Reverse sexism?


So - on other sites, many people have accused this film of reverse sexism. I'm wondering:

a) what anyone out there thinks about that, and
b) what characters can you use to support your point of view

Thanks - I'm undecided on this one myself and would like to engage anyone in a discussion.

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Some men (and women) don't even notice how much important- and not-so-important -media(among many other areas in society) is/are very male focused and targeted and dominated, it's just normal to them for men to take precedence. So for men like this, a 'real'(non-'fluff', non-'sexy') film with female primary characters told from a female point of view is automatically unpalatable and not suitable for popular consumption evidently. Just look how little activity you find on this board. Often, (in non-"chick-flick"-that term in itself says plenty) films women fulfill the auxiliary roles of objects/accessories/supportive wife/gf/fiance/mother etc. of the male hero/es. In this film the women are in the foreground and portrayed as self-sufficient, multi-dimensional, possessing & perpetuating their own brands of wisdom. To women's credit, in a film like this the men are not all just objects or one-dimensional straw-men but diverse, distinct individuals. There are good/bad/stupid/intelligent/cold/warm/kind/cruel aspects of both male and female characters. If you have a problem with the rapist being male then you have a problem with reality as most rapists are male, so reality is where you should focus your efforts in instigating change.

There are many male point-of-view pieces of art that I can appreciate and even relate to, it would be nice if men respected women enough to accomplish the equivalent feat inversely once in a while.

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Thanks for your thoughts. I agree that the female characters in the movie are often the leaders of the community, or at least are fully independant of the men in the film (at least most of them), and that this in itself surprises and in some cases probably offends the viewer's expectations.

Would you care to get more specific, though, as to which male characters (or female) are portrayed in a balanced way and how?

Thank you.

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I don't think that I can eloquently answer your question but like the poster below me, people see it as "reverse sexism" because it is so rare to have a movie dominated by strong female characters. Yes, there are various tones of feminismisn but the male character of "Boer Bas" (Antonia's boyfriend) didn't seem to me to be a wimp of a man, but rather a very caring individual. That does not limit his "masculinity" but rather reinforce it.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=12818497

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It's not "reverse sexism" but sexism. Sexism doesn't only flow one way and it doesn't simply benefit men and disadvantage women. If you don't believe that, try asking the ghosts of the more than one million men who've died in America's wars versus the 100 or so women. Hilary clinton can vote for the Iraq War because she knows she and Chelsea aren't going to die in it.
This movie is the same type of fantasy one sees in romance novels and on soap operas. The result is not a movie in which there are strong women interacting with men in the real world but, instead, a woman who claims to be strong but can only appear strong in a world of either males who are neutered or males who are weak and evil. Even the boyfriend who courts Antonia isn't so much a strong counterpart to Antonia as he is a polite, obediant little boy/lapdog who waits for years until Antonia is good and ready for him.
Think about Hepburn and Tracy in their films. Think about Scarlett and Rhett. Katherine Hepburn and Vivian Leigh didn't need to remove Spencer Tracy or Clark Gable to make themselves appear strong. They could expose their strengths and weaknesses and failures and successes and yet still be strong. They can stand right next to their powerful counterparts and retain their power. They didn't need to diminish those men. Needing to diminish your counterpart is never a sign of strength.

