MovieChat Forums > Mimi wo sumaseba (1996) Discussion > Pinocchio and Snow White Influence?

Pinocchio and Snow White Influence?

posted 17 years ago by Chrisbc-1
26 replies | jump to latest

The scene with the grandfather clock seems to have influence from the Disney films "Pinocchio" and "Snow White"

Pinocchio: In Pinocchio there are numerous clocks with little people figures. This is the best only video I could find. It only has one clock, but if you've seen the film you know there are dozens more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB3eY4YyZto&mode=related&search=

Snow White: Dwarfs digging for precious stones in a mine just like the characters in the clock.

[–] saddletank 17 years ago

I suspect Disney was influenced by general folklore on dwarves digging in mines which goes back centuries in western culture. I think Miyazaki would have drawn his ideas from this same ancient folklore Disney did, rather than Miyazaki drawing on Disney.

Mechanical clocks of the highest quality such as Nishi shows Shizuku have been around 300-400 years, I don't see why Miyazaki would necessarily be influenced by a scene in a western cartoon when there is a rich history of real clockmaking to draw on.

The clock is used to tell us about the Nishi character - who he is, what he does, what motivates him, what is important in life to him. The elderly shop owner character comes from the manga. The clock scene however is Miyazaki's invention (he storyboarded the movie) and he uses it to tell us about two parallel love stories in the movie. Two stories that are almost mirror opposites of each other in their success/failure and their geographical location and journeying.

You need to watch the clock scene and ask yourself "what is the purpose of this scene in the story?" When you answer that, you'll know its a unique scene, designed to further the plot. There is a direct link in there between Nishi-Luisa and Seiji-Shizuku, beautifully done and exquisitely subtle (look at the face of the Dwarf King - where else in the movie do you see that face?). No Pinocchio influence at all.

"I don't speak girl-code. Why don't you spell it out for me!" - Sugimura

[–] Chrisbc-1 17 years ago

Maybe it was just a coincidence, but when I saw the clock scene I was reminded of my childhood favorite "Pinocchio".

[–] excel99 17 years ago

It's no coincidence. Clearly the clock is a reference to both Snow White and Pinoccio. It's not simply that there is a clock with some dwarves, but rather how the clock looks. The moment I saw the dwarves in the clock I instantly thought of the mine scene from Snow White. It's just an allusion, it's not crucial to the storyline. But it's definitely a reference to those classic Disney animated films.

My understanding is that Miyazaki is not a big fan of Disney films. But this film was directed by Yoshifumi Kondo, not Miyazaki. I haven't ever read whether or not Kondo was influenced by the classic Disney films, but based on what I see in Mimi wo sumaseba, I would guess that he was.

[–] saddletank 17 years ago

I knew the Kondo mention would come up. Kondo directed the movie (or rather most of it) while Miyazaki directed the fantasy scenes. However it was Miyazaki's movie - the planning, the proposal and all the storyboarding. Miyazaki wrote the Earth Shop and clock scenes. The characters were taken from Hirogii Aoi's manga designs. Whether Kondo may or may not have been thinking of Disney isn't important, as he didn't write this scene.

To me "mimi" is 60% Miyazaki's work, 40% Kondos (or Kondou if you prefer).

For me I see no reason for Miyazaki to refer back to Disney when there are stronger folklore references, how you can see it's "clearly" and "definitely" a reference when we have no idea, apart from Miyazaki not being a fan of Disney's work, I don't understand.

In all the many times I've watched this movie I never once thought of Disney in that scene. But then I'm English. I suppose if you are American or watch old Disney movies it would be possible to make that link more readily. It's just the mind making associations here I think.

The Japanese race does not have a traditional dwarf tale or folklore as we have in the west. But the Ainu race has such folklore. The Ainu are the native inhabitants of northern Japan. Even today a few Ainu live in Hokkaido. THe village of Ash!taka is Ainu. The Ainu called dwarves "Koropokkur". Koropokkur were skilled hunters and fishermen and kind to the Ainu. Satou Satoru wrote some stories about Koropokkur for children about 50 years ago and the small people became popular. So the idea of dwarf peoples wouldn't be unknown to Japanese storytellers like Kondou and Miyazaki.

"I don't speak girl-code. Why don't you spell it out for me!" - Sugimura

[–] excel99 17 years ago

I'm well aware of Miyazaki's role in this film. I know that he wrote much of it; I know that he did the storyboarding; I also know that he did NOT direct it! You seem to think that's a trivial fact. As director of the film Kondo oversaw ALL aspects of the film. The decision to make a visual allusion to another work of art is not the writer's, per se, nor the storyboarder's. It is the director's decision and if Kondo did want to make such a reference he certainly could have told the actual artists to paint it with that in mind. Whether or not Miyazaki wrote in such a reference isn't important. Kondo was the director so it would have been his call. He certainly shaped Miyazaki's story to express what he wanted. That's why he is called the 'director.'

