MovieChat Forums > Pred dozhdot (1995) Discussion > Root cause of ethnic problem

Root cause of ethnic problem


Just finished watching the film yesterday. My comments are mainly directed towards people living in that region and would thus maybe able to provide some insights into the the reason for strife between people of that region. I'm not a Macedonian, nor am I a Balkan. I live in Asia. Whatever little I know (which is very limited) of the Bosnian/Croatian/Albanian/Macedonian problem has been from TV and newspaper/magazine stories. However, what I would like to know is, is the root of the problem religious (as in Muslims Vs. Christians) or is it much deeper which has taken a religious over tone. The character Mitre reminds one of the characters in the film about the "5 centuries of Muslim rule". I understand that Albanian language is different from Macedonian language. Is it the same with Croats and Bosnians? I know it would be difficult probably to respond to these complex issues in IMDB, but would someone know of a book that provides these insights? I would like to discuss these issues with interested persons.

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The root of the problem is not one but many. To start with, one should ask himself why it came to a war in the first place, which, as long it concerns me, was caused by governments outside of the Yugoslavian border, namely Germany and the USA. Reasons for the acting on their behalf can easily be found in economical but also military tactical ideas. There are many that wouldn't agree with me, yet they usually seem to fail to do so due to nationalism, racism or simply misinformation on their part. It is well documented, although sparingly to be found in news media, that there was essential involvement of the two stated countries in plans of the dissolution of Yugoslavia in the 80's. However, certainly - the people of Yugoslavia failed on their own. To let outer forces heat up old disputes and to act in the way they did, they've proven like many others in history, that humanity is yet far from ethereal. Yes, religious tensions acted and so did nationalistic and capitalistic ideas. They existed before but were usually controlled well during the times of Tito as ruler.

Now to answer your other question: Croatian and Bosnian are similar languages, so is Serbian. Once they were put together as an official language, the Serbo-Croatian. Some may again deny their similarity, unsurprisingly to their hatred, but fact is, they can understand each other quite well without too much effort. It should be noted however that due to the recent conflicts and the stronger nationalism in those countries, the languages are drifting apart, for example through reviving archaic words. Macedonian is harder to understand for Serbians, so it seems, despite bordering each other, but yet they have their similarities as well. Montenegrin is a recent invention - or so I think - again to rising nationalism in their area. Just a few years ago they were recognized as speakers of Serbo-Croatian, respectively Serbian.

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Many thanks viodrin for helping me understand the background. However, if we restrict ourselves to the context of the film, there seems to be a strong religious element that runs across all the ethnic divides. There is, for instance, the Albanians, who seems to be hated by the (Bosnians/Serbs/Macedonians/Croats?). Are majority of Albanians Muslims? And why to Macedonians hate Albanians so much. Is there some historical reason or it is religious?

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Ok Issus, I'll try to answer your question, at least in part.

For one thing, you shouldn't take the movie literally, it's not historically accurate. There was no conflict between Macedonians and Albanians ever in history before 2001 apart from gangs of villains and thieves that really didn't care that much if you are an Albanian or Macedonian. The film was shot in 1994, so at that time there wasn't any conflict.

So, that fairy tale the West likes to embed in everyone's heads is not true. This is not some kind of "medieval tribal society with tribes killing each other for centuries". Admittedly, Macedonians and Albanians never really liked each other that much, but I can say that of many other European peoples. It doesn't mean they want to exterminate each other (although crazy people exist everywhere).

In 2001 there was a conflict. So, Before the Rain proved to be a kind of prophesy. But, that is over now, and I hope we can live in peace for the next 1000 years.

Other thing you should know about is that no one dresses like that in real life, at least not anymore.

And yes, most of the Albanians are Muslims, and especially in Kosovo and Macedonia almost all of them are Muslim.

Again, don't take this film as a history lesson.

