This + The Original Film Only Two Worth Seeing in Entire Series - Wes Craven's New Nightmare (1994) Discussion

Dream Master, aka part 4, is the worst in the series. I just wanted to throw that out there cause I HATE that movie.

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Are you freaking kidding me? You need to look back at Freddy's Dead right now. The editing alone in that crapfest puts it below Master.

Then compare Master to part 2 & 5 and it's by no means a clear cut flop.

Honestly, Dream Warriors gets too much praise in comparison.

Destination: Rad-City

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[–] hurricane (1908) 5 years ago

4 is better than Freddy's Dead. And Dream Child. And probably Freddy's Revenge as well.

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[–] IndianaMcClane 12 years ago

Personally, I'd rank DREAM WARRIORS up with those two. And while not as good as the original, WARRIORS, or NEW NIGHTMARE I do actually think that for what it is DREAM MASTER is a fun movie. It knew what it wanted to be and I think achieved that. Just a flashy, cheesy, fun slasher film. DREAM CHILD's problem was that it simultaneously tried being darker and more serious in certain areas (like Freddy's plan to possess Alice's child, as well as dealing with the concept of abortion) while simultaneously making Freddy even goofier than any time before. FREDDY'S DEAD was just complete self-parody, and I think FREDDY'S REVENGE has its merits but is bogged down by quite a bit of unintentional silliness and the fact that it's general storyline (possession) does not belong in the ELM STREET series.

Just my two cents.

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[–] Gene360 12 years ago

I love them all. Even Freddy vs. Jason and the remake.

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[–] michaeluk26 12 years ago

I know most people LOVE dream master and I understand that. But to me it took everything good about Dream Warriors and flushed it down the toilet. Freddy became a complete and utter joke. But I also know that most people like that about the character and if there is on movie that most people could recall its probably Dream Master, not us fans but the general public. Still it was way to flashy, nothing even remotely resembling horror. This was a popcorn movie for teens. I recently watched both Warriors and Master and I can tell you the very first thing you notice is atmosphere. There is none in Dream Master. At least Dream Warriors was trying to be serious but again I get why people like that so I am not putting anyone down who loves that movie, or you.

You are EXAXTLY right about Dream Child and Freddys Dead, nothing I could possibly add, you covered it brilliantly. Now the thing with Revenge is this, the rules were not set. The total mind fuc* known as the ending to the original totally confused EVERYONE who saw it. Was it all a dream, was some real blah blah blah. Revenge obviously tried to progress that aspect and I think they did a somewhat good job. Basically the Elm Street series found out what NOT to do with REvenge. It was the sacrifial lamb.

The remake was AWESOME! So dark and twisted, which is how I prefer my Freddy. But again I totally understand why some people dont like that.

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[–] IndianaMcClane 12 years ago

As I said, I can understand why people don't like DREAM MASTER and indeed after DREAM WARRIORS it is a noticeable step down. If you can get past the deaths of the survivors in the beginning, as well as accept a more eccentric Freddy (though I still think he had a bit of menace left even if less than the last three, but definitely more than 5 & 6) than I think it is fine. For better or worse it does not shoot for high goals like the Top 3 of the series and in doing so achieved them with relative ease. Unlike DREAM CHILD which aimed high in the conceptual category, but missed because it became too tonally uneven to truly take its message seriously. Trying to do something deeper, but also sticking too much to what commercially sold. Gameshow-Host Freddy.

