MovieChat Forums > Crimson Tide (1995) Discussion > Could Something Like This Really Happen?

Could Something Like This Really Happen?


Awesome movie!

When the captain was interviewing the new XO and he said "it was a short list" was that kinda sorta a subtle insult?

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Awesome movie!
I agree that it's an awesome movie (exciting, thought compelling, and well executed).

Could Something Like This Really Happen?
The short answer is NO.

There are many reasons why the plot of this film only works in a movie and not in real life. And it has mostly to do with the many embellishments the script takes with Nuclear Missile Submarine standard operating procedures. The list of inaccuracies that were built into the script is probably too long to cover, so I'll just go over four key plot points that are completely unrealistic.

1) In order to create the tension and conflict necessary between the CO and the XO (eventually leading to the mutiny), the plot establishes early on that the CO "lost" his XO due to illness (very convenient) right before they are due to set sail. Consequently, he must replace his former XO with a new one that he doesn't know.

Problem: This would never actually happen in real life. The CO always chooses his own XO (from a long list of dozens and dozens of potential candidates). For obvious reasons, this puts the CO in a position to pick someone he knows and most importantly someone he trusts. If no such candidate is currently available (highly unlikely), then the boat doesn't go off into battle! The idea that a CO of a nuclear missile boat is going to hire a guy he's never met before, and doesn't know anything about (apart from his service record) to be his EXO, the day before setting sail amidst a nuclear crisis is ABSURD! But it's necessary in order for the plot to advance.

*CGSailor and my dad (both navy) seem to be giving me a slightly different account here, so I can't back this up. The one thing we all seem to agree on is that the likelihood of a CO choosing an EX that he hardly knows and doesn't trust is very low.

2) The major dilemma of the film is the crew's inability to confirm their nuclear launch order due to "the radio" sustaining damage in a submarine battle. Additionally and simultaneously the VLF radio bouy cable is severed in the attack (very convenient) compounding the problem further. A crewman must therefore repair "the radio", and the ship must rise to periscope depth in order for the crew to know whether their launch order is authentic, or if it's been recalled.

Problem: Military warfighting aircraft and naval vessels typically operate on the principle of redundancy. There is more than one goddamn radio on a submarine! And they are going to have multiple radios of different frequency bands as well (UHF SATCOM, VHF line of sight, long range HF, low frequency bandwidth VLF and ELF radios). If VHF #1 radio is broken, go to VHF #2. If all VHF radios are down, use one of the UHF radios. If you're submerged too deep for LOS communication, use the VLF radio. If the VLF radio boey is severed use the ELF, and so on and so forth. Watching the ONE qualified radioman struggling to fix the ONE broken radio on the boat in order to prevent World War 3 was so fücking ridiculous that it was funny to me. My specialty in the military is communications and navigation by the way. 

3) An intense and dramatic moment occurs in the midst of the mutiny when the CO threatens to shoot WEPS unless he opens the missile key safe. He then realizes the futility of this act and instead threatens the life of a another sailor because WEPS is the only one who knows the combination! [insert face palm here]

Problem: In real life the way it works is that there are TWO launch keys (one for the CO, one for the XO). These keys are kept in two different safes, with two different combination locks, and NOBODY on board knows the combination to either safe. The combination is revealed only via emergency action message, along with the launch order and authentication code. So the idea that Weps alone would be the one crew member to know the combination is just silly, and factually incorrect. But again, it's a movie and it works better that way for dramatic purposes.

4) The mutiny itself! Conflict arises because the CO insists on proceeding with a nuclear launch order (we'll get to that more later), despite the fact that the XO fails to concur with his launch order. That right there should be game over!

