Wayyy too much like Aladdin. - The Thief and the Cobbler (1995) Discussion

[–] kmiv 17 years ago

More like "Aladdin" is waaayyyy too much like this.

*sigh*

Gotta love Diznee.

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[–] SirWel 17 years ago

yeah, this film was in production way before Aladdin was even a twinkle in Disney's eye.

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Tell me if I'm crazy for thinking this. It seems to me that Disney probably saw this movie as a threat to its monopoly on animated films in the US--because it was going to be the best animated film ever made--and took the acquisition by Miramax as an opportunity to kill it. The similarities in Aladdin are just too flagrant, and it often seems like Disney purposefully made Aladdin similar, released it first, then released Arabian Knight with all the butchering to make it seem like a ripoff.

You whistled wrong. Instead of women, skeletons came.

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[–] Laserwolf65 17 years ago

"Tell me if I'm crazy for thinking this. It seems to me that Disney probably saw this movie as a threat to its monopoly on animated films in the US--because it was going to be the best animated film ever made--and took the acquisition by Miramax as an opportunity to kill it. The similarities in Aladdin are just too flagrant, and it often seems like Disney purposefully made Aladdin similar, released it first, then released Arabian Knight with all the butchering to make it seem like a ripoff. "
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I think you're crazy. There are similarities to be sure, but it was never Disney's idea to make this movie in the first place. The directors were still trying to get their treasure planet idea pitched and Disney was still wary. It was Howard Ashman (lyricist for most of the songs) who proposed the making of Aladdin. The project had incredibly troubled production. They had to rehall the story several times. First Aladdin had a mother, but they had to get rid of that. Then they had to change the unlimited wishes angle to make it just three wishes. The final project only looks similar because they both have similar locales... the stories are completely different.

Disney didn't even have that much faith in the project to begin with. If you look at the special features on the DVD, the directors tell of the execs telling them "don't be dissapointed when it doesn't gross as much as Beauty and the Beast." Plus, Disney didn't release or have anything to do with the cuts in Arabian Knight in the first place. Does this sound like the behavior of rich executives trying to destroy an "animated masterpiece"? It sure doesn't to me.

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[–] rough_draft 17 years ago

The stories are different. Alot of the animation, though, seem identical frame by frame. So do alot of the gags, and the character designs and personalities. All of the credit should go to Richard Williams, and everyone who worked with him from the start. It makes me mad to remember how much of a hit Aladdin was, and to see the potential to this uncomplete cartoon left in the dust. I'm pretty sure if Williams was able to release his stuff with no question from his publishers, cartoons today would be chalked-up with more talent and class.

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[–] Laserwolf65 17 years ago

are we talking about the same movie here? animation the same frame by frame? Not by a long shot! A lot of the gags? Most of the humor in Aladdin comes from the script, not dumb sight gags like in thief. Character designs? Ok, so the genie is blue and zig zag is blue, the sultans wear hats, and the princesses have bare midriffs... not exactly identical to me; besides, that could just be due to them having similar locales. Personalities the same? Lets see, the sultan in thief falls asleep all the time and is impersonal; the sultan in Aladdin is thoughtful (if absent minded). Zig zag speaks in rhyme and is a buffoon, Jafar is cunning and intelligent... I could go on.

Even if all of this doesn't prove that the similarities are coincidences to do similar locales, it doesn't really matter since the stories are so incredibly different. Besides, IMO Aladdin is so superior in every way (with the exception of animation) to thief that even if it was plagiarized, I couldn't care less.

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[–] emasterslake 17 years ago

Aladin is an excellent movie. And I think this one deserves to be highly apreciated for an animated film.

I sorta thought of Aladin when I first saw this movie on TV. But I knew it was an entirely different "Arabian Nights" theme movie.

I mean how many movies can you think that tell a story about both a partly silent cobbler & a silent theif(while he's open minded in the Miramax version).