Also, of course I know dwarves and grandfather clocks aren't Disney inventions. But your missing the point here. Maybe Kondo, an animator, wanted to pay homage to his influences, as seen in other animated films. It hardly matters whether the folkolre references are 'stronger,' as you say (and I would argue that Disney's incarnations are the stronger these days; say the word 'dwarves' to any stranger on the street and I'll bet more people will think of Disney's Snow White than the Voluspa, excepting maybe graduate students in ancient Norse mythology). You make it seem as if no one could allude to Snow White simply because the notion of dwarves predates it. That's not very logical, if you think about it.

You didn't see any connection. I did. The person who started this thread did. I'm sure others have, too. Maybe you haven't actually seen the Disney works, or maybe not since you were a very young child. Maybe you're unaware of the very high regard that many animators have for the early Disney features. It just sounds to me from your post that you don't want there to be any connection, for some reason.

And I still feel that there is 'clearly' and 'definitely' a reference.

[–] Chrisbc-1 17 years ago

Good point excel99.

I knew I wasn't alone in seeing this connection. Maybe if the scene only contained toy dwarves or at least dwarves doing something other than mining for precious stones one could assume there is no allusion to "Snow White". But the fact that the dwarves are mining for precious stones, and the fact that they look very similar in design to the characters in Geppetto's shop makes it too similiar to be a mere coincidence. Even in one doesn't like the story lines of those old Disney films, the quality of the art work on those films has stood the test of time. The painstaking detail in every frame of those films would bankrupt Disney if they attempted to make those films today. This is a little off the subject, but "Spirited Away" has a scene where people turn into animals for consuming food. A similar but much darker scene occurs in "Pinocchio".

[–] saddletank 17 years ago

I'm not going to argue with you, especially as you seem to be getting a little excited here. A storyboard is the screenplay, the script, the story. The movie is the animated extension of the storyboard. No more, no less. A directors art and skill comes into the way the movie talks to the viewer; but it talks from Miyazaki's storyboards.

But this is irrelevant.

Whether the dwarf and clock images come from Miyazaki's imagination or Kondou's is not the point.

American audiences and those raised on Disney may see a Disney connection in the Earth Shop scene. I don't, others may or may not.

And again, completely irrelevant.

What sources or inspiration that a director or writer may or may not have drawn from or had is not relevant to the viewer. The emotion, the communication of a concept, a minor sub-plot, the delight in the pure artwork and suspension of disbelief are what moves the viewer.

This scene moves me in so many ways, both from what is actually on screen, the links the scene creates to other scenes in the story and scenes in my own head it awakens in my own memories of lost love. When I watch this dwarf and princess scene I am a million miles from Disney or even European folklore. I am recalling a girl I knew when I was 14. I'm longing to be in her arms again. The scene makes me cry because of those memories. I find this simple scene one of the most poignant and moving in the story, in a movie packed with touching and near-perfect memory jerkers for me.

Don't even get me started on the emotions the Kompirah-guh scene evokes for me. I can't type coherently when discussing that one.

I'm closing the discussion on Disney at this point. I simply find linking this inspiring scene to something so crass as a Disney movie to be bordering on the offensive. Nice speaking with you.

"I don't speak girl-code. Why don't you spell it out for me!" - Sugimura

[–] excel99 17 years ago

I'm closing the discussion on Disney at this point. I simply find linking this inspiring scene to something so crass as a Disney movie to be bordering on the offensive.

So I was right afterall, you simply don't want for there to be any connection. You may be closing the discussion, but I'll reply anyway just in case someone else wants to join in.

'Something so crass as a Disney movie'? I would agree with you that Disney has made some crappy films over the years, but Snow White is not one of them. Take a poll of 1000 people working in the animation business around the world to see which film they think is the greatest animated film of all time and I'll bet you Snow White would win. You are just being ignorant on this point.

And perhaps you don't know that Miyazaki and Takahata have created plenty of 'crass' animation themselves (ever seen Panda kopanda?). I find it funny that you revere Miyazaki's works as you do and call a classic like Snow White 'crass.'

What sources or inspiration that a director or writer may or may not have drawn from or had is not relevant to the viewer.

It certainly is relevant if the viewer can SEE it right up on the screen. It's definitely relevant if the director WANTS you to see it, or make the connection. By your argument, the little witch doll hanging over Shizuku's desk has no connection to Majo no takyubin, I suppose?

[–] Seto012 15 years ago

Excel99 > Saddletank

"...Something so crass as a disney movie..."
lol, uttering this line is proof of your ignorance.

[–] excel99 15 years ago

Thanks!

I'd forgotten all about this little argument.

Reference or not, how could anyone think Snow White is 'crass'?

[–] heishiro 15 years ago

I don't really know what 'crass means because English isn't my first language but the Prince Charming and Snow White are good examples of badly executed realism. Thankfully later Disney movies have much better human character designs.

[–] Chrisbc-1 15 years ago

They are bad examples by today's standards, but at the time no one else was making better human characters. No one had ever done what Disney did before so there was no foundation on which to improve.

[–] heishiro 15 years ago

The seven dwarves and even the evil stepmother and the hunter have aged better.

[–] excel99 15 years ago

The reason Snow White and the Prince look different is they were primarily rotoscoped, that is, live action footage was shot and the animation plates were created by tracing over a projected image of the live action footage. This was not done for the animals or the dwarves, and the overall quality of those characters is markedly better.