Nothing like that has ever happened before in real life, but IF we were to assume it could, what happens next is obvious. The ship returns to port and the NCIS likely conducts an investigation (assuming anyone survives the nuclear holocaust that is). Not only is it unlikely that a seasoned naval skipper would violate standard operating procedures governing the release of nuclear weapons during time of war, but for his entire staff to go along with that violation (save two officers and a chief) strains credibility to say the least. US naval officers (particularly sub mariners) are some of the most highly educated, highly trained, highly vetted, most disciplined, and most professional men in the country. For that many to simply disregard nuclear protocol and insist on proceeding with a plan that could initiate a nuclear war merely because they respect their captain (even though he's clearly lost his mind as evidenced by the fact that he threatened to shoot Weps in the head) is once again utterly absurd! That is NOT going to happen because that is not how the navy does business. They don't hire brainless, spineless dipshïts to be in charge of nuclear weapons, period!

And now pivoting back to the nuclear launch order. At some point in the film, the crew receives a properly formatted and authenticated EAM transmission ordering them to launch their missiles. This means that we are at DEFCON 1, and the President has ordered a nuclear strike on Russia. Then near the climax of the film we learn that the bad guy conveniently surrenders (right after cracking the nuclear codes) for completely unrelated reasons, and the President just changes his mind and recalls the launch order. REALLY? 

Just think about the ridiculousness of that scenario for a moment. For one thing the release of nuclear weapons is always a LAST resort. That is something that can happen only after every other option has been exhausted. If rebels have taken over a nuclear missile facility in Russia, we would be coordinating with the official Russian representatives (assuming any were still in power) before launching a conventional attack on that facility to retake it before it could be utilized by any rogue agents. We don't need to use nuclear weapons to neutralize ONE nuclear launch site in Russia. Depending on the size and scope of the rebel force, there would be an air war (which we would easily win), before a ground assault (which combined with legitimate Russian army would be overwhelming), and a decisive victory.

There are many other factual errors and inconsistencies in the plot that lead to an entertaining, but completely unrealistic story. But those are the main four that jump out at me.

When the captain was interviewing the new XO and he said "it was a short list" was that kinda sorta a subtle insult?
It was kind of intended as a snarky joke. The Captain was reading off Hunter's file and pseudo complimented him when he said his name was at the "top" of the selection list of XO candidates. After Hunter says "thank you", the Captain then goes on the say "it was a short list", indicating that Hunter being the best available at the time isn't really saying all that much. Basically, he was just being a dick for no reason. But as I previously indicated, that whole scenario is completely unrealistic.

Edited for accuracy per CGSailor input

This artist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMPvcgejKpw

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First off, You are absolutely correct in that the situation would never happen and the film takes a lot of liberties and falsehoods regardling Naval procedures.

That being said, your post is as filled with innacuracies as the movie is. lol.

For starters... it is just XO. Not EXO as you repeatedly made a point of.
You stated your background was in Military communications, yet no one who was ever in the Navy would ever refer to the XO as the EXO, So I would like to ask for you to expand upon your Military communications background if you will. R/T guy in the Army? what? You were not a Navy RM (Radioman) for sure.

1) CO hiring and hand picking the XO.
Nope. Not the way you claim it. The CO does have some say in it and can reject an XO that he cannot work with or Trust. But he does not hand pick the XO or hire the XO, nor is the ship going to Not sail if the CO does not pick one. The ship WILL sail, and with an XO. The CO will just have to put up with who he has until transfers can be made.

2) Broken Radio.
Yes we do have multiple redundant radios You are correct on that score. But unlike a surface warship, a Submarine has a limited number of antenna housings. Also while we swap between different redundant radios of the same type, you cannot simply swith between different types as you have suggested. Different radio bands are used for different reasons. What may work for VHF may not be suitable for UHF. Ranges, atmospherics, radio horizon and curvature of the Earth. Satcomms.

Nor can ELF be used in place of the others just like they can. ELF transmissions can take several minutes to send a single character and teying to use it to send a regular radio message is impossible due to it's extremely low bandwidth.

ELF transmissions then, are generally going to be 3-letter code groups to give basic but vital info. Most often it is used only as a "bell ringer" to fet the sub's attention and the code group merely instructs them to come shallow and establish more direct comms for a following detailed message.

