by the way, aliciamarie1980, I was not, and never have, given opinions on this subject. I always have stated historic fact back up by official records, and at least one independent magazine article, on the truth of Henri Young.

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bump

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Let me enlighten again those who think this is "based on a true story" or think its "inspired by a true story". To do historical interpretation for the park service we have access to the National Archives which includes every piece of paper written about inmates. That is all psychological reports, medical reports, fitness reports and everything down to what they wore and ate for breakfast on any given day.

I have researched all of HY's files and none of them have been sealed to the public, not one scrap of paper. Furthermore the movie claims that HY died on Alcatraz. Then why was HY paroled from another prison, with witnesses and paperwork to back up the claim after he supposedly died. Also if he died on Alcatraz where is the DEATH CERTIFICATE. The BOP would not cover up a death certificate because they did not have the authority or access to do cover it up. If anyone died on Alcatraz the body was turned over to the San Francisco County Coroner for autopsy and death certificate. No such record of a death certificate or autopsy exists and never did because Young did not die at Alcatraz or in any other prison.

Finally to film a movie on Alcatraz you need to obtain a permit, if you plan to use Alcatraz as a prime backdrop to the story you must include a historical statement. For the movie "The Rock" to obtain a permit they had to state something in the movie as historical fact. For those who dont know where it was I'll help you since it came and went in a blink of an eye. The scene where Connery and Cage are in the tunnels (that dont exist) and Connery turns to Cage and says "Alcatraz used to be a military prison" that is the historical line that obtained the permit.

When MitF came out all it had to say to obtain the permit was "Henry Young was an inmate at Alcatraz" after that no other factual information was required. HY was small potatoes to the prison. There were other more notorious figures that spent time there such as Stroud, Capone, Kelly, etc. None of their files are covered up yet Young is the cause for the closing of Alcatraz?????

Not at all true, his case had NOTHING to do with the closing of Alcatraz. Rising costs and a crumbling cell block that had to be built plus two famous escapes in the course of one year was the reason for its closing.

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If there's this much uproar over Henri Young, it must really irk jreeb and mailpaulc that Jesse James is portrayed as such a sympathetic fellow in most movies. And don't anybody mention "Bonnie & Clyde" with Beatty and Dunaway or a real fight might break out.

It seems to me that you're more upset about the fact that anyone would have sympathy for Young and anger towards Alcatraz, prison guards, or the Justice system than you are about the quality of the film. So, to continue with that topic, even though this is a movie site, let me say that I agree with the prevailing sentiment that "it's only a movie". Movies can entertain or edify or both. I think that this one just entertains. Yes, it gets a lot of things wrong, but so does every movie about the Little Bighorn up to this point. (Forensic evidence has changed most of what we've been led to believe, but it's still a great story.) As for you're concern that the movie tarnishes the image of BOP personnel or corrections officers or guards or whatever you want to call them, Prison Guards have been portrayed as sadistic thugs in "The Longest Yard", "Silver Streak", "The Shawshank Redemption", "An Innocent Man", and all of those B-grade Women-behind-Bars movies from the '70s and '80s. Did those have no effect on moral? Anyone who joins the BOP knows what they're getting into and how the public percieves them. Chill out. I have to assume you did a good job for the 27 years that you worked for the BOP. Either people get it, or they don't. While you're crusading to set the record straight about Henri Young (who's name I had completely forgotten since I saw the movie years ago, by the way) there are much more urgent things that need setting straight in our lives.

Who knows, someday in the future maybe someone will make a movie that portrays George Bush as a good President and all of us old timers will be sitting around saying Lies, Lies, Lies.

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No what irks me, as you put it is people who claim that this story is true, I'm not talking about the filmakers themselves but people who post here that the story is true and then when they are hit with that truth, they come up with more crap that isnt true about the main character. I wonder if someone came out with a movie that portrayed Hitler as a sympathetic person, mentally stable and totally unaware of the holocaust, would you not want to set the record straight????

Same goes with suckers who believe this nonsense as portrayed in MITF. Some people would rather believe the fantasy than the reality.

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jreeb, you make excellent points and I believe what you say. I also believe that you might as well save your breath with these others who surely will be too lazy to actually do a little research on their own. My father used to say "I don't believe anything I read and only half of what I see". He had a point. I haven't seen this film yet but will soon.

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Thank you. At least I made an impression on one intelligent person who reads this board and that's a start. I simply believe that if a movie is "based on a true story" then it ought to tell a true story, with some literary license, and not a pack of lies. Fact is, there is no story to Henri Young. He was a common, run of the mill, garden variety thug, a true "menace to society." None the less, "bworrell" I appreciate your comments.

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There are many who agree with you including myself. People just don't like feeling duped, and I think that is how many of us feel when we believe something to be true and then find out otherwise. What people do with the truth once they perceive it makes all the difference.

