MovieChat Forums > Star Trek: Voyager (1995) Discussion > Voyager vs. Deep Space Nine

Voyager vs. Deep Space Nine


I think the issue needs to be addressed so people know where we stand on this.

In another thread I predicted that I could watch that night's DS9 episode and that it would suck, because most of DS9's episodes sucked. The episode I saw was the one where Sisko, Dax, Odo, and Garek traveled through some spatial anomaly and this somehow caused the "solid" Odo to have a changeling reaction that pulled all of them into a psychic link that reflected a time during the Cardassian occupation of DS9.

As predicted, this episode sucked, although I will admit it wasn't as bad as most DS9 episodes. First off, none of them were actually in any real danger. They were all taken to the medical bay where Bashier could monitor them, even with that psychosomatic bull crap going on. Second, it was farfetched to believe Odo's then recessive changeling ability could affect a human, a cardassian, a trill and its host. The physiologies are all different to varying degrees. Third, the episode was predictable. The clues obviously pointed to Odo being the cardassian constable. Fourth, it was basically an episode of character assassination for Odo, and it ended with most of Odo's friends or acquaintances judging him. Odo felt guilt about his recent past actions. But it raises the question of why Odo had been so strict and condescending in his job since Star Fleet took over.

Compare this episode to Voyager's that played right afterward on H&I. The Doctor had a memory problem of his own, but it was one inflicted by the captain. The Doctor's experience in choosing Harry's life over Jatel's caused an error in his programing to where he fell into a cycle of grief. There were a lot of interactions between the Doctor and the other crewmates. Some supported him, others sympathized but sided with Janeway, and then there was Janeway herself who clearly made the wrong call, but at least saw the light in the end thanks to Seven's convincing arguments. This was a much better written story, and it also carried a heavy risk. If the error wasn't corrected somehow, the Doctor would have been lost, thus leaving Voyager without a chief medical officer. That is a real danger, unlike that in DS9.

The episodes that aired on Thanksgiving show the same contrast.

In DS9, Odo escorts Quark to a hearing. They find a bomb onboard the runabout, and instead of landing the shuttle on the planet FIRST, they attempt to beam the bomb off the ship while they're still traveling through space. How dumb was that? They should have sent a distress call first, landed the ship in a proper location on the planet, then tried to discard the bomb by containing it in a force field and beaming it out. Instead we end up with Odo and Quark stuck on a freezing planet trying to haul a transmitter up a mountain to send a distress call out. Meanwhile, back on DS9, Sisko's son and Quark's nephew squabble over their living conditions. They fight about nothing, separate, and then make up just as quickly. Odo and Quark's "story" follows a similar path, though in their case it's more of a stretch because when they first crash-landed they each had one pack of rations. Yet at the end they allegedly went for three to nine days. Yes, you can survive that long on a pack each, but not if you're hiking and climbing through mountains. You burn too much energy like that. Then they are beamed out at the brink of death and they're suddenly friendly with each other.

Compare that to Voyager's episode in which Tom, Tuvok, and the Doctor get pulled into a gravity well that forces them to crash-land on a desert planet where time passes more quickly than in normal space. Thus they came to believe that Voyager may have left them behind. They had to survive with the help of a new character, Nos, for months. Meanwhile, Voyager is placed on a deadline in trying to figure out how to save them. If they don't find a way, the aliens will close the wormhole. The way in which this was presented was masterful. First, Chakotay informs Janeway that time passes for the others more quickly, so every second to her is like an hour to them. Then he gives her the bad news. The wormhole is collapsing, and when it does it will crush the entire solar system within it. Boom! There's your real crisis moment.

Also, Tom argues with Tuvok about emotions and love regarding Nos, and Tuvok opens up a little. All characters involved show some development and their bonds are strengthened.

That is an entertaining story with grave consequences. While Odo and Quark whine about who's turn it is to carry the transmitter, or who gets to wear the trousers. LOL!

So now you know where a Voyager fan is coming from on this. Voyager's episodes are just better written and carry greater significance. DS9's episodes are a joke by comparison. They are either corny, farfetched, play out like a morning soap opera, or dip into the realm of being a sitcom.