Rotoscoping has advantages and disadvantages. The advantages are extremely natural and fluid movements, and, depending on how it's done, a great saving in cost and time. The drawbacks are shaky lines (called 'boil') and the loss of traditional animation effects, such as 'stretch' and 'bounce.' But most sadly, usually a slavish attention to tracing the figures 'correctly' leads to a loss of artistic style. This definitely happened in Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Look at the beautiful eyes on the animals and the dwarves. Then look at the faces of Snow White and the Prince, with their flat features and 'realistic' eyes. That was the price paid for rotoscoping. It's not lack of ability on the part of the animators, but a pro/con decision by going with rotoscoping.

Disney did use rotoscoping in more limited ways later on. But they mostly abandoned the technique for important characters in their features. Uncle Walt probably noticed the same things you noticed about a drop off in quality.

[–] justsmartenough 14 years ago

So I was right afterall, you simply don't want for there to be any connection. You may be closing the discussion, but I'll reply anyway just in case someone else wants to join in.

No, you are the one who WANTS there to be a connection. It's painfully obvious Miyazaki loves western folklore, dwarves and clocks are not limited to the REAL folk lore nor Disney who just makes money off of said folklore.

I have a horrible feeling in my stomach that you are going to start going on about how Kiki's Delivery Service is actually connected to Harry Potter or any other kid w/ magic powers learns to be adult story.

You sir are trollin. As am I.

[–] excel99 14 years ago

Should I reply, shouldn't I...

Oh well, here goes.

When I see something in a film which LOOKS A LOT LIKE something else I saw in a different film, call me crazy, but I start to think there might be a connection. If the connection was NOT intentional, it's just a coincidence. If the connection IS intentional, it's called an allusion.

Coincidence or allusion in this case? I don't know for sure, but a lot of people have felt there are strong resemblances with the clock and Snow White and Pinocchio. Is that conclusive? No, but a lot of people other than just me have seen the similarities.

And this film HAS OTHER ALLUSIONS. The name on the clock is Pocco Rosso; the witch doll hanging above Shizuku's desk is straight from Kiki's Delivery Service. Clearly, the makers of this film DO ENJOY alluding to other films, so why is it such a stretch that they might pay a wee bit of homage to a couple of classic Disney films?

As to going on about Kiki's Delivery Service, it would be kind of hard for it to allude to Harry Potter, seeing as how it came out more than a decade earlier. But, nevertheless, they are BOTH 'coming of age' stories, so in that sense they have some similarities. They are in the same genre, but I don't see any allusions one way or the other between them.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] excel99 14 years ago

so why is it such a stretch that they might pay a wee bit of homage to a couple of classic Disney films?
As Studio Ghibli =/= Disney.

Because Studio Ghibli is not Disney, that makes it a stretch that they would pay homage to a classic film? Sorry, I just don't see the logic of that rebuttal. So, since Pixar =/= 20th Century Fox, when Zorg says, 'I am your father' to Buzz Lightyear in Toy Story 2, that isn't a reference to the Star Wars films?

If you don't think there is a Disney reference in Mimi wo sumaseba, fine, we disagree. But simply because Studio Ghibli =/= Disney is hardly an argument.

[–] 14 years ago

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[–] Seto012 14 years ago

I'm with Excel99, Walt Disney pioneered animated films to a mainstream audience. Without him, Myazaki and others wouldn't be able to do what they do. So its no stretch that any Japanese animated film would pay homage to Disney

[–] heishiro 14 years ago

But it really isn't the case in this movie.

[–] PopSixSquish 13 years ago

It is entirely possible and quite likely--might not be the WHOLE reason behind the designs, but what with all that the animation industry owes to Disney and how much Miyazaki & Ghibli are known to admire it, I think that's a perfectly logical suggestion.

[–] heishiro 13 years ago

Even Warner Bros. cartoons were influenced by Disney but that doesn't mean that Whisper of the Heart would be directly influenced by any Disney movie.

[–] PopSixSquish 13 years ago

True; this case just seems awfully coincidental if the scene wasn't at least partially inspired by the specific things that have been mentioned.

[–] An_Animator 13 years ago

I'm closing the discussion on Disney at this point. I simply find linking this inspiring scene to something so crass as a Disney movie to be bordering on the offensive. Nice speaking with you.

Without Disney, Miyazaki wouldn't be making animated movies. Nobody would.
To call Snow White "crass" is a stupid thing to do because Snow White is THE MOST IMPORTANT animated film of all time. Without Snow White, without Walt Disney and his artists... "anime movies" would not exist.

"Anime" owes a lot to Disney as well as American animation pioneers like Max and Dave Fliesher (who Miyazaki HAS directly referenced) whether "anime" fans want to admit it or not.

-----
Local fighter for animator's rights.
"An animator is an actor with a pencil."

[–] greenbudgie 9 years ago

A little bit reminiscent of 'Pinocchio' in the antique shop. I just want to say that I like the old-fashioned interiors of Japanese anime. The antique shop in this one. And the hat shop in 'Howl's Moving Castle.' Nice 'olde worlde' stuff.