the whole redemption thing, anyone else felt appaled?

Well...I'm no religious scholar. I do consider myself a Christian. I have seen this movie, just saw it again. I think if you were Walter or Hope's parents, it would be really hard to think about forgiveness. You know a vicious crime was done against your child, they suffered terribly, they are dead and you have to live the rest of your lives with this knowledge and without them. I think the hate would be overwhelming. I personally don't believe in the death penalty. Part of it is due to my religious beliefs, I also just don't think you can say murder is wrong and then murder someone to punish them for murder. I can't say if these feelings would change if one of my children died in this fashion, since that has not (thankfully) happened.

The work that Sister Helen did with Matthew, and is done with other criminals (and others who have done lesser sins) is based on the idea that a person must really be sorry for what they have done. Not sorry that they got caught, not sorry they are being punished for the act. Saying they are sorry, saying they are repenting is not enough. It sounds real nice for a nun such as Sister Helen to come into the prison and say, "Repent and you will be forgiven and will spend eternal life with Jesus!". However, Jesus does not offer forgiveness to people who repent out of fear, not out of sincerity. You need to really intend to change your life. You need to really intend to accept Jesus. You need to really give yourself over to Him. Jesus does not have a "maXimum qualifying level". There is no one who has done something too evil to repent and be saved. However, it is not as simple as saying the words. I hope this makes sense.

To your second question, does this leave a door open for someone to do a serious crime, repent, be forgiven, then go out, become "evil" again and perpetrate more serious crimes, only to turn back to God, realize the error of their sins, repent, ask for God's forgiveness and then be a child of God and live in His kingdom in the neXt life? Yes, in theory it does, so I suppose it's possible. However, if you plan in your mind, well, I'll just do this evil deed, then repent, God will forgive me and everything will be okay, it just doesn't work like that.

I can understand why you think this sounds ridiculous. However, that's why they call it religion and why religion requires faith. I hope you find some sometime.



To each their own...opinion

I'm not a religious man (agnostic), but I despise the OPs aggressive vehemence of religion more than I despise the ideology expressed by Sister Helen.

True atheists should experience no passion towards religion because the fact is they don't know any better.

First, let me preface this by saying I'm not in the least bit religious and never will be. It just simply isn't for me.

I fully understand that when in the shoes of a parent that forgiveness is probably next to impossible, and I would never hold it against anyone that wants nothing short of a death sentence for the person that has killed a loved one. I don't for a second believe I'd be any different.

I do however believe that even the most evil of us can find true peace and acceptance with their past evils, and even spiritual enlightenment through God. I don't think God HAS to be part of the equation, but to each man/woman must find their own path towards inner peace.

I understand where the OP is coming from, and the idea that some evils are just to vile to be redeemed, and I respect that opinion. I also understand that, simply put, the OP is seemingly just against religion. Or at the very least believes that religions that offer the idea of redemption and forgiveness are bogus, because it is like a get out of jail free card. Maybe the OP believes that religions use the idea of redemption as a means to draw people in when they're at their most desperate.

The simple response to that is that one does not commit evils knowing that ultimately they can find redemption and forgiveness before they die. There would be no truth in their redemption, because the foresight to know that absolution is possible and the belief that one has infinite "second chances" pretty much means that even before they've committed whatever atrocity they're about to they've screwed themselves spiritually because there will be no "true" remorse for their actions.

I know it's a bit jumbled, but that's how I would answer someone who says bollocks to the idea of redemption. I will also say this, if there is a God, He/She will truly know what is in an individual's heart, and if there is no true remorse for their actions, then redemption and salvation will not be granted.

Having said all that, I do support the death penalty in certain cases (I'm from Canada, and can't for the life of me figure out the point of keeping Paul Bernardo alive). Redemption and salvation is not for us (Man) to give, that's God's duty. Our duty is to protect our loved ones and society as best we can, with the laws and tools that we have at hand, and our laws are written by Man, not God.

"You're going to need a bigger boat." - Chief Brody

I'm a nonbeliever, and I have many criticisms about religion. But if I really despised it, I probably wouldn't elect to watch a movie all about a nun.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, black123.

It disgusts me too that simple "repentance" is all it takes to get forgiveness, even get into heaven, after doing something so reprehensible, so loathsome, as raping and murdering innocent people. God and heaven are horseshït anyway and none of this repentance crap actually matters, but it's the religious message that it does matter that I find morally reprehensible.

What I find annoying as well are those people who try to equate the death penalty with the actual murder those killers are on death row for, as if they are the same thing. THEY'RE NOT! It seems pretty stupid to me to say it's wrong "to murder someone to say that murder is wrong". They can say they are the same when death penalty advocates prey on innocent teenagers, assault and rape and shoot them. Then they can say it's the same. Crime and punishment are not the same thing. The death penalty is a punishment, NOT murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life, which excludes the death penalty, since it is in the law.

These are not oppressed, unfairly-treated freedom fighters here. These are people who have chosen to inflict great suffering on people for no other reason than because they were there, and it would be easy to do. They committed their crimes in a land where the punishment for such crimes is death, and knew this, and did them anyway. Therefore, they have actually and willingly signed up to get themselves killed by the system. And why shouldn't they get what they signed up for?

People can't take all of a person's money through fraud, then when caught expect to be taken seriously when they cry foul against the system for putting them in jail. It's the same thing with murderers. The penalty for raping and murdering someone is death. A murderer knows it and does it anyway. He has NO RIGHT to complain when he is punished with the death penalty. He has done it to himself.

Totally agree.

No, she doesn't preach cheap forgiveness and personally, I'd much rather have the murderer of my children take responsibility and face up to his heinous acts rather than simply see him fry like a dog.

You talk like a criminal, as if people only deserve to live if they meet some standard you established.

What does that teach children? That killing people is wrong so we ourselves must turn into killers?

I didn't feel appalled. I felt it was incomplete, perhaps, and 'too little, too late'.

At the point in the process where Poncelet was when he "found Jesus" or redemption or whatever, I feel that the nun was helping Poncelet take responsibility for his own actions, instead of blaming the government, or the victim's family, or whatever. She helped him find some dignity, an honest moment for himself.

Poncelet still had to answer to human justice - the film didn't suggest otherwise. From a religious point of view, I thought the movie showed this very well when the nun and the priest were debating, and the priest retorts with the passage from Romans (and she responds by fainting).

The first 3-4 times I saw the film, I thought it was anti-capital punishment. That's just because I knew the nun in the actual cases on which the movie was based was anti-DP, Susan Sarandon and that Spicoli guy are anti-DP, and Tim Robbins is anti-DP. The more I watched the movie - really watched it, I realized the movie actually did a good job of splitting the debate evenly from many angles.