MovieChat Forums > The Buccaneers (1995) Discussion > Who else dislikes Annabelle?

Who else dislikes Annabelle?


She seems so childish and doesnt understand her husband. And then she complains when everyone treats her like a child. Poor Duke trying to understand her. And when he knocks over the table in anger, she starts screaming like shes being murdered. Talk about over exaggerating. Id slap her too to shut her trap and knock some sense into her. She just wanted to be married at 18 like her mother, but It wasnt right of her to accept his proposal. Like her stepmother said, she doesnt understand the seriousness of her role.

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pity the poor girl who marries you, Rayeurth, if that's your approach to dealing with an upset spouse.

Nan was not only sexually innocent, as was normal for a young girl in her era, she was also very naive about the lifestyle, codes of conduct and values of the class into which she was marrying. To go from middle-class American (which was her background, despite the fact that her Daddy had made money on Wall Street) to upper-class British was a huge and seemingly irrevocable step, one for which she simply wasn't prepared. And anyone who could have warned her of what it might be like (Miss Testvalley or Miss March, most likely) were too dazzled by the glories of the match to voice any reservations.

As you point out, her mother-in-law (there is no stepmother in the story) observes that she doesn't understand the seriousness of her role. But is that her fault? She's still a teenager!

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i dont like nan too. julius seems a good man .i believe he didnt do anything wrong. nan loved guy . it was his fault to marry another man

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Didn`t do anything wrong? He bloody raped her!

Atheism: a non-prophet organisation!

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"nan loved guy . it was [her] fault to marry another man ."

He left for two years without giving any indication she should wait for him. When another man was kind and gentle to her, and seemed to share her interests, she got caught up in the dream of romance and married him.

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I am a girl, and disliked her inability to sense his issues. Shes lacking in womens intuition and empathy. In addition to this, she seemed selfish, while he was trying hard to understand her and cater to her needs. Like he said, he was not a monster, just a man who lost touch with his feelings. Since she was given freedom in her youth to express herself, she could have taught him to be more open rather than sulk and push him further away. Annabelle is no Belle (from Beauty and the Beast).

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I agree than Nan acted selfishly at times and she could have tried harder to understand her role in society but she was very young and quickly realized that she had made a mistake in choosing to marry Julius. Julius wouldn't have been so bad a guy if he hadn't have raped her. That was absolutely unpardonable and after that, one can understand Nan's reticence in trying to build a life with him.

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But in the 19th century it was the woman who was expected to change for the man, not the other way around.
As an aside I really hate Beauty and the Beast for the sheer fact that it promotes the completely silly idea that someone will change if you just love them enough. Anyone who has ever loved an addict knows that's not true.

"Freedom of religion means ALL religions not just your own."

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Julius was warned that she was too young and naive to marry, but he did it anyway because he found her amusing. She was a silly girl who had no idea about the responsibilities of marriage, and certainly not the responsibility of her title. Bad decisions all around, but at least Annabelle had youth and inexperience as an excuse.

We gotta travel by day so..lets go

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I'm still watching this but I agree only partially with your assessment. She probably did over-react when he knocked her down, but you must understand she's still very young. I don't know how old she is in the book, but I can see her as being around 20-22 at the time. She probably married when she was a teenager and given her upbringing, was still not very knowledgeable about men. Besides, to go from a more or less carefree existence in America to being a duchess in upper British society must have been a real jolt to her sense of who she was. And as Laura wisely told the Duke, she needed time to grow up and experience life before he married her.

On further thought, I don't like the implication that just because they were married, and he needed an heir, that he was entitled to rape her. Besides raping her even within marriage does make him a monster-despite his protests.

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Not one of you mentioned the fact that he was a homosexual who was literally incapable of wooing a woman and being a proper lover from the day he married her. She said to him "you haven't given me a proper kiss yet" after a week of marriage. Nothing she could do would change his sexual urges which he did to obtain an heir most likely. I knew from the kissing scene that he would be revealed as a homosexual man eventually which it was. She pitied him enough to not expose him at least. You could go to jail for that back then.

"Sometimes you have to know when to put a cork in it."
~Frasier

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Probably haven't mentioned the fact because it was invented by the miniseries and not the book.

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Her husband is a closet homosexual (in the film), cheating on her with a man. I don't think he holds the moral high ground position, here.

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I know this is an old thread, but I cannot resist responding. First of all, the Duke is cold and indifferent. His mother warned him when she said, "women are more complicated than clocks" or something like that. At one point, he was shown staring at the stable boy's bum (and it looked like the stable boy winked at him) hint hint.

I think he found her attractive at first. But, after they were married, he showed her no affection (not even a kiss) and after making her wait and wait, he acted like a boar. He does not know how to show tender, genuine affection to his wife, who is inexperienced herself. She is a bit of a dreamer and married him on the rebound. Neither one of them were prepared for marriage.