I would like to read what DS9 fans think of this, and if they can give any examples of a good DS9 episode, and if so, then what made it good?

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Agreed i much prefer Voyager

Jeri Ryan as Seven is maybe the best character in the Star Trek franchise

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No one would say Voyager was better than DS9. There isn't any point arguing it.

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Voyager was better than DS9. You can't argue against this fact, which is why you aren't trying.

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DS9 was the worst series in Star Trek history. I would say Star Trek: Enterprise was even better than DS9. Voyager was far better than both, though.

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Right. I refuse to even watch Enterprise, so I don't know how it compares to DS9, but out of the ones I consider canon, DS9 is the worst. Thanks for the post.

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Right. I refuse to even watch Enterprise, so I don't know how it compares to DS9

you should try at some point if you need some trek to watch and can't stomach another rerun of TNG.
i found early episodes of Ent to be quite tedious and frustrating, but once they got some meaty storylines to follow, things really picked up.


"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

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dei_grepher 1051; ENT is a good ST show! It's just that the writers gave in 2 whiners and tried catching-up too soon 2 TOS's time period. In my opinion.

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DSNFan; I'd say VOY is better than DS9. DS9 is 4 the more cerebral trekkies. Or maybe the novels. VOY is 4 trekkies more inclined towards GEN movies.

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7 Of 9 is ST Franchise Cheesecake.

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While Voyager meandered along, making the same alien-of-the-week stories solved by miracle technology that is forgotten by the next episode, DS9 got consistently better across it's run, and the stakes got raised and it's characters got fleshed out and explored properly. Sure it has a lot of tv soap moments, and that's why i called it Deep Soap Nine, but it built itself to a crescendo by the finale, rather than Voyager's whimpering end.

While Voyager is sometimes OK, it never achieved the quality or the fan base of TNG or TOS.

If you want a list of the better DS9 episodes, just drop into the DS9 forum.

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

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Thanks for the reply.

I admit that Voyager did sometimes introduce new technology that was forgotten in the following episode, but they did sometimes keep certain technologies on. Off the top of my head, the mobile emitter, astrometrics, the Delta Flyer, and the anti-8472 nanoprobes. The only two pieces of technology I remember being dropped were the cloak technology from the dinosaur race, and the coaxial drive the body jumper was using. However, both of those episodes may have been dismissed from the canon, as was the case with the infamous "Threshold" episode.

Voyager should have gotten stronger and more technologically advanced than it did. That's a valid point. But I think this only makes Voyager not as good as it could have been. It doesn't actually make it bad.

Also, I disagree that it was alien-of-the-week. There were quite a few episodes in which Voyager encountered no other species, or interacted with a species in a non-threatening way. And even when they did encounter aliens, they were pretty diverse and interesting.

When you write that DS9 got consistently better across its run, do you mean the space station or the show? I honestly don't know if the station saw many upgrades, but the show itself had been consistently bad, in my estimation.

The stakes got raised, but from what? From shady shenanigans in Quark's? So basically, DS9 had no significant risks, and then it raised it's level up to what normally happens in a Star Trek episode? That wouldn't be anything to brag about.

How did the characters get fleshed out an explored properly? In a recent episode, Odo basically got character assassinated. Apparently he has lost his ability to shape-shift, and he was revealed to be complacent while impersonating a cardassian on the station during the occupation. He is shown to have allowed the execution of three innocent bajorans. And where is he as a character after all this is revealed to Siskko, Dax, Garak, and Kira? I mean, Kira seemed kind of devastated by the revelation, and implied that she couldn't handle any more bad stuff than that. This should have humbled Odo, but in the next episode he's back to being the same condescending self-righteous douche. He's even openly hostile against Quark, supposedly for all the crap he pulled during the occupation, yet Odo was there and did nothing about it. At least Quark gave the bajorans jobs.