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uhuh ... 'reverse sexism'? seems a strange concept. And, yes, I agree with bbraat that sexism is sexism and 'reverse sexism' can then only be 'anti-sexism', but apparently that is not what was meant in the first place. Interesting, though, that this film should be 'accused' of anything. Why would you 'accuse' a piece of art of anything. It is 'there', it is a concept, it is what the artist intended. It has no obligations to the viewer, lest for 'entertaining' her/him. In whatever way you interpret 'entertainment'. Well, maybe fulfil what they paid for to view the film (if at all). Seems to me that we are experiencing something like a conservative / male chauvinist backlash to humanitarian and liberal ideas. Why would anyone expect a film like 'Atonia' to deliver a realistic and balanced view of the world whilst you find films like 'Terminator', 'Die hard', 'Blade' etc. offering blatantly 'male', violent and screwed up views of the world going without reproaches. Just seems males cannot take a view of the world where they do not play the major role and resent women from being dominant. This would also explain much of the reasoning about the strength of the male characters in some of the comments on this board. Another interesting note: coincidentally I saw Baise Moi just before Antonia. There was a lot of discussion in the bonus material on the French banning the picture and whether or not it was pornographic. There is really no comparison between the two films, for sure, but I did find it exhilerating that Antonia should be rated 'R' in the U.S. of A for 'strong sexual content, and for some violence, including a rape scene'. My-oh-my .... rape scenes we have seen galore (Boys don't cry, Freeway, Guncrazy etc.etc.) and violence I will not even mention ... and, yes, all of the named are rated 'R'. But Antonia????? Looks like someone did not want this alternative plot to our dreary world to be seen ... at least in the U.S.

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1) It seems to me that in the movie women revert to violence too. So, is women violence ok, but men's not?
2) Is criticizing this movie a sign that one is automatically a chauvinistm sexist caveman?

This movie is a dangerous movie in that it portrays am extreme view, with the point of view that this extreme is a perfect world, a world where men are reduced to being dumb, sexsist,not worth marrying, or being killed. Now, in the defense of the writer/director, this movie takes place in the past, when sexism was the norm. In that regard, it offers nothing new. It is just a whining piece, where women where victims and where now --in this fictional world-- they can take revenge. However, what is dangerous is that IMO many women will not understand that it is a movie about the past and it is not about now or the future of women and men relations. As a 45 y. o,. male, I totally accept women being equal to men AND cannot accept movies where women ostracize men, emasculate men, kill men in a general way because they are all stupid, all mean, all incompetent (except for the one intellectual, who represent the one in a million male ratio, I suppose). I cannot see the value of such a movie as much as I cannot accept movies where men are the only heros and women are accessories to the story.

This movie does not offer any solution to current problems. How would a "perfect" women's world run? Are the feminst saying that female competition does not exist? I have news for you. It does. So, in the perfect women's world, all women will not want to drive 2 SUVs and live in that perfect white picket fenced house with the richest husband there is? In that sense this movie was a waste of my time.

Furthermore, men have been attacked for decades now, especially in America, where men are feminized and made to look dum and dumber (which is just fine by the advwertising agent who are catering to women who love to shop population).

In any event, I wonder how a male version of this movie would have been accepted by the women who loved it so much?

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You complain that the movie was given an R due to violence including a rape scene. Then you say we've already seen such scenes in a list of other movies WHICH WERE ALSO GIVEN R-RATINGS. Then, after negating your own proof, you conclude that that "'someone' wanted to keep the subversive ideas of this 'brilliant opus' out of the United States". Do you realize how crazy that sounds? It sounds a bit paranoid, to put it mildly.

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Feminism. Paranoia. Really kinda two peas in a pod, isn't it? No need to be surprised by any of the delusions being spewed forth by the vag worshipper above.

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Misogyny and homophobia in one. Charming.

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Reverse sexism? Or just Sexism? In this movie? That is just ridiculous. How many hundreds of thousands of films involve a group of males bonding, or fighting together in war, or together in a workplace, or whatever with not a female in sight except for the occasional one-dimensional secretary with a ridiculously short skirt?

I wish movies like this would get made in the US, but apparently the media feels that women are only useful in this country if they are cleaning something or answering the phone. Or look like a model.

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I wish movies like this would get made in the US, but apparently the media feels that women are only useful in this country if they are cleaning something or answering the phone. Or look like a model.


It's amazing how little you know about, just about everything. There should exist medication for those with your disturbing condition. Then again, I do believe there's treatment for schizophrenia. Look into it.
If movies like were released as often as you wished, I'd be worried about the role they'd play in exacerbating the pathological self-entitlement(and even downright hatred) in young girls like yourself.