A movie has the unfair advantage of stirring one's emotions. Political commercials count on this.

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There are no rules that a film claiming to be based on a true story must be based on a true story.

Everything that appears on that screen can be fictional.

Take Fargo for example. It says it is based on a true story. The filmmakers have said that's not ture, but it doesn't matter.

Same with the Blair Witch Project.

The Amityville Horror, Psycho, and The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and all their respective remakes and sequels were all based on the Ed Gein murders that happened in Wisconsin, not in Texas, or New York or anywehre those others were set in... Amityville and Chainsaw claim to be true stories, but are set in different ends of the country, both are completely different stories, and yet are based on the same story...

The moral of the story is this... The purpose of a narrative film is simply to entertain, not to inform, like a documentary. If he wanted, George Lucas could say Star Wars was based on a true story. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Filmmakers have the right to put whatever the hell they want into a film.

Lighten up...Does it matter if it's factually acurate, or does it matter if it entertained you, and maybe got some kind of point across or some reaction from you? Just sit back and enjoy the damned movies.

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Bones are you sure Amityville is based on Ed Gein? I always thought it was based on the famous hoax that took place where the film is set?

Besides, Ed Gein was pretty different from the main character of Amityville.

http://www.amityvillehorrortruth.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amityville_Horror

Ed Gein was not a basis for the Amityville Horror. He was for SIlence of The Lambs, Psycho and Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

My complete apologies if you didn't mean to make it sound like Amityville Horror was based on Ed Gein.

Also, there are corrupt prison officials and the judicial system is not without it's flaws. However I can see the points of many people against this film being portrayed as a true story. Mainly because people believe everything spoon fed to them in a film without cross referencing, they see one movie, their mind is automatically made up and they base their opinions on one film and seek to trash many others. The same thing happens today when a liberal catches wind of an anti-Bush piece or a conservative hears of something bad a liberal has done - They go to town with it, won't cross reference and are so bloody ignorant about it they even go as far as to make personal attacks to people.

Anyways, the acting was very well done in this film, and it's a good movie. Lesson here, is take it with a grain of salt and don't base your opinions on the entire legal system based on a film.

PS. It almnost sounds like Alcatraz was a pretty crappy prison - 2 escapes in one year? I always heard how it was this nigh impossible to escape prison, the guards were tough as nails, etc etc. It seems no more hard a place than a medium to maximum security prison of today. Funny...Barbed wire, electronic fences and concrete walls do a better job of keeping people in than a prison on an island. Go figure. (Of course that technology wasn't available back then, but you get what I'm saying.)

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Yeah, you're right about Amittyville. It wasn't based on Gein, sorry. But yes, Silence of the Lambs, Psycho, and Chainsaw were. Sorry about that, my mistake. And yes, the movie has excellent acting, and an excellent story, I simply don't agree with people getting mad at the filmmakers because of a line of text at the beginning of the film that may not be entirely true.

Sorry about that.

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The "escapes" drew attention to the fact that the structure was, literally, falling apart. The movie, Escape from Alcatraz, was a very good one which got the facts straight (proving a prison movie can be true and still be good). It showed that some inmates got through the concrete of their cells with primitive tools. That's how soft the mortar had become due to the moisture and salt air, hence the closing. Technology had moved past more traditional means of confinement. I put escapes in parenthesis because while it is true some inmates got out of the cellblock, and off the island, none were ever seen on the mainland. I've never said it wasn't a good movie. It is riveting, well acted and filmed. It just isn't anything close to the truth.

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I don't want to start the fighting all over again, but I just wanted to say that I don't think anyone who watched this movie did so to learn a historical lesson or form an opinion of the justice system. And I doubt that anyone would allow a single incident portrayed in a movie set eighty years ago in a defunct prison to form their opinions on the justice system as it is today. After all, there have been a dozen movies about Alcatraz, starring Clint Eastwood, Sean Connery, and a handful more of well known actors that, like Kevin Bacon, were not trying to make a statement with the film, but just to create an entertaining, mesmerizing, and touching piece of cinema. I know that what bothered you in this whole thing was that the movie claimed to be based on or inspired by a true story. It doesn't matter. Look at all the episodes of Law & Order that are 'ripped from the headlines'. I can think of one off the top of my head that puts police officers in a HORRIBLE light, of a pair of uniform cops tying a man to their bumper on a back road and dragging him behind their car until he was dead. If that was in fact true (which I don't believe simply by default) then yes those cops should be put away somewhere. But even if I found out that it was true, it wouldn't make me condemn all police, everywhere, forever.