Let's also remember that the DS9 characters were not interesting. O'Brien and Worf were imports from TNG, and I think it was done to bring TNG fans over to the show. Dax is a trill, which are just weird, creepy, and emo. Quark is okay, but he's usually weighted down by his brother who is just dumb, goofy, and annoying. Odo's a douche. Kira's naïve. Sisko is basically the black version of Kirk, only without the coolness. His. acting. is... terrible. His. delivery. is. clunky. and me-lo-dra... matic. Bashier is ordinary and mostly annoying. Um... is there anyone else? Garak is okay, but he seems like a side character who only pops up at certain times, like Naomi Wildman. So unless I'm forgetting someone important, the DS9 cast is rather small.

DS9's "crescendo" may have just been it going from garbage to average. Voyager was good, then very good, then good, and then at the end it started to get bad, but it ended shortly after. And I think the reason for it getting bad was so fans wouldn't complain about it ending. So I think the writers intentionally lowered the quality so that people would accept its necessary end.

But it is undeniable that Voyager's ending sucked. They just arrive back at Earth and the credits roll. There was no fanfare or celebration. The crew seemed shocked that they were actually back. It was more surreal than exciting. And we didn't get to see where the crew members ended up. We didn't get to see Janeway face her mandatory court-martial and see the crew stick up for her. We didn't get to see what happens with Seven or the Doctor. We didn't get to see the Marquis members officially accepted into society, or see their reaction to their fight being over and their side losing. We didn't get to see Tom reunite with his father or introduce him to B'Elanna and their daughter.

However, Voyager's sucky ending doesn't take away from the fact that most of the episodes were really good.

As for the fanbase, we aren't comparing Voyager to TOS or TNG. I have admitted elsewhere that TNG edges Voyager out in terms of overall quality. But Voyager's episodes are on par with TNG.

I think the fact that you DS9 fans have a list of "better" episodes shows that even you realize most of the episodes sucked. I don't have a list of "better" episodes for Voyager. I just claim that they were all good except for a few specific episodes. Same case with TNG, they were all good except for a few off the wall episodes.

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 What "mandatory" court-martial would Janeway be facing? A future self helped the crew get back to Earth years ahead of schedule! She would have to admit an Admiral in the future gave them the tech and knowledge to get back home sooner! Being a "Doctor Who" fan, time shifts, paradoxes, & alternate futures are my specialty! 

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Any Starship captain who loses the ship, especially to an enemy force, faces a mandatory court-martial. Janeway lost control of the ship to the Kazon as well as the Hirogen (and possibly some other times).

Picard confirms the court-martial fact in the episode where Data was given a hearing to determine if he was property of the Federation or not (The Measure of a Man). The woman who arbitrated the hearing, Phillipa Louvois, is the same one who relentlessly prosecuted Picard for abandoning the Stargazer.

So Janeway would have been court-martialed for losing the ship at least, and then add to that all of her infractions and violations of Starfleet regulations.

I think it would have been interesting to see this play out, and for the crew to stand up for her. Tuvok would represent her, obviously.

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I must have missed all that! After Paris got back home safely, I think his dad would go to bat for the captain and the entire crew to excuse any and everything! All the captains of the Federation have bent, if not broken the rules!  

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Voyager is my favourite but DS9 is by far the best Trek show there is.

Darker, more complex, ongoing narratives (as opposed to the episodic formula) and more character driven.

It is the only truly adult Star Trek show.

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The only thing "adult" about it was the lesbianism, and that was a gimmick to be "edgy" or "open-minded" at the time. Also to lure in male viewers.

Thanks for the post, but I don't see what was so dark or complex about it. Yes, it was character-driven, but only because that's all DS9 had to work with. It was mainly nothing but character interaction and little else.

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The only thing "adult" about it was the lesbianism, and that was a gimmick to be "edgy" or "open-minded" at the time. Also to lure in male viewers.

Thanks for the post, but I don't see what was so dark or complex about it. Yes, it was character-driven, but only because that's all DS9 had to work with. It was mainly nothing but character interaction and little else


Please. DS9 really explored the themes of war and terrorism on several episodes, that was the dark and complex side of DS9. For example episodes like Duet, The Siege of AR-558 and In the Pale Moonlight. They were pretty heavy stuff.