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Childish bigotry is really your thing, isn't it?

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there is no such thing as "reverse sexism". Being sexist goes both ways and can be put on either gender. Saying reverse sexism is like saying reverse racism, racism isn't particular to just one race.

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No "reverse" sexism but just plain and simple, sexism. Hardcore misandry possibly. Feminism has well and easily demonstrated, in case anyone wasn't already aware, that the male sex has NO monopoly on this sort of thing(in fact it may have demonstrated that women can be the worst perpetrators of all).

Naturally the myriad of Women's Studies scholars have already come out and predictably, assailed you with their apologism for yet another anti-male piece of (sh-t) propaganda by claiming it some brave, artistic practice in contradicting the so-called "norms" of male-dominance and female "one-dimensionality" in film. Anyone with any real sense (and an objective sense of perspective) knows that this is merely pseudo-intellectual candy-coating to publicly "justify" their (not-so)private urge to revel in self-serving, ego-boosting propaganda. Women like this(upper middle class, angry white girls) are a diamond a dozen, just like their treasured "anti-patriarchy" films that they believe are so rare and so opposite from the norm(remind me of the last male, piece-by-piece equivalent to a film like this? And remind me how it could've possibly gotten by in this post-civil rights day and age?).
(Oh and just imagine how the gay element of a "male" equivalent to this film would go down in comparison. Equally empowering? Oh wait, "male empowerment" is just another term for misogyny in this world. )

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I cannot believe that I just watched a film that was a celebration of family and it's being criticized as sexist. For what?? Because there are few men in the movie? So what?

My family is very much like the family in this movie (minus the post-war Dutch thing). My great grandmother, grandmother and mother are single women that raised strong women. Does this mean they are sexist?

Not all of the men in the movie are horrible, either. Yes, there's the pig of a man that rapes both his sister and a child. Is that sexist? No, that's reality. Antonia's companion is a sweet and caring man that she obviously loves. Just because she doesn't want to get married doesn't make her a man hater. Crooked Finger, although a bit depressing, is extremely intelligent and obviously has a huge impact on everyone's life, especially Theresa's.

There is nothing about this film that is anti-male. Nor is it unrealistic. Anyone who has a problem with this movie is obviously already holding a grudge about something entirely different.

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I'm with you there. This whole conversation is surreal to me. It reminds me of complaints that in TV sitcoms the husbands in the family are idiots and the wives are intelligent. When you look at it from a theatrical point of view- it's that the husband is the starring role- the comedic role with all the good lines. The wife is the lesser part, as the "straight man", with no good lines, and no real plot-lines. Everybody loves who? Raymond. Not his wife, whose name I can't even remember.

I found this movie to be wonderful. It's about a strong-willed woman who is in control of her own life. If you find that sexist, then so be it. I didn't find it sexist at all, particularly in the instance where the men of the town take care of the child-rapist problem. That didn't seem like wimpy men to me.

I think that some men are also missing the cultural aspects of this movie- these are Dutch people- the Dutch are known for being independent, and respectful of each other. Antonia's boyfriend wasn't being wimpy, he was respecting her independence in the same way that she would have respected his had their levels of interest been reversed.


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I'm with you too. I never would've guessed the reactions on this board!

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have you actually seen this movie, jane doe95, or have you just read reviews. where is the sexism? where is the misandry? you sound like a right wing religious bigot parroting a creed. check out "the entity" for a truly nasty piece of misogyny that managed to pass itself off as just another horror movie and please remind me of the last female, piece-by-piece equivalent to a film like that.

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It has a female target audience. Had I known it before I wouldn't have seen it. I don't think that there is anything wrong about that. Most of the time it feels like a condensed soap opera with added violence.

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Sexism is a word that only applies to the oppression of women. Society has no word for the oppression of men.



JOE ANDERSON
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