Your English is Overrated
Get used to disappointment.
share[deleted]
MovieChat Forums > Il postino (1996) Discussion > Your English is Overrated
What do you mean?
Proud Rumrunner
A life...where can I download one of those?!
i guess he means poetry written in english, as opposed to italian / german / whatever langauge...
shareMy personal feeling:
Italian is the most beautiful language in the world in terms of sound. Even more so than Spanish speakers, Italians seem to shy from anything that disrupts the flow of the language, which is why so few words end in a non-vowel in Italian (and why the stereotypical Italian accent speaking English seeks to put a -a onto the end of everything: "But-a hey-a, that's-a my car-a"). The soft 'g' (as in "gelato") and 'c' (as in "felice"-- 'feh-LEE-chay') enhance the natural beauty of the language. When I was in Italy, it was hard at times to try to understand people (particularly females); I wanted just to listen to the physical sound of the words coming out of their mouths.
English is the most precise language in terms of shades of meaning-- how can it not be, with by far the largest vocabulary of any tongue? Some would argue that this alone makes English the best language in the world, since all of civilization tends toward greater communication (think of the evolution of technology here) and since having more synonyms with such nuanced meanings permits greater precision of communication. I'm not sure if I'd agree, but it's a good argument. Unfortunately, English, or at least American English, is being destroyed... not sure I could blame any one thing for this, but we've got a president who can barely speak and a culture that seems increasingly to value stupidity. So there's that.
And after that, well, the game was mine.
-- Francis Begbie
[deleted]
Also true. Ironic, isn't it-- that American English is being destroyed by its native speakers, while at the same time enslaving those outside what should be the range of its influence?
And after that, well, the game was mine.
-- Francis Begbie
... do you want me to be sorry that you don't like american english?
and to that post earlier, the most romantic languages in my opinion are:
French
Italian
Spanish (but not mexican spanish... not at all, no offense to mexicans)
Portuguese (sp?)
I never said I don't like American English. That'd be pretty dumb, because I speak American English. I just think it's being destroyed by its native speakers. English as a language is, for reasons stated above, and in my opinion, the greatest tongue in the world.
As for your romantic languages... Romanian is also a 'romance' language... and while I'm not sure how it sounds (not a whole lot of Romanian being bandied about out there), I'd be willing to bet it's at least as naturally mellifluous as Portuguese, which to be honest sounds a lot like Russian at times (what with all the "zh" sound).
And after that, well, the game was mine.
-- Francis Begbie
You are one the lucky ones destroying the language we speak. American English has many beautiful words that people abbreviate and misuse. You give a prime example of that. To quote: "That'd be pretty dumb." That'd? This word does not exist. People like you try to find an easier way to express your thoughts and feelings, when in fact it just hurts your point.
shareYou claim that "that'd" doesn't exist. This is clearly false and can be easily demonstrated by the fact that it exists in the post you criticize, as well as in countless other texts, many written by some of the greatest prose stylists of the language. Perhaps you meant to say that "such a contraction shouldn't exist in correct English", but that shows an ignorance of how languages work. Contractions are a perfectly acceptable form in all forms of English, except for the most formal of written registers. Strunk and White, Shakespeare, Dickens, Pinchon, Dickinson, Milton and many others all used contractions. Are you placing yourself above them in determining what constitutes proper English?
Why is the use of a contraction any less legitimate than, say, the deletion of a relative pronoun, something you did in your very first sentence? Instead of writing "You are one the lucky ones who are destroying the language..." you abbreviated the sentence and reduced it to a form with neither the relative pronoun who nor the linking verb are. Of course, your elimination of the relative pronoun is just as acceptable as the previous poster's contraction.
It is truly ironic that your posts are filled with grammar, usage and vocabulary mistakes.
E.g.
. Perhaps you meant to say that "such a contraction shouldn't exist in correct English", but
As anyone with an education knows, the comma goes inside the end quote.
You also fill your screeds with split infinitives.
share
What you call words are imperfect spelling approximations of sounds. A native AE speaker does not pronounce out 'would' as you'd try/you're trying/ to impose.
[deleted]
Perhaps you don´t really know or have never really listened to Mexican Spanish... It might not be the best of all but I consider it more practical than Spanish from Spain...
shareSame here I think that english is very noble language but *beep* americans are just butchiring by saying waz up, "thats hot" and a bunch of spoiled girls and blacks just inventing words. So like you i think English is k, but american english is just to butcherd with no cultural at all especially after leaving with a bunch of rednecks for 8 years.
share"...and a bunch of spoiled girls and blacks just inventing words"
So four years later - are you still that much of an ignorant bigot?
"So four years later - are you still that much of an ignorant bigot?"
So, seven months later and you still ascribe to the Political Correctness doctrine