And perhaps I should have been more clear on my feelings towards FREDDY'S REVENGE. I think it's got some stuff going for it. I actually don't think the main ideas are bad. A demon trying to possess and eventually return through a confused kid and use it as a metaphor for repressed homosexuality (I always figured being indicative of the self-loathing that comes with it because of society's stigmas and how it can be destructive). When I say I don't think it belong in the ELM STREET series, I'm also trying to make it clear that I don't think it really fit in with what the first film tried to accomplish. The main problem being Freddy's plans and motives. The big thing that made A NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET different from most of its contemporaries was the imagination put in at the setting of the dream scape. It was completely different and scarier, because we all dream and there's nowhere to run. DREAM WARRIORS took that concept and brilliantly expanded on it. FREDDY'S REVENGE nearly abandons the concept all together, except for the bookends. As most of it features him trying to influence Jesse to kill in the real world. We are never even told why Freddy suddenly wants to come back to real world given how in the dream world he's invincible and cannot be caught. Granted it is shown he still has environmental powers in the real world later in the film during the pool party, but we're never given any kind of explanation about how that works. And as I said before taking it out of the dream world takes away the what made the first so special. Though to me is an alright movie as is. I have come to appreciate the film more as the years have passed. It's definitely got its merits, especially Englund giving one of his scariest performances as Freddy in the entire franchise. And the moment where he tears his way out of Jesse's body is one of the scariest moments of the series. I think had it been a standalone horror film with a different (though could be similar) villain and location that wasn't made on a rushed production schedule with the same basic plot could have been really good. In my view it is basically the HALLOWEEN III: SEASON OF THE WITCH of the NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET franchise in that regard.

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[–] michaeluk26 12 years ago

Oh God yeah, in Dream Master Freddy had more menace than Dream Child and Freddys Dead FOR SURE. In Dream Master he was over the top, but in Dream Child it was to such a rididulous degree that it absolutely KILLS the movie and any and all momentum in the film. I have noticed this and I am curious if you have, it seems like most people either LOVE dream master or HATE it. Does it seem that way to you? I know I have seen more people probably say they loved it then hated it though.

First off that was a BRILLIANT analysis of the homosexual subtext that I had NEVER thought of. Trust me its not just your view, I agree it is the black sheep of the series for sure. It seemed at times like a cross between Amittyville with the haunted house, the Exorcist because of the possession, and Nightmare on Elm Street because, well duh, its Freddy.

I will also agree with what you said that made the original so great. Nothing to add, your just spot on with that. I will also say that bringing Freddy into the real world makes him a run of the mill slasher. See I also wanted to know WHY Freddy was reduced to this tactic. Believe it or not I have read there is an explanation in the original script, although I dont know what. Maybe his fight with Nancy left him powerless, or the glove being there trapped him there. It could be on of a million things and I think the movie could have GREATLY changed peoples outlook on this movie with just a simple explantion.

About powers in the real world, he has them in the original as well. Tina is awake when he drags her around the room and kills her and he completely moves real world objects with Rods hanging in the cell. So he has always had some kind of power. Plus again we dont know what really happened in the original, if it was all real or a dream. The only reason we know now is because of Dream Warriors but Freddys revenge did not have that luxuary.

One last thing. I think Freddy is the scariest, or tied with the orginal in terms of how scary he was. And his makeup is by far the scariest of the series. That shot of him looking through the fire at lisa when her dad shoots at him makes me cringe. So we actually agree on a lot of the same things about this movie. Look forward to a response to see what you think. I am always loving to get oppossing peoples views of the nightmare films, kinda weird I know lol

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[–] IndianaMcClane 12 years ago

A lot of fans love DREAM MASTER, and I certainly like it. It is generally from what I've seen considered inferior to the original, DREAM WARRIORS, and NEW NIGHTMARE. And usually above the rest. But I have noticed that it is rather polarizing. Those who don't like it really don't like it because that's when Freddy was just about in full superstar game show host mode that started in a lesser degree in DREAM WARRIORS. And it really comes down to whether or not that can be accepted.

Thanks about the FREDDY'S REVENGE material you said. I have noticed others have also agreed that the film would indeed have worked best if retooled to be a standalone film. The EXORCIST and AMITYVILLE comparisons are rather fitting, and I do like the idea of him needing to use Jesse because he was weakened by Nancy at the end of the original, though of course the question being what about the car with his stripes at the very end. Leading on to...

Things do really get confusing at points with the first one. As you said many debating whether or not Nancy even woke up at all during the film's climax. I honestly don't even have a full answer on that. Given the final ending and the fact that Craven originally meant for the entire film to be a dream I just assumed she was dreaming then, though she didn't come off to me that way all the time. I just don't think her alarm woke her up when it appears to. The scene with Tina screaming I'll be honest I have usually just assumed as her still being asleep. Not common but I've heard of it happening with the objects moving because her physical body was moving while awake. But I will say that the scene with the phone licking Nancy is the only one that seems really out of place to me. That's the only time where I interpreted it completely as a character being fully awake and interacting with Freddy. Now I feel the need to watch the film again to try and figure it out, though of course I don't think anyone can as its deliberately ambiguous. In every film there's always this grey area concerning how interactive his actions are between the dream world to the real world. Ranging from no effect at all, to a lot of effect. Though it's a tough concept to tackle.