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Marjanian, many thanks. will try to heed your advice and not try to take this film as a history lesson. The problem is that, when a Macedonian makes a film about situations in Macedonia or for that matter former Yugoslavia, one automatically assumes a certain political reality especially for an uninitiated person coming from another continent. All the more so, if one sees the format of the film (which is grammatically completely different from the mainstream style). However, I do admit that, I have been trying to understand the history along with it's cultural nuances by watching films made by film makers coming from that particular region. (Recently watched 'No Man's Land', have just obtained "Underground'. I did watch "Welcome to Sarajevo" on the T.V. but found "Before The Rain" and "No Man's Land" far more satisfying,artistically speaking....which apart from the history lesson is also extremely important). The reason is that I find the Bosnian conflict extremely intriguing, to say the least. It seems to me that, there are some deep running rifts between these nations, running for centuries may be, but were perfectly OK to live with each other as 'Yugoslavia'. These people even fought the Nazis (the Germans were taught a lesson in the early part of the Balkan campaign) and I'm sure, the Serbs, Croats, Albanians and Bosnians all fought together. But how did things fall apart after the collapse of the Soviets? Are these people culturally so different? What are the historical reasons? May be I should read a history book to understand the full nature of the issues rather than send lengthy replies :)

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Yes, this is a film from a Macedonian about Macedonians. However, the intended public is the West. We like the film too, but we take it with a dose of reality, as a sort of tale about people, not really about history and the country.

And about the Yugoslav wars, believe me when I say that ancient animosity between all the different ethnic groups is more of a modern day myth than a reality. The first Serbo-Croatian conflicts didn't start in the Middle ages, they started in WW2. The Serbo-Albanian conflict started in the beginning of the 19th cent. with Serbian independence etc.

Actually, all the conflicts are a result of the losing of power by the Ottoman Empire and the creation of the first Balkan nation states which happened in the beginning of the 19th cent. They were weak and small countries and needed larger territory and started wars for that. In order to justify those wars they created national myths and blew the importance of old folk legends out of proportion. This wasn't the case only with ex-Yugoslavia, but with the whole region as well.

Yugoslavia managed to survive without conflicts for so long because the national mythology was replaced with communist ideology.

However, at the end of communism power-thirsty politicians rediscovered demagogy and populism and thrived because of the poverty and unhappiness of the population and they invented new myths and revived old ones.

It's all very unfortunate. The Yugoslav wars weren't inevitable at all, they were quite avoidable.

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And to answer the second part of your question...Macedonians, Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins and Slovenians are all Slavs by descent with similar languages, but often different religions. Croats and Slovenians are catholic, Bosnians Muslim, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians Orthodox Christians.

The Albanians are Muslim and they are also from different ethnic descent.

Are we all really different? Maybe culturally Croats and Slovenians are a bit more different, but other than that, no. We do have much in common.

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Macedonians are not Slavs by descent. "Slav" is a linguistic group and not an ethnicity.

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[deleted]

Slav ethnicity is just a theory.

Wikipedia...LOL.

Too much to debate on a movie forum.

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[deleted]

The root cause of these problems is listed here in order of top 3:

1) The hunger and desire for more land
2) The actions of which Albanians undertake in Macedonia/Kosovo (Although rare, they rape, steal, or sometimes kill)
3) The cultural differences. Albanians have a different point of view of what life should be, especially within the Muslim Albanians, which have a very strong religious brainwashing. On the other hand, Macedonians/Serbians are typically Christian Orthodox and have different customs, morals, and traditions.

And BTW, Slavs ARE a sub-racial group and they are Part of the white Caucasian race. Being a Slav isn't just "linguistic"

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Slav ethnicity is hardly a theory. it is an ethnicity just as any other ethnicity.

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Marjanian, that is very succinctly put. A great summary. I don't know whether you're from Macedonia or from Serbia/Bosnia/Croatia. Can you suggest some great films of the region that will illustrate the issues? I'm currently watching 'Underground' by Kusturica. Just finished watching 'No Man's Land'. Two completely different films of different scales.