Ripped from the headlines. Based on a true story. Inspired by real events. These are all phrases we have all heard countless times. We DO, on the whole, take it with a grain of salt. I know that as a former BoP officer, it irks you that these phrases are used pretty much with impugnity. But they are, and that's not going to change, no matter how bothered by it anybody is. Because the truth of it is, we identify with those phrases. We see or hear that, and it piques our curiosity. It's a hook to draw us in and it works. And this movie fits the criteria of 'based on a true story', in that there was a convict by the name of Henri Young on Alcatraz at that time, who went on trial for the crime of murdering another inmate. That's all the filmmakers Needed to be able to say that. So the rest.... is it a lie? Or is it just fiction? If it's a lie, then we have to call every movie made for entertainment purposes only a lie, which means none of them are worth seeing. Only documentaries or reality shows. I'll read a book instead.

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The difference with films like Fargo and Chainsaw Massacre is they do not skew the public's view of actual events in history. They only skew your view of their story. I have no problems with this device that the Cohen Brothers and others have used for their fictional story.

l understand the need to reduce characters, fill in imagined dialog and removing events in order to tell the story better. We all know that if movies were presented like someone's journal it wouldn't serve the medium well. What I have a problem with is when filmmakers present an actual event that not only vaguely represents the truth but manipulates viewer to approve or disapprove differently than if they were exposed to the actual reality. This becomes entertaining propaganda and I resent it's influence on popular culture.

This is merely an opinion, I guess I just wish they would be more responsible with the power that they yield. I'm not one to exclaim, "There ought to be a law ..." or feel the need to assemble some sort of truth brigade. I just wish movies like this would replace the names with fictional names if they feel the need to so "radically" change the real story.

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It may be a lie from beginning to end but it's a well acted lie. This is a movie that belongs in a movie buffs collection it's that good.

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The truth is probably somewhere around the middle. Makes me want to break something tho, when some idiot says to look at some official story as it just HAS to be true.

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Law and Order never claims to be based on a true story. The tying of a man to the bumper of a vehicle and dragging him down a back road until he was dead did actually happen in Jasper, TX. in 1997. The crime was racially motivated and the men who commited it were not police officers and received the death penalty. I suppose L&O writers decided making them police officers would add a twist.

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While I agree this film is good and I enjoyed it, to claim "based on" a true story, or the less offensive "inspired by" a true story, and then proceed to completely distort the facts is socially irresponsible. Film is great way to give historical events and issues a newer and wider audience, thereby increasing public awareness. It doesn't matter if people SHOULD remember it's a movie, not everyone will. And why should they when they are being lead to believe the events in the movie really happend? No sane person believes E.T. happend, nor would they even with the claim of true story. No sane person believes Cast Away happend, it's just a great story of survival of the human spirit. Unlike E.T. however, Cast Away is plausible, and if given a claim of true story, rational people are lead to believe the movie depicts actual events. The movie makers who commit this deceptive practice are motivated by self-serving purposes. They want to generate greater interest and therefore lie to the public to increase their profits. This movie took too much of real life and important historical events to be given a fictional license. There were dungeons used in Alcatraz that were shut down after Henry Young's trial. The public became more aware of prison practices and changes were made. No exaggeration was needed, nor was it necessary for the filmmakers to make Young a completely sympathetic character. Even more unnecessary, giving Young's lawyer the last name Stamphill, when it was actually McGuiness. Stamphill was the last name of one of Young's accomplices in his attempted escape.
PS-To the poster who mentioned the Amityville Horror. This story was actually based on Ronald DeFeo murdering his entire family in Amityville, NY. and the account of hauntings by the Lutz family who moved into the DeFeo home afterwards.

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To the various posters, mainly jreeb and paulmailc...

This film is a work of art.

True, various 'facts' in the film are not actually facts and I have read your reasoning why it matters to you so much but, seriously...

The fact of the matter is Alcatraz was a renowned prison for hardened criminals and I, for one, believe that torture and cover-ups were rife. I believe prison guards and wardens, in the majority, have ego problems and like to 'big themselves up' by taking out their frustrations on inmates who can not fight back, or would not be believed if they talked about being abused.

You talk as if you were actually one of the guards depicted in this film, like your life and reputation were actually affected by this film.

The pair of you (I can't remember who said what, I'm afraid) have made various comments throughout this discussion:

You state that Alcatraz can't be compared to prisons of today, nor should it be but go on to say that Alcatraz was no worse than many prisons still operating today :@\

You talk about Escape from Alcatraz. You criticize Murder in the First and say that it was made purely for financial profit. Escape from Alcaraz was made because.....?

And one of you finishes off by saying At least I made an impression on one intelligent person who reads this board and that's a start Don't insinuate that everybody who has read this board is stupid. They just don't believe what you're saying.