As I said before that while REVENGE isn't my favorite NIGHTMARE film, I strongly agree that the portrayal of Freddy is great and one of Englund's best, and the film's greatest strength. I can enjoy carnival barker showman Freddy for what it is, but the darker Freddy is indeed superior. And his line "You are all my children now" one of his best.

I like these kinds of discussions as well.

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[–] michaeluk26 12 years ago

I thought I wrote you back last night but I guess I didnt. Anyways, again you are right. When it comes to the people who dont like it, like me, its mainly because Freddy is in superstar mode as you say. That REALLY is what it comes down to, if you are ok with that or not. I am not but hey, I totally understand people that LOVE that aspect of Freddy. Its just not my cup of tea. Just like people who dont like the serious Freddy, its not there cup of tea. Sorry I just wanted to say cup of tea in a paragraph lol

About your Freddys Revenge comments, I mean it when I say that was actually a BRILLIANT and thought provoking thing that I personally have never thought of but once I did it made SO much sense to me.

It is SO hard to really grasp what the hell happened at the end of the original and really if you think about the whole movie. There is a guy who wrote a whole essay on it and it raises SO MANY plot points that I have never thought of. I will try to find it and link it to you. Really when you think about it, and you said it really, that people see things differently and interprit things differently with films. So true. I will say what I think about it though. I think Freddy has some kinds of power in the real world, we just dont know to what extent. So at some point she really did pull him out of the dream. But at some point, and thats the really hard part, she falls back asleep. That is the only way to explain her walking through a door into a completely different enviroment at the end. With Tina, I kinda agree that she was still in some kind of sleep trance that left her between awake and asleep and let Freddy assualt her in the real world. Now the hard part is Rod because he manipulates a real world object in the real world. Who knows lol Its still my FAVORITE MOVIE OF ALL TIME AND A FEW QUIRKS EVEN MAKE IT MORE ENJOYABLE.

Totally agree about Englunds performance in Revenge. Its good to have a discussion that doesent go into insults which happen quite frequently on here.

http://www.denny-r-walter.de/nightmare-ending.html

There is the link. Its a good read and I highly reccomend it if you havent read it.

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[–] IndianaMcClane 12 years ago

Indeed. As I said before I am one of those who can enjoy super star Freddy for what it is, but do agree that Freddy is better when presented as a darker character. Like in 1-3, though WARRIORS was kind of him in his first stage of entering that mode, as well as New Nightmare and the Remake.

And wow, I guess I didn't think about Rod's hanging because he was asleep at the time, but that's right. Indeed Freddy's powers throughout seems very hard to define as it is a concept that's hard to work with to begin with as it deals with different plains of existence, but I agree that it is one of my favorite horror films as well. The basic essence of the film in itself is ingenious enough to make up for any confusing mechanics. (And indeed as you said is pretty fun to try and figure out)

Healthy discussion is very good to have, as many other threads just lead to people turning things to war and making it personal. (Just visit a board like the STAR WARS form and you'll see what I'm talking about concerning how bad it can get).

And I'll check out that article. Sounds interesting.

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[–] michaeluk26 12 years ago

Yeah I should say I dont really HATE funny Freddy like I say and really at the end of the day I can honestly enjoy almost any of the movies. But I just like the darker take on the character. Thats why I really liked the remake, even though I am in a small minority on that, thats fine. I still LOVE JEH as Freddy.

Yeah I never questioned or thought about the sheet movie in Rods cell until I read that essay and then I was like holy crap. Ingenious is a word I have used very many times to describe the movie just as you did.

Yeah its so much better than bickering back and forth like 12 year olds. I actually enjoy talking about these and other movies and dont really enjoy acting like a child like it seems is prevelant on some of these boards. I have never visited a Star Wars board but I can only imagine what happens on it. I havent even seen the original 3. Just the new ones. I really should check out those huh?

Yeah give the article a read. Its what made me realize the Rod bed sheet moment and it has mention of others that I never thought about as well.