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Thank you Issus. Yes, I'm a Macedonian.

Well, since you watched No Man's Land you probably got the message it wants to portray - how similar we are and how stupid the Yugoslav wars were. In most of the film you are even on the point of forgetting who is who. And always the question - Who started the war?...

Yes, there are many other great films that can help you understand the conflict and how and why everything happened. These films are all very different on the surface, but if you scratch a bit below it they are all about the tragedy and the unfortunate circumstances set in motion by it.

Rane (The wounds) - 1998, about teenagers in the Serbian criminal underground;

Lepa Sela Lepo Gore (Pretty Village Pretty Flame) - 1995, the most beautiful film about the war in Bosnia ever made and one of my favorite films of all times. Actually filmed in Bosnia during the war.

Other interesting films from the region: Dom za vesanje, Bure Barut, Dust (Milcho Manchevski).

You may find other films by Emir Kusturica. They are all good.
For example, Bela Macka, Crn Macor (White Cat, Black Cat) - A film about the Roma population.

Other films about the Roma population:
Gypsy Magic - Macedonian film

These are the movies that I thought of right now. There are many, many others, so look around.

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marjanian. Many thanks again. I will look around for the DVDs of these films that you have mentioned. Obviously, Milcho Manchevski is the first choice. Is the DVD available?

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Yes, it's available to find a DVD with Manchevski`s second movie named DUST. It's a totally different story than BEFORE THE RAIN is, but a part of macedonian history is described with it, too. Actually, it is a movie which remains of the period (of five centuries) while Balkans were ruled by Ottoman Empire (Turks).
At this moment Manchevski is doing post-production of his last movie named KOSKI (Bones). :)))

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[deleted]

majanian

many thanks for the beautiful film Pretty Village Pretty Flame. Just finished watching it yesterday and must say one of the most deeply moving films I saw. all I can say is what a waste. Btw, what is the song the common song) that they play on the radio? Very touching tune. I'm sure for the native Serbians and Croatians it is a probably a very famous song. Even though I did not understand the context I could intellectually grasp the cultural bonds between these two groups. My only question is, why did they fight? Other than the religious divide, there did not seem much difference between the groups. Actually, this phenomenon is not very alien to me. I come from India and we had (have?)similar problem around which two nations got divided close to 60 years ago - India and Pakistan. Culturally very similar but divided around complex religious issues. Thanks again.

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Marjanian. I came across the names 'Chetnik' and 'Ustashe' in the film "Lepa Sela Lepo Gore". It sounded like insults. Can you elaborate on this please?

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Hi Issus, I'm glad you like Pretty Village Pretty Flame. Yes, I agree with you, it's one my favorite films... I'm not sure about the song, I don't remember.

Chetnik and Ustashe and the same thing from a different point of view. Originally the Chetniks were the Serbian monarchist supporters. At the begining of WW2 they started fighting the German occupation, but soon then allied with the Germans and began fighting against the communists. They also fought the Ustashe and pretty much everybody who was not Serbian.

The Ustashe were the irregular army forces of the German puppet state of Croatia in WW2. They made many genocidal crimes and killed anybody who wasn't Croatian, especially the Serbs and Muslims. Their direct rivals were the Chetniks.

The Ustashe and Chetniks in the movie are the followers of the megalomanian "ideals" of their predecessors of WW2.

Why did the Balkan wars happen? The seeds were planted in WW2, as you can see. But if the economy was better in 1990, and if it wasn't for the power-hungry nationalist politicians, nothing of this would have happened. The war was absolutely pointless and avoidable. However, nationalist politicians on all 3 sides were raising the stake since 1984 and were convincing their side that the other sides were guilty for the failing economies and they kept reminding them of WW2.