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Look, I saw parts of "For the Uniform" last night, and it seemed to me like it was a normal Star Trek episode. Meaning, it was a proper episode among a sea of cheesy episodes. I missed some parts because it didn't hold my interest and I flipped to other channels during commercials, but still, it seemed like it was written to be a normal Star Trek episode. I think that is why episodes like that one appeal to you. Compared to (mostly bad) episodes within its own series, it's phenomenal, but compared to other episodes from TNG or VOY, it's mediocre.

TNG and VOY had themes of war and such, and it had risk and danger on almost a daily basis. Action and danger were the norm. DS9 was occasional grit and mostly soap.

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So Voyager used Seven to repulse the male viewers?

DS9's complexity was more about the character driven, serialised narratives and peeling away the Utopian veneer of Trek than anything to do with briefly visited mirror universe lesbianism.

A side character like Garak alone had more interesting things going on in his fleeting appearances than the whole seven seasons of Harry Kim.

I still love Voyager the most but it's essentially episodic, monster of the week stories by comparison.

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Seven wasn't a gimmick. She may have been used to draw in male viewers, but her looks were secondary to what she was, which was borg. She had a unique storyline put behind her, which Mulgrew has admitted herself after having mistakenly believed that Seven was brought on to be a sex symbol. Seven was also never used for promoting or displaying lesbianism. The closest she ever came to that was biting B'Elanna on the face while under the influence of a male Klingon persona, which isn't something our society sees as sexual. Seven's sex appeal was used in a regular way. She was a complex and well-written female character who was nice to look at. Dax's sexuality was sensationalized as a means of appealing to a base carnality.

DS9's alleged complexity is a separate issue from its aforementioned "adult" aspect. My reference to Dax's homoerotism was in rebuttal to the claim that DS9 was "adult".

As for complexity, is DS9's story complex? First I assume you're excluding all the irrelevant side stories and interpersonal drama, and referring mainly to the war with the Dominion and the tensions with the Klingon Empire. Well, how is this any different from TNG, in which the Federation was at war with the Romulan Empire and had a precarious alliance with the Klingons?

Character-driven? Serialized narratives? None of the characters are interesting, and the plot certainly wasn't serialized. The plot about war with the Dominion or the skirmishes with the Marquis are broken apart, and between each of these installments are several "filler" episodes that are completely irrelevant to the arc.

Peeling away the utopian veneer of Trek? I'm pretty sure it isn't a veneer. Federation civilization is in fact quite utopian. Just because conflict exists with other civilizations doesn't mean it isn't utopian.

While Garak did in fact seem like the most interesting character on DS9, he certainly doesn't beat Harry Kim, who has time traveled, died, been genetically altered and restored, sent a message back in time to prevent Voyager's destruction, and has even come so far as to go behind the captain's back, and that's just up to season 5. Later on he will also act as captain to an alien transport ship. Harry Kim is the most interesting "regular" person on the ship, and he beats most of DS9's main characters.

Also, Garak isn't a side character. He is part of the main cast picture for the series. But he does seem like a side character what with how much he is overlooked in the story. I would actually compare his involvement to Naomi Wildman's.

Voyager was more of a serial than DS9, in that every episode was tied to their mission of getting home. Yes there were diversions and side stories along with it, but that hardly falls under the category of "monster of the week". MotW refers to shows like Power Rangers, or Sailor Moon, where the main characters fight a new monster each episode.

In the most recent episode, there was no enemy to fight. It was about Harry Kim getting involved with an alien woman without following Starfleet protocol about intimate relationships among newly discovered species. Along with that personal storyline the Voyager crew was trying to find a way to restore warp capability to an entire spacefaring civilization that was going through its own internal struggle of what kind of destiny they would set for themselves. This led to a disaster onboard their ship that could have destroyed them and Voyager had it not been for Harry's quick thinking. No monster to fight, but still plenty of character development, danger, and interesting storyline.

And that's what this comes down to. Interesting/entertaining storyline. Which series has more of that? Voyager is consistently good, with a few cheesy episodes now and then. DS9 is constantly bad, and only has a few regular episodes.

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A side character like Garak alone had more interesting things going on in his fleeting appearances than the whole seven seasons of Harry Kim.