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[–] rough_draft 17 years ago

Yo LaserWolf, whatever helps you sleep at night.
IMO, Aladdin is nothing more than a animated rip-off with a higher budget.

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[–] Laserwolf65 17 years ago

Tell me exactly how Aladdin is a rip off. We already discussed how the stories are completely different, and how the characterization is different. Aladdin doesn't hold a candle to thief in animation. I already conceded that, however, you have not given one definitive example to back up your opinion. To refresh your memory, given the facts that the whole idea was Howard Ashman's--the lyricist--who was not a Disney exec; that Disney was in no way involved in the cuts in the thief and the cobbler; that while there are certain aesthetic similarities between characters due primarily to locale, their personalities are so dissimilar to each that it makes it a negligibility; and that the company had little faith in the project from beginning to end, what concrete evidence can you bring to me that shows that Disney was trying to steal material from William's movie in order to make a quick buck? In all honesty, you have less evidence than the "Lion King ripped of Kimba" crowd, yet you yell just as loudly.

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[–] SirWel 17 years ago

Um, Disney animators have gone on record to say that they were inspired by the thief and the cobbler while conceptualizing Aladdin (once Disney acquired the rights). That and the horrible IMAX version released after had several references to Aladdin; ex "Who needs a Genie when you have a tack." So really, there is more to the similarities than just coincidence.

And IMO the Thief and the Cobbler:Recobbled was better than Aladdin anyway.

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[–] YumYum-3 17 years ago

There's more similarity than locale. Or haven't you seen The Thief & the Cobbler? I don't think it's a negligibility that a main character, Jafar, is ZigZag's lost twin. The major difference between the Jafar character and his prototype is that Jafar has a cute little Disney parrot and Williams' ZigZag has a vulture. My, what a coincidence! Well, obviously ALL evil grand viziers have birds for familiars--in what other film? Eric Goldberg left Williams' when the tv special Ziggy's Gift, which he was working on but couldn't get Williams to name him as Director, went over budget and went to Disney. Eric had trained with Williams in London and been given a job in Hollywood with Williams and his hands are all over ZigZag...I mean, er, Jafar...Of course, that wouldn't have anything to do with the rip-off, I mean, er, similarities, would it. And it wasn't as if Richard Williams hadn't been showing clips of his life's work to his so-called friends at Disney's for years. What a dope not to realize they would rip him off. I guess they showed him!

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[–] TygerBug 17 years ago

Aladdin actually has some very specific references to The Thief and the Cobbler, such as when Abu/The Thief steals the Buddha Ruby in either film, when Jafar/Zigzag says "Faster! Faster!" in the exact same voice, or when Aladdin/Jasmine/The Thief go pole vaulting, fall off awnings, etc ... And of course Jafar/Zigzag hypnotizing The Sultan/King Nod, trying to control Agrabah/The Golden Land and marry Jasmine/Yumyum/Meemee.

It's all very specific. It could be considered homage except that it became more ripoff since Dick never got to finish his. Because of Disney's film.

I should compile a short video of the most obvious Thief references in Aladdin actually.

And yes, a lot of animators worked on both films. Eric Goldberg being the most obvious example.

Disney had seen the Thief, of course, the early version of it anyway, the unfinished version which I've now seen on 35mm. It's why he got the job doing Roger Rabbit, in the mid-1980s. Long before Aladdin. Disney had known of The Thief for a long time before they decided to make their own Arabian Nights tale.

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[–] female_miya 17 years ago

I should compile a short video of the most obvious Thief references in Aladdin actually.

Ooh, yeah you should totally do that!

You can take the hovercraft...if you can find it.-Nani, from Lilo and Stitch 2

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[–] wv_rivers 15 years ago

The reason for the similarities is that The Thief and the Cobbler was in production since 1964 and many of the animators that worked on it over the years went on to become Disney animators so they "borrowed" ideas from Cobbler; that and the source material for both stories are very similar.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] BenjaminDempster 17 years ago

"yeah, this film was in production way before Aladdin was even a twinkle in Disney's eye"

Um If It was in production before disney Made Aladdin ? How Wold Disney Of Seen it to copy it if Alladin came out in '92 ?