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This was changed drastically from the book. In the book, Julius/Ushant and Nan had a somewhat okay sex life, but after her miscarriage, they ceased having sex because he was too timid to broach her "duties" to her. He was confused and angered by Nan, but remained extremely besotted by her--which is what made me irritated and why on my fifth or sixth reading, I feel that Nan's elopement wasn't "romantic" in the least. She made little attempt to meet Julius/Ushant halfway and spent the majority of their marriage with her head in the clouds. Certainly, he made no effort to ease her into the role of being his duchess and he was warned that she was too young, but Nan remained a child even until the end of the book. But then again, according to Wharton's notes, Miss Testvalley was the main character and her unhappy ending, created by her affection of Nan and her romantic nature, was the true, bittersweet conclusion for the book.

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Yeah, Julius was a real winner. Such a poor misunderstood soul.

Let's see:

1. He's aggrogant and ill tempered.

2. His idea of intimacy is to rape his wife.

3. He's insensitive. When Nan urges him to check the living conditions of the tenants because their child is terminally ill, he whines about it being wet and chooses to play with his clocks.

4. He forbids Gertrude (his sister) to marry her true love because he says she's too old and that it 'smacks' of desperation.

5. He's stingy with money. Annabelle has to practically beg him for a loan after her father's misfortune renders him destitute. And in true pimp fashion, he advances her the money so long as she promises to sleep with him so that she may bear his demon spawn.

6. He's an elitist snob. When Guy speaks of the aristocracy's exploitation of the working classes, he threatens not to back him in Parlament.

7. Oh, did I fail to mention the fact that he's a closet homosexual.


Yes, Annabelle was quite unreasonable. She definitely should have made more of an effort to understand this heartless rat bastard.




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1. He's aggrogant and ill tempered.


True. He's as much a child in his behavior and emotions as Annabel is.

2. His idea of intimacy is to rape his wife.


Can't argue with this, but I felt this was such a poor choice of characterization on the writer's part.

3. He's insensitive. When Nan urges him to check the living conditions of the tenants because their child is terminally ill, he whines about it being wet and chooses to play with his clocks.


Okay, he was insensitive, but did Nan have to go out walking in the rain in anger? She could have easily gotten a phaeton or victoria and rode to the tenants (WITH A DOCTOR I might add) rather than risk her health.

4. He forbids Gertrude (his sister) to marry her true love because he says she's too old and that it 'smacks' of desperation.


Who said he was her true love? For the most part, daughters of dukes were expected to marry titled men or heirs to the title. And women were powerless in society. Also, why would Ushant feel inclined to agree with Nan's romantic notions when all he's seen of high-flown romance is that he's been humiliated by his wife and (with the gay point included), he's had to deny his true sexuality.

5. He's stingy with money. Annabelle has to practically beg him for a loan after her father's misfortune renders him destitute. And in true pimp fashion, he advances her the money so long as she promises to sleep with him so that she may bear his demon spawn.


He's not stingy with money. The way English society (and law) worked, was that a wife's income was her husband's--plus, Mr. St George could have settled money on Nan as a dowry, but it was to be administered by the duke. And it's very likely that Nan had never asked for her allowance, and the duke was taken aback by her asking for money (and in the book, his mother had never asked her husband for extra money with no explanation, so it's a given that the duke copied his father's behavior).

6. He's an elitist snob. When Guy speaks of the aristocracy's exploitation of the working classes, he threatens not to back him in Parliament.


Very, very true to the times, though. Guy would actually be considered dangerous by the majority of society, even all the way up to the Queen, and his career could have been cut short by her will. Plus, his stance on abolishing the House of Lords would have been viewed with skepticism by even the working class and Guy's constituency. And Guy is a product of the House of Lords, despite being in the Commons--he's landed gentry, which had just as much power and privilege as titled members of the aristocracy.

7. Oh, did I fail to mention the fact that he's a closet homosexual.


I hate this with a fiery passion. After it was revealed, what the hell did it have to with the plot? So Nan ran away with Guy because she was angry that her husband was sleeping with a man? Shouldn't that have made her feel more sympathetic to his plight; that he was trapped in his role as duke as much as she was as duchess. But nooo....they had to throw this in to make viewers feel better about Nan eloping with Guy because honestly, even though Ushant was revealed to be everything you mentioned above, he was a sympathetic character (after all, was he worse than Lord Richard or Lord Seadown?).

All in all, this is a pretty frustrating mini-series to like if you've read the book and you know a lot about this time period.

http://edwardianpromenade.com

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I agree ... the whole characterization of the duke ( especially in the last part) made the whole things feel so soap-opery, not to mention that it doesn't feel true to what Wharton would have wrote, given her tone and previous works ... really dissapointed.

ask the spokesperson, I don't have a brain

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I'm glad you're able to sympathize with such snobbery.