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[–] agreico1 12 years ago

I am going to have to disagree with a lot of what is being said in this thread. I think any of the first four could be considered the best (I actually love all of them). Heck, I will even say that the second one might even be number one. Anyone else here agree?

Formely MetalDude82-1 and AG2789

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[–] dkamberi25 12 years ago

While I would not argue that the original and new nightmare are the best movies in the series, I would not say that they are the only movies worth watching in the series.

For starters, anyone who feels the original and new nightmare are the best then dream warriors should be in the conversation as well. It continues the story from part 1 with Nancy and we are given our first difinitive end to the series. Freddy is not as terrifying as he is in the original or even freddys revenge, but still not the comedian he is in later sequals.

I am probably in the minority here, but after the original, new nightmare and dream warriors, my next favorite is freddys revenge. It goes in a different direction, but who still get tie ins to the original with the family living in Nancy's house. Freddy is still dark and terrifying here and the subtext in this movie give it an interesting take on the horror genre.

I would lump dream master, child and freddys dead all with one another. While not on par with the other movies, they still have value to me because they each add to the story of Freddy by giving some sort of backstory into freddy's character.

While there is a difference in quality when it comes to the individual movies in the franchise. I would argue that they are all worth watching for anyone who loves the original. While the sequals are done by different writers and directors which changes the originals intent, all the sequals add to the freddy character which for me is the best part of watching a freddy movie.

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[–] BrokenMirrorsbrokenMinds 11 years ago

4 used to be my favourite of the series when I first saw it as a young lad (age 6-10 or so). I realize now that I was most attracted to it because of its style of editing, the colours, flashy stuff etc. It definitely has its flaws, and just can't compare to Part 1 or 3. Still a great film though. Nothing can beat the holy trilogy of "Nightmares" 1, 3, and 7. The best out of the series.

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[–] croat-hr 10 years ago

Exactly what you said

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[–] u1929 11 years ago

i agree. i didn't like nn after first watching it bc i wasn't ready to accept the meta horror idea back then, but today it is clear that it's almost a masterpiece.

--
This must have been a cemetery for the... Spanish conquistadores!

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[–] Duragizer 11 years ago

All the Nightmare films with Heather are good. The rest, though - toss 'em (that includes the abysmal joke that is Freddy vs. Jason, too).

Life is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for.

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[–] Littlebitsofgaming 11 years ago

All the Nightmare films with Heather are good.

Except 3 which is terrible.

And so, God came forth and proclaimed widescreen is the best.
Sony 16:9

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[–] Duragizer 11 years ago

Except 3 which is terrible.

IYHO.

Life is like a box of chocolates. A cheap, thoughtless, perfunctory gift that nobody ever asks for.

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[–] Littlebitsofgaming 11 years ago

To anyone with an IQ over 3.

And so, God came forth and proclaimed widescreen is the best.
Sony 16:9

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[–] ElectricWarlock 11 years ago

With the exception of the remake, I think all the films are good in their own ways. There really isn't a "bad" NOES movie besides the remake which was just plain dull. I actually don't mind Freddy having a comedic side to him as much as other people because I feel it sets him apart from serious, straightforward horror villains. Plus, the idea of someone having as much fun as a kid at a carnival while committing acts of murder is very disturbing to me. That being said, I do agree that the this and the original are definitely the best of the series.

I've been waiting for you, Ben.

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[–] MadDog-ThrashTillDeath 10 years ago

Freddy's deatd has to be the worst and the only one i trully disliked (havent seen the remake by the way)

- Thundering chords is what life's all about - Gerre

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[–] jacknthebox2012 10 years ago

I like em all except part 2 that was garbage

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[–] liketearsintherain 10 years ago

I can respect that. If a person asked me "what TWO movies out of the series should i watch?" I would say 1 and 7. However i do think 2 and 3 are worth watching even to none fans. Freddy Vs Jason as well because it was fun. The rest realistically are for fans only

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[–] Sci-Yi-YI 10 years ago

This was the first Freddy movie I ever saw when I was about six. My brothers, sisters and step-siblings rented it. I didn't know what it was. I came in at the scene where Freddy started dragging the babysitter on to the ceiling and butchered her.

That memory stayed with me a long, long time :D

RAWR!

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