Ill Eat Your Heart ! - Nicky - Little Nicky

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[–] pmccart 17 years ago

Aladdin was in production from 1989 to 1992, released in 1992. The Thief and the Cobbler was in production as the Nasrudin adaptation from 1966-1972, as a side project as The Thief and the Cobbler from 1972 to the mid-1980s. The full production (full-time work) was from 1988 to 1992. The finishing work (after taken from Richard Williams) was probably done entirely in early 1993, with the "The Princess and the Cobbler" version being released in 1994. The Miramax version came out in 1995.

However, all of the characters were conceived before 1989 and before Aladdin went into pre-production. The screenplay from 1982 has nearly everything seen in the uncut version.

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[–] BenjaminDempster 17 years ago

but im saying HOW would disney of seen this movie to copy it if it wasnt finished ??

Ill Eat Your Heart ! - Nicky - Little Nicky

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[–] Chwelve 17 years ago

Many of the Disney animators who worked on Aladdin had come from working with Richard Williams on Thief (since it had been in production since '68, a LOT of top animators had had a hand in it at some point), which Williams had planned shot-for-shot years before Aladdin went into pre-production. It may be a little far-fetched to surmise that Disney specifically set out to wreak havoc on Thief for their own welfare (although, given the company's scruples, it's entirely possible), but it's hard to deny that at least some of Aladdin's elements cross the fine line between inspiration and blatant rip-off.

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[–] female_miya 17 years ago

"Um, Disney animators have gone on record to say that they were inspired by the thief and the cobbler while conceptualizing Aladdin (once Disney acquired the rights)."

Where did they say that?

You can take the hovercraft...if you can find it.-Nani, from Lilo and Stitch 2

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[–] Chwelve 17 years ago

Here's my post:

"Many of the Disney animators who worked on Aladdin had come from working with Richard Williams on Thief (since it had been in production since '68, a LOT of top animators had had a hand in it at some point), which Williams had planned shot-for-shot years before Aladdin went into pre-production. It may be a little far-fetched to surmise that Disney specifically set out to wreak havoc on Thief for their own welfare (although, given the company's scruples, it's entirely possible), but it's hard to deny that at least some of Aladdin's elements cross the fine line between inspiration and blatant rip-off."

I have read places where specific animators who formerly worked for Disney credited Thief and the Cobbler as their inspiration for Aladdin, but if you're expecting me to look up sources for you then sorry, too lazy. I have no idea where it was. Google it. There are some people who have gotten sketches of character animations for both films, and in some sequences the character movements are quite literally traced (I specifically remember some bits with Jafar and Zigzag and Abu the thief, respectively, but there may have been others, perhaps between princesses, as they are strikingly similar as well). Aladdin's one of Disney's better efforts in the past few decades, but, yeah, it totally steals from Thief and the Cobbler.

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[–] female_miya 17 years ago

Uh-oh...
I asked about how the Aladdin fans felt...look what the first reply was:
"Dont care ... aladdin is so much better on so many levels..... "

Well, it WAS the Aladdin forums, so I guess THAT was comin'...

You can take the hovercraft...if you can find it.-Nani, from Lilo and Stitch 2

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[–] SkittlesMilly 11 years ago

OP did say that, sorry, I know your comment was in 2007.

Believe me, nothing is trivial. - Eric Draven, The Crow.

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[–] JimmyZappa 17 years ago

Thief and the Cobbler had superb animation, that's primarily why I like it. Aladdin has great animation as well but it's not as meticulously detailed and ambitious as Thief (also, not as personal either).

I like them both for different reasons. I like Thief as a long time animation fan and admire it as an ambitious personal work, not as an entertaining movie. I like Aladdin cause its an entertaining Disney movie, not as a piece of art.

Stuff like this reminds me of "Movie Poop Shoot.com" from Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

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[–] doliff 15 years ago

I would pretty much describe this film as Disney's Aladdin on acid.