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I'm not sympathizing with snobbery. My stance is, as stated at the end, from the perspective of someone knowledgeable about the time period (1870s and 1880s) and someone who has read the book many times as well as books about Edith Wharton herself. To be honest, there are no clear-cut villains and heroes in the story, which makes me so thought-provoking and compelling.

http://edwardianpromenade.com

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But nooo....they had to throw this in to make viewers feel better about Nan eloping with Guy because honestly, even though Ushant was revealed to be everything you mentioned above, he was a sympathetic character (after all, was he worse than Lord Richard or Lord Seadown?).



I didn't need incentive for her to elope with Guy and to feel better about it. That happened way before in the movie when we could clearly see the marriage was crap between her and her husband. I don't think the homosexuality aspect made it any more acceptable that Nan should leave. She even says she doesn't want to use that against him. I lost sympathy for Julius a while back in the movie. Also comparing him to other terrible men in the movie doesn't make him more sympathetic or a better man.

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I have to admit, I don't care for Nan at all (tho I do like the actor who has the thankless task of portraying her) -- I just watched this and found her childish, self-indulgent, melodramatic and, worst of all, silly. Her behavior if often weird and inexplicable, and I hope that in the book it's better explained. Wharton is one of my favorite novelists and this story and character seem very unlike her writing.


_______________________________________
Sandy

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In the film's documentary, the character of Nan is said to be inspired by Wharton herself.

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Which is incorrect. Nan was inspired by Consuelo Vanderbilt. Wharton's true sympathies and attention lay with Laura Testvalley.

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I'm almost done watching the series and I have to respectfully disagree. I honestly felt terrible for Annabelle. In some ways I feel bad for Julius, too, but ultimately less so. The rape scene caught me completely off guard. Honestly, I think most people when cornered by their rapist (I could care less that he's her husband, it's rape and it's vile) and asked "Do you want me to force you?" followed by cursing and knocking over a table would be traumatized and I honestly can't blame her for screaming hysterically.

Annabelle shouldn't have accepted his proposal, but she was young and disappointed when Guy announced he was leaving the country. She didn't understand what she was getting into, but given the situation, I don't think many women in her shoes would have either.

No I think not. It's never to become...for I am not the one.

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Wharton doesn't leave in the gray world.

She shows reprocussions on both sides. Society is the true enemy in her stories. There is no clear protagonists and antagonists.

The men are as much victims as the women.


Yes, after the rape and the coldness of his nature, you can see why see would have such a reaction. His actions were traumatizing.

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(I could care less that he's her husband, it's rape and it's vile)


Here we're getting into the problem of judging the past by the standards of the present. The concept of marital rape didn't exist 100 years ago, it wasn't recognized in America and made illegal until the Rideout case in 1975 or so. I can remember, when growing up in the 60s, being told by my own mother that sex was a husband's conjugal right, and that it was also a husband's right to take by force what his wife didn't give willingly -- that it was her fault for not "doing her duty".

I doubt a man in Julius' position, in his time and place, would have ever considered what he did rape, and it's unlikely anyone else then would either, including the wife. In any case, I do feel sorrier for Julius than for Nan -- he kept on trying to make the marriage work and was remarkably forebearing and indulgent with her

Sandy

And the pity is you will never know how much I grieve.

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I doubt a man in Julius' position, in his time and place, would have ever considered what he did rape, and it's unlikely anyone else then would either, including the wife.

I strongly disagree with this statement. While that was the law, there are many laws that existed in the past that a lot of people deliberately chose not to "enjoy" the benefits of, because even though they weren't illegal during those times, many people recognized how heinous such privileges were. For example, slavery.

Just because it was legal doesn't make it morally correct--in any era. Some people chose to take advantage of the benefits of such laws while others found the practices repugnant, and would never make that choice.

In this filmed version of the story, Julian did not choose to take the high road.

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Just because it was legal doesn't make it morally correct--in any era.


Morality is subjective -- I'm often sorry about that myself, but it is. There are probably things most of do right now without giving it a second thought that will be considered horrifically immoral 100, 200 years from now. I'm guessing meat-eating will probably go that way -- until a famine comes along.

And the point is that it wasn't the law -- the law didn't recognize the rape of wives because society did not. While there probably were men who considered it wrong to force themselves sexually on their wives, in that time and place I very much doubt they were in the majority. I doubt they were in the majority at any time until the sexual revolution in the 1960s completely upended the way most people thought about sex.

Julius not only acted like a normal man of his time and place (however abhorent that is by today's standards), overall he treated her much better than most men of his time and place would. Frankly, he treated her better than a lot of men would have today.


Sandy

And the pity is you will never know how much I grieve.

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God help us 😕

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