The religion factor was a dividing factor, but not as usually people outside of the Balkans think about it. The thing is, religion here has a national overtone, so much so that you didn't have to call the people Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks, you could have called them Orthodox, Catholic and Muslim. If a Serb for example would take the Muslim fate, he would be treated more like a national than a religious traitor and he wouldn't be called a Serb anymore, but a Muslim or Bosniak. So, it's not really about religion, because people here aren't really religious, it's about nationality and their differences blown out of proportion (usually inventing differences and stereotypes where there weren't any).

BTW, since you are Indian, can you recommend me some interesting Indian films?

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Marjanian, many thanks for the response. I will come back to you with some more questions...I am currently re-watching "Lepa Sela..." there are quite a few nuances not easily visible for a person not belonging to the region.
I will be glad to suggest Indian films. The point is, what is the kind of films that you like watching? If the above film is an indicative taste, then I will provide some names which have political / sociological overtones. In India, there are main stream films, in the language Hindi (you may have heard of Bollywood), which is an escapist form of film with very little resemblance to the life of people in India, full of song and dance and romance. Then, there are films made in regional languages (India is linguistically a very diverse country). Some of these regional films are very good, of the kind that you like watching. But you may have problems getting these films.

As a starter, I would suggest one of the greatest Indian films of all time made by a director called Satyajit Ray, called the "Apu Trilogy" (you can look it up in the IMDB). The three films are called "Pather Panchali - The song of the Road" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048473/), "Aparajito - The Unvanquished" and "Apur Sanshar - The Life of Apu". All these films were made in the late '50s and are considered to be classics. I recommend that you read about them, before you order/rent. Some of them are available in P2P sites too.

BTW, I have obtained "Rane" which I aim to watch in the next few days. Watching "Black Cat White Cat" was marvelous and joyous experience. BTW, were the characters speaking in Romany? There are some words which are taken from the Indian language (not surprising as the Romanys came from India).

Do you live in the Balkans? Because, other than P2Ps, obtaining Indian films may be a problem for you.

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Another Indian film (even though it is in English with a liberal sprinkling of Hindi) is The Monsoon Wedding (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0265343/). It won a best film award at Venice Film Festival.

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Hi Issus,

Yes, ask whatever interests you, I understand that by not having a deeper knowledge of the Balkan languages, culture and history, you might lose some nuances of the meaning, so if there is anything i can help, I'll be happy to give you my view.

About Black cat, White Cat...I lost my copy somewhere, so I don't really remember how they were speaking, because the speech of the Romas changes from place to place. For example, in my town where the Roma people are Muslim they speak a mixture of Romany, Turkish and Macedonian. They may use all the three languages in one sentence. In the town next to mine (where they are Christian), they speak pure Macedonian, just with an Romany accent and a few Romany words. As for Black Cat, White Cat, I don't really remember, but I think they spoke a mixture of Romany, Serbian and some Turkish.

By the way, I have an interesting film that you might want to see, it something that very few people have seen, but in my view is vastly underestimated. It's full with mysticism, symbolism and adventure. It's called the Secret Book (le Livre Secret-fr, Tajnata Kniga -mk)- http://imdb.com/title/tt0350183/. Do try to find it, its worthed.

About the Indian films, thank you for your recommendations, I have managed to locate all of them (even though I live in Macedonia) and I'll watch them in a few days. I generally like film with socio-politic subject, but even I need something to cheer me up once in a while, so if you have some suggestion about a Bollywood film, tell me about it.

Oh, I almost forgot, my parents wanted to know if I could find some Indian film that they've seen 30 years ago and fell in love with. It was called Mother and I think (but I'm not sure) that the production date is somewhere in the early seventies (maybe 1972). So, if you can give me some info, I'll appreciate it.

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Marjanian. Is it called "Mother India" by any chance? If so, this was made in the the year 1959. Can you ask your parents to provide some story line sketches? I might be able to help. Also the language.