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[–] Its_Cold_In_Canada 15 years ago

Which is the way Animated films should be, unfortunately its not the Disney way. Thanks to them they have destroyed fairy tales and constrained the animated film industry for years in North America. Until Pixar anyways, at least they made original films unlike Disney who ripped stories and mangled them into their own atrocities.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] blink182chickie 15 years ago

Of course Aladdin had better animation, it was made with computers.
Thief and the Cobbler was ENTIRELY hand drawn, which already makes it more natural, and if I had Tim Rice making my soundtrack it'd be pretty freaking awesome too.

*beep* the Animation and Music, the simple fact is Disney, albeit indirectly, stole a treasure because Williams took too long.
Its the same movie, making it more obvious is the Animators that worked on Thief, the majority of them left to work for Disney, and as the person above you stated, they credited Thief as their muse.

In short. Disney doesn't have original ideas, dont stick up for them, cause they'll ruin your childhood before they stick up for you.

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[–] supraman98tt 14 years ago

Preach on sister, this and all the other people who tell you that this is a masterpiece and that Aladdin is a rip off are right. I am not gonna make an addendum of how intelligent I am, but being an animation student The Thief and the Cobbler is by far WAYYYY better than Aladdin.

And blink said it right, Richard Williams had to self fund this masterpiece from the time he became a working professional. This was his passion, besides the commercial stuff he had to make like the Brunhilde Peter Evan's commercial or the Fanta garbage back in the early 80's. He quoted it best in his "The Creative Person: Richard Williams" interview done in black/white that animators have to work the commercial stuff constantly going to keep the personal awesome stuff constantly going.

SO the rest of you pin collecting Disney touting *beep* can go to Orlando, France, California, and/or Asia (oh wait did they close that one yet?) and see your damn Jasmine and all her bs. BTW I like Aladdin too, but I like Thief better. It's like comparing Naruto Shippuuden to Princes Mononoke.

Hi5 blinkie and the rest of you folks that respect *REAL* animation. Disney has some crazy tech like Frank and Ollie (awesome in there own right) and whatnot, has bajillions of money, and computers. But when its all said and done if your a master of the CEL and you can do all the stuff in Cels and on film then you can take that and put it in your friggin computer and make it do the same thing that Richard Williams has been schooling people for 50 years.

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[–] AgentSniff 13 years ago

Well Aladdin has as much in common with The Theif and The Cobbler as 30 Days of Night has with Frostbitten.

But one can argue that Disney could have stole elements from The Theif and The Cobbler, but Roy Disney made up to that by starting to make The Theif and The Cobbler the way Williams wanted it, but the project has been down for some years.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] sknywhtboy88 13 years ago

Idunno, to be fair, yes, Aladdin may have been inspired by this movie, but it never claimed to be an original story in the first place. And really, the plot is very different, it pretty much just comes to similarities in Tak/Aladdin, Yum Yum/Jasmine and Zig Zag/Jafar. Aside from that it is quite thematically different. It is really just a shame that they #1 released the version that they did since that's a frikken pile, and #2, even if they did release the movie in Williams' original vision, it came hot on the heals of Aladdin, which was a huge success, and even to a child this looked like a ripoff.

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[–] Rocketeer_Raccoon 9 years ago

Aladdin copied from the Thief and the Cobbler, not the other way round. The Thief and the Cobbler was in film production long before Disney's Aladdin, do your research before you post.

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[–] IndianaMcClane 9 years ago

First off, as everyone else said this was in production for decades before Aladdin was released, so if there's a problem that's the film that should be called out for any "mirroring". That being said, a lot of the character archetypes used in either film were not created by Thief. All one needs to do is look back at the 1940 Thief of Baghdad or even One Hundred and One Nights for that matter. It may be be an artistic triumph, but it's hardly anything new in terms of story.

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[–] avi-greene2 7 years ago

I disagree. I think this is way better than Aladdin!

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