So very true! The only HK episode I can recall right now is the one where he thought he was an alien and was going to marry into a race of women that drain dudes dry! Haha! Garek had so many episodes that explored him as a character and fleshed him out. He's my favorite ST character - so complex and interesting.

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I'm a huge ST fan. I enjoyed all the series: TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. My sister surprised me a few Christmases ago w/one Star Trek series. She knew exactly which one to get me: Deep Space Nine! For me, it is the best Star Trek series. The characters were so richly developed and the stories were so good!!

I enjoyed Voyager, but never did like how easily the Maquis fell into line w/Starfleet. I thought the idea of mixing the two crews would be interesting, but it wasn't played upon at all. I don't have anything negative to say about Voyager, but I'm very happy to own DS9. That episode the OP mentioned w/Garek, Dax, Sisko, and Odo is awesome! I can't understand how anyone could NOT like it. Oh well. Miles vary as they say.

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Voyager vs. Deep Space Nine


I don't think there's any contest here, although it would depend on whether the confrontation occurs before or after DS9's defenses were refit prior to the Dominion War. DS9's defenses were quite formidable against entire fleets, so I think they'd have no problem with Voyager - even if they didn't get to use the Defiant. Even if it was just Voyager vs. Defiant, I'd put my money on the Defiant.

Voyager might stand a chance with Eddington's help; there'd have to be some internal sabotage. Maybe Neelix can make a deal with Quark and cause some mischief on the station.

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Hardy har har. It's a question of which is the better series. But regarding a battle, it would also depend on what point in time we're talking about with Voyager. I would compare Voyager's launch to DS9's Star Fleet upgrades, and then DS9's current state to Voyager during Endgame.

Also, the Defiant sucks compared to the Delta Flyer.

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Temporal Investigations would show up and arrest Janeway for time crimes.

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Yeah? Captain Braxton tried to execute her. Didn't work out too well.

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I love both series but give the nod to Voyager as the one I like better. The premise of being lost in the Delta quadrant and the ability to create all sorts of new / original material is what made it better. Don't get me wrong because I'm a huge DS9 fan, I think they had more weaker episodes but I also liked the fact that it was on a station and not a starship although the Defiant was extremely cool. The war with the Dominion was my favorite part. As with any Star Trek series the first season is always kind of weird in comparison to the latter seasons as they were trying to find their niche but I like how every series has got better the further seasons they went. Captive pursuit was my favorite first season episode. Call me crazy but if I want to watch 100 episodes of any Star Trek series it would go something like 50 to Voyager, 30 to DS9 and the remaining 20 would be a bit of TNG and TOS. Enterprise was God awful and I'm not even interested in watching it again. Who knows though, maybe down the road I'll give it another chance and it might grow on me.

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dei_grepher 1051; I appreciate, dearly, someone defending VOY! It doesn't happen nearly enough. Esp. against DS9 which seems 2 be the sacred cow in the Trekkie galaxy. But I disagree w/ u on 1 issue. 7 Of 9, Geri Ryan, was there in a skin-tight-suit that accentuated every curve (you'd think she was Black from the shoulders dn) and added a few curves, w/ a -4" waistline to boot, 4 more than just good script. Rem', they dumped Kes 4 Ryan. Residentevil1951; They wanted ENT to be diff'. Something fresh.


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My favorite part of Voyager was her in her skin tight outfit, I'd love to get me some of that. Lol

Yeah I know they did but Enterprise really fell flat for me, it had potential but never capitalized on it. And I'm sorry but that intro / beginning credits song is so terrible it almost makes me want to throw up when I hear it.

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Thanks. And I didn't write that she wasn't brought on for sex appeal, just that it was her secondary characteristic to her storyline.

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You seem to be quite aggressively defensive about Voyager.

DS9 is a better developed and better written show than Voyager. The reason, Ronald D Moore and IRA Steven Behr.
Voyager had that hack Brandon Braga!

It's as simple as that and you won't convince me otherwise.

I love Star Trek and enjoy watching them both, but DS9 is superior.

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You're just stating your preference of writer. If we're making it about that, then I would say the writers you promote are the real hacks, since DS9 was a boring show with dumb characters.