3) Threatening to shoot Weps or the Petty Officer for the 2 launch keys.
You have completely misinterpreted that scene. It is not the two keys he was trying to get at. He has his key and the XO has his key.
What was needing unlocking by Weps was the Tactical firing trigger.
seen here:
https://flic.kr/p/NmD14G

Your discription of the events is just... completely wrong and misinterpreted.

4) The mutiny.
I can find no fault there except to say the entire thing would never happen to begin with because even the CO would use the time between launch rediness ro attemot to confirm an order cut off. He would not follow an order cut off as it is not valid, but it could be a valid message cut off and he would use the time availble to try to confirm. Which is all the XO was wanting to do.

But more to the point, the entire basis of the plot is a plot hole because as you pointed out... A nuclear launch is an absolutely last resort. And because of that, the order is only ever going to be given if there is never going to be any changing of minds. Thus there is no rescinding a nuclear launch order. No cancelling once given. That's it. It's done. The President must be 100% sure it has to be done BEFORE giving the order because there is no take backs.

Other than that... Spot on.




I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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For starters... it is just XO. Not EXO as you repeatedly made a point of. You stated your background was in Military communications, yet no one who was ever in the Navy would ever refer to the XO as the EXO, So I would like to ask for you to expand upon your Military communications background if you will. R/T guy in the Army? what? You were not a Navy RM (Radioman) for sure.
I stand corrected. I'm Air Force, my dad was Navy. 

1) CO hiring and hand picking the XO.
Nope. Not the way you claim it. The CO does have some say in it and can reject an XO that he cannot work with or Trust. But he does not hand pick the XO or hire the XO, nor is the ship going to Not sail if the CO does not pick one. The ship WILL sail, and with an XO. The CO will just have to put up with who he has until transfers can be made.
My dad was an enlisted sub mariner (attack subs) in the 70s. He tells it differently, so I guess I have a conflicting account. But you've probably been in more recent than him. Are you a submariner by any chance?

2) Broken Radio.
Yes we do have multiple redundant radios You are correct on that score. But unlike a surface warship, a Submarine has a limited number of antenna housings. Also while we swap between different redundant radios of the same type, you cannot simply swith between different types as you have suggested. Different radio bands are used for different reasons.
I'm aware of that, and I wasn't suggesting that you could swap to a different radio band in the same circumstance. Merely that you've got multiple types AND multiple redundancies of those radio types.

What may work for VHF may not be suitable for UHF.
UHF and VHF radios are pretty comparable in most circumstances. They are both LOS radios with similar ranges, and many features (voice encryption, guard channel) is shared between them (though on different frequencies). UHF is a higher bandwidth and probably has more capabilities with respect to digital transmission, SATCOM, etc. But for the most part, they can do the same thing. Although in this particular instance (submarine submerged) they both have the same limitation.

Nor can ELF be used in place of the others just like they can. ELF transmissions can take several minutes to send a single character and teying to use it to send a regular radio message is impossible due to it's extremely low bandwidth.

ELF transmissions then, are generally going to be 3-letter code groups to give basic but vital info. Most often it is used only as a "bell ringer" to fet the sub's attention and the code group merely instructs them to come shallow and establish more direct comms for a following detailed message.
Again, I wasn't suggesting that they use the ELF in exactly the same way as a UHF radio. My point was that they had multiple options available to them other than what was depicted in the film. The success of failure of their ability to receive a message was not limited to a radioman fixing ONE radio receiver.

3) Threatening to shoot Weps or the Petty Officer for the 2 launch keys.
You have completely misinterpreted that scene. It is not the two keys he was trying to get at. He has his key and the XO has his key.
What was needing unlocking by Weps was the Tactical firing trigger.
You're right, it's been a while since I've seen the movie. As you are describing it back to me, I remember that now. However, I find it extremely difficult to believe that the weapons officer would be the only person on board to know the combination to the tactical firing trigger. I also believe there was a scene in which the captain ordered the "XO"  to give him "the missile key" (implying there was only one). Correct me if I'm wrong.