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I asked my father, and he says it's possible. Lots of beautiful music. They watched it in 1978, so I guessed it's from the early seventies, but 1959 is possible. It was a huge hit here. Anyway, I'll check it out here on IMDb.

Update: I found this one, it's probably the one you were thinking about, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050188/, my father is not a 100% sure, but thinks that might be the one. Anyway, I'll try to find it, but I don't think the movie will be a problem, more likely the subs will. Anyway, thanks, this will make my old folks very happy.

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If it is indeed "Mother India" then it's an epic film in India. India's first foray into Oscar (was nominated but did not get the award of course). A story of one woman's fight after the death of her husband to bring up her two sons at the same time keep her piece of agricultural land from falling into the hands of the avaricious money lender. A kind of true picture of the rural India (even today), though depicted with a heavy dose of melodrama. And yes, there are some beautiful songs. Please try out the following films:

"Sholay" : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073707/ - Seven Samurai meets Once Upon a Time in the West. One of the greatest films of all time in India (mainstream entertainer).
"Lagaan: : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0169102/ (another Oscar nominee). You need to appreciate cricket a bit though.

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Hello Issus123 and Marjanian.

I've read all your messages with great interest. I watched "Before the Rain" last night, for the 4th time since it was first screened in the cinema. A very beautifully made and tragic film. I too wanted to know more about the political background in the former Yugoslavia, and about the Macedonia/Albania situation, so I checked the messages in IMDb first, and thought I'd need to go to Wikipedia or somewhere else also.

I thought perhaps the director was showing audiences how these crazy wars begin, with sometimes a blind mistake or reckless reaction, and then escalate until they are beyond control, with resentments spreading, becoming ingrained until one day we have a major civil war, or cross-border wars. In the film I don't think we ever found out if the young girl actually did kill anyone or not, and in real life, I guess warring peoples have often lost memory of when and where it all began.

This film contains a lot to think about.

I've taken notes of the films suggested by Marjanian, although I've seen all the Emir Kustarica films, the others by Milcho Manchevski and other directors sound like excellent recommendations. I've seen the Indian films mentioned.

Thanks for sharing your enlightening discussion, you two well informed and civilised film lovers.

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Yes, macedonian and albanian languages are totally different, nearly no one common word, except international words. Voidrain forget to explain this, I hope I'm not late to support the answer. :)

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Your surname Subhashisc = Subašic... You're ancestors are for sure from Dalmacia, somewhere around the road from Knin to Šibenik..

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The root of the problem is neither religious nor ethnic. As everywhere else in the world, the root of the problem is politicians wanting to control more than they have at any one moment. They deliberately feed a religious or ethnic frenzy that allows individuals to plunder, seek revenge or otherwise act on their negative instincts using this artificial conflict as a shield to disguise their true motives.

Yugoslav people lived together peacefully for decades, going to the same schools, same holiday locations, serving the army together, working together and intermarrying as well. There were prejudices, as they are anywhere in the world, but these were within reasonable bounds. It took years of strenuous political warmongering by politicians and criminals acts by their allies in the underworld to create the conditions for ethnic and religious conflict. It was not easy, but they worked hard at it and somehow pulled it off.

Now, they are saying the Americans and/or Germans instigated the whole thing and that the locals somehow had no choice but to go and slaughter their neighbors. Not very convincing, this is another excuse, just like the first one. There is no religious conflict, there is no ethnic conflict, only greed and anger at one's own lack of success in life.

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You are perfectly right! It's all about the politics wanting to control the folk and generate frenzies.

I'm really glad that today, while having the means (mass media) the political greediness somewhat calmed down, partly because of the new regulations.
Saying this, even today I can definitely feel in Hungary, where I'm from, that they are deliberately trying to turn us against the countries that were formed after the Trianon agreement. In reality, we get along fine, no serious ethnic problems whatsoever, but the politics and media tells us otherwise...

It was all about mind controlling the masses many years ago, and it still is the case in most countries.

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