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I'm a big fan of DS9, if for no other reason than its bolder narratives in character development. Voyager is more "Star Trek" in retrospect; it's more utopian, episodic, with interesting concepts limited in their overall impact on the characters involved; it's a more comfortable, narratively traditional show. Except for the occasional Maquis episode and the two characters crafted to evolve (The Doctor and Seven of Nine), all other primaries were pretty much unchanged, by the final season, from their original personae, relationships remained positive, respectful, friendly, and largely the same (except for Kes and Neelix); this all holds true for TNG and TOS.

DS9 is more what TOS was at the time of its introduction in 1966; different than its predecessors, bolder in character development and narrative construction, exploring more shades of gray in not only concepts but its major protagonists, allowing them to make mistakes, misjudgments, explore sexual relationships, ultimately their evolution. The show was just more adult. As far as its shared concepts with Star Wars seems to ignore the facts that Lucas' movie was filled with religious tropes, and every Trek explored these same tropes at various times although episodically, and more limited than DS9; TNG may have introduced the Ferengi, Cardassians, Trill, but DS9 delved into them, revealed their cultures in detail. Whether this all makes the show better or worse in the Trek pantheon may boil down to a matter of taste, or age.

I've watched DS9 in its entirety twice, and found that I missed those people when it was over; am currently rewatching Voyager, and find it to be exactly what it was when I first watched it, fascinating concepts, well-told for 90% of the episode, with a safe resolution that has no overall impact. Paris, Kim, and Chakotay are bland, Neelix is often irritating, Tuvok is limited, and the writers couldn't really figure out what to do with Kes after a certain point. I don't dislike the show, it's quite comfy; but that's all it is

I was around for the debut of TOS, seen a lot of scifi/fantasy, and find that I appreciated that DS9, like B5 made character development/evolution as important as its concepts.

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I don't know why this thread was even started if the opening poster has only seen a dozen episodes of DS9 and comparing it to the entire series of Voyager in which you've probably seen all of the episodes countless times.

That's like watching the first 15 minutes of a 2 hour movie, turning it off, and already forming your opinion of it.

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If DS9 can't hook me with a dozen various episodes, then that's the show's failing. The point is that out of all the episodes I've seen, not a single one of them has been entertaining. Voyager has dozens of entertaining episodes that I could watch again and again, just like TNG.

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Then DS9 isn't the show for you.

Move along.

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If DS9 can't hook me with a dozen various episodes, then that's the show's failing. The point is that out of all the episodes I've seen, not a single one of them has been entertaining. Voyager has dozens of entertaining episodes that I could watch again and again, just like TNG.

So what's the point of this thread if you haven't seen the entire DS9 series but only a dozen episodes? You can't make a valid claim if only judging 12 episodes. You haven't even seen a complete season, just episodes spaced out.



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dai- I've watched DS9 in its entirety, twice; Voyager, once. So, the ability or inability to stick with a show is no objective indication of how good it is. One would have to compare how each handled similar/shared concepts and structures to make such a determination of which is better; for example, time travel; when comparing DS9 and Voyager it's easy to see that the former used this plotline far less frequently and with greater respect than the latter; with every use of this concept, the writers of Voyager had no reluctance in creating paradox after paradox, culminating in the series finale where a Janeway 20 years from the future comes back and alters the timeline, allowing the ship to return 13 years earlier than originally; and let's not forget the 'Hell Of A Year' two-parter, an intriguing episode with complex characters, escalating to the mutual destruction of the Time Ship and Voyager; a truly fine piece of work until the concluding at act which basically givens the viewer a great big "Never mind!", the last year never happened, all is well. DS9 never did anything like this to the Trek fans.
There are numerous comparisons of concept that can be made between the two shows.

Perhaps you prefer the journey of a narrative than its conclusion; consequently episodic/short form stories would be more to your taste. What's certain is that one can't objectively determine the overall quality of a program based on 12 random episodes out of over 170; especially given DS9's tendency toward long form narratives.

Let's not forget that it took TNG pretty much an entire season (26 eps) to become the show that people hold in such high regard; that's twice the number you've given DS9.

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