4) The mutiny.
I can find no fault there except to say the entire thing would never happen to begin with because even the CO would use the time between launch rediness ro attemot to confirm an order cut off. He would not follow an order cut off as it is not valid, but it could be a valid message cut off and he would use the time availble to try to confirm. Which is all the XO was wanting to do.
I agree. The movie attempts to explain this away (from the CO's perspective) as it being too dangerous to go shallow and reestablish communications because there was an Akula attack sub hunting them. I think that's BS personally, but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on account of the CO being "crazy" and it being a just a movie.

But more to the point, the entire basis of the plot is a plot hole because as you pointed out... A nuclear launch is an absolutely last resort. And because of that, the order is only ever going to be given if there is never going to be any changing of minds. Thus there is no rescinding a nuclear launch order. No cancelling once given. That's it. It's done. The President must be 100% sure it has to be done BEFORE giving the order because there is no take backs.
Exactly! 

Other than that... Spot on.



This artist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMPvcgejKpw

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I also believe there was a scene in which the captain ordered the "XO" to give him "the missile key" (implying there was only one). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Youre wrong.
The captain had his key. He was demanding the XO give his key. The CO needed both.
There was no implicationnthat there was only a single key, that is your misinterpretation.


I agree. The movie attempts to explain this away (from the CO's perspective) as it being too dangerous to go shallow and reestablish communications because there was an Akula attack sub hunting them. I think that's BS personally
It is BS. The CO is well aware of the sub's capabilities and is fully aware of the comm buoy. He would not have needed convincing by the XO to do so.

My dad was an enlisted sub mariner (attack subs) in the 70s. He tells it differently, so I guess I have a conflicting account. But you've probably been in more recent than him. Are you a submariner by any chance?

To paraphrase Cdr Hunter:
Yes I was in more recently than Him. No, I am not a submariner.

I was in during the 90's.
I served in the Surface fleet, Cruisers and Carriers. However that makes little difference in regards to the question.
An Officer is assigned to the vessel as XO. XO being a position grooming the Officer for command of his own. Generally replacing the CO when the CO moves on to a new command. The CO does not pick or hire him.

Now the CO can have the XO removed from his position for justifiable cause and temporarily assign another officer as "acting XO" until higher authority provides a permanent replacement. A CO may request a different XO if he is not getting along with him but he better have a damned good reason and be able to articulate it sufficiently otherwise the Admiral is not going to be pleased with either one of them (CO and XO ) because of petty personality differences.


I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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The captain had his key. He was demanding the XO give his key. The CO needed both. There was no implicationnthat there was only a single key, that is your misinterpretation
Copy. So I guess that's one thing the film got right then. Like I said, it's been a while since I've seen it so I was going off memory. But I plan on watching it again this weekend.

An Officer is assigned to the vessel as XO. XO being a position grooming the Officer for command of his own. Generally replacing the CO when the CO moves on to a new command. The CO does not pick or hire him.
Gotcha. AF works slightly differently. The Commander has very little input at all who his Deputy Commander will be. (we don't have XOs). And the Deputy does not become the Unit Commander when the Commander gets a new assignment. A new Commander is assigned to replace him. If the Deputy Commander gets promoted, he will get a new assignment as Commander of a different unit.

This artist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMPvcgejKpw

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Gotcha. AF works slightly differently. The Commander has very little input at all who his Deputy Commander will be. (we don't have XOs). And the Deputy does not become the Unit Commander when the Commander gets a new assignment. A new Commander is assigned to replace him. If the Deputy Commander gets promoted, he will get a new assignment as Commander of a different unit.


Depity Commander...
Executive Officer(XO)...

Same thing. Different title.
Both are Second in Command.
The British call him "Number One" (Like Riker on Star Trek)

And what you describe IS how it was in the Navy during both your Dad's time and mine. It changed in the late 90's to early 2000's.

A promoted XO would go to a new ship as a PCO (Prospective CO) and learn from the CO of that ship, then move on to his own command. The CO when he moves on, will be replaced by a new CO or a PCO from another ship.

Now the XO is in effect a PCO and his job is to learn the CO's job and he moves up to the CO's position when the CO leaves. a new XO then being assigned.



I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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