Most people will be of the opinion that Alcatraz was a horrible prison, with horrible guards and horrible treatment of prisoners. I believe most people will have that opinion of most American prisons. Unfortunately, British prisons are like recreation centres. We should have more prisons like Alcatraz - complete with vicious guards and no way of escape. Then we might have less criminals roaming the streets.

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[deleted]

I thought the film was a good one regardless of the true facts. Even biographies stray from the real truth. So I put no real stock in a movie makers vision of what may or may not have been.

From a strictly film fan point of view I thought Bacon's performance was very good and Oldham turns in another good "bad man" role.


~LjM
Step on it! And don't spare the atoms!

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First of all, are we talking about the REAL Henry Young, seems like a pretty generic name. Did torture and abuse ever occur in Alcatraz. You seem pretty upset in defending incarceration and "rehabilitation" of federal and state prisoners. America is a penal society. I do not believe there is a rampant storm of criminal behavior at the ground level, as a matter of fact, I believe corporate crimes and abuse of authority from the street cop to the President of the US has damaged society more and cost taxpayers more, but we EXCUSE those crimes and demonize and kill petty criminals and drug couriers. Is this civilization? Are you proud of this civilization we live in where families are destroyed and peoples lives are destroyed simply to place pride in a system that incarcerates its citizens? If criminals are indiscriminately killing, I say hang them publicly. If they are in the least not guilty, we must strive for truth, not political showboating our merciless inhumanity. I believe we have to lock up a large part of our society to CONTROL and MANIPULATE the electorial and democratic balances that keep those in power powerful, since felons cannot vote, we need to keep a healthy population of criminals and felons from participating in a truly civilized society. Could I be wrong?

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For a well documented (copies of original docs. etc..) confirming jreeb assertions about Mr. Young.
Alcatraz: A Definitive History of the Penitentiary Years
http://books.google.com/books?id=d_7LYwFRT8EC&pg=PA175&dq=%22H enri+Young%22+alcatraz+facts&ei=Eo7nSLnJLpDetAPHydj2Bg&sig=ACf U3U0UbaSxqd1k93xIO8dak-dmsBHLlg

From the NY Times
A Film On a Case That Shut Alcatraz
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0CE3DD133AF930A35750C 0A962958260
Robert F. Kennedy, then the Attorney General, cited the case as one reason for shutting down the prison, isolated on an island in the middle of San Francisco Bay.

Of course they were just parroting the bs fed to them so who knows if the RFK quote is fabricated also:

Correction: April 6, 1994, Wednesday

An article on March 3 about the filming of "Murder in the First," a movie based on the life of a 1930's convict named Henri Young, included several erroneous descriptions of events in his life supplied by the film makers. A March 16 letter from the Federal Bureau of Prisons points out that Mr. Young went to Alcatraz after serving time in two state prisons for burglary and robbery. His subsequent Federal crime was bank robbery, not theft from a post office. He did not commit suicide at Alcatraz in the 1940's; he completed his sentence there in 1954, then served a term in Washington State Penitentiary for murder. He was paroled there in 1972, and it is not known where he is or whether he is alive. This corrrection was delayed by checking at The Times.

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I realize that most films stray a lot from the absolute truth when they say that they are "Inspired" or "Based" on a true story, but in the case of Murder in the First I admit that I felt jaded when I discovered just how much it skews the facts. The biggest problem that I had was that they turned Henri Young, who was apparently a very evil man, into an extremely sympthetic character who was beaten and abused by guards and officials stationed at a real-life prison when it was operational. They also implied that Alcatraz employed a savage assistant warden during this time, when much of the evidence I have seen is to the contrary. Since a lot of the film relies on the viewers' emotional connection to the story, I feel the film is essentially a failure.

I have no problem with making a fiction film about a corrupt prison warden and a tortured prisoner, but don't set it in Alcatraz; don't set it in a world where everything seems realistic and true, enhanced by the name of a real Alcatraz inmate and an "Inspired by a true story" moniker, and expect people not to be upset when they find out the plot is largely contrived.

Perhaps this is why the film was passed over by so many awards associations.

Connery/Lumet fans!
Please sign this petition to get "The Offence" on DVD!
www.petitiononline.com/sg195114/petition.html

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It coud have been set in a fake prison. True.

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Well said.

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It was a very well made film,with a great performance from Kevin Bacon.Oldman and Slatter were good also.BUT the extreme liberty this film takes is shameful!
Over 3 years in solitary confinement with a half a year to exercise a year!!
He was in solitary for 2 months.Others have pointed out the other falsehoods.
Yes it said inspired by true events,but it shouldn't greatly butcher the truth.
Take for example CHANGELING,Clint Eastwoods fine film,alot of the movie was
true,including the corrupt LAPD trying to pass off a boy as Mrs. Collins son!
Count me in with most of what the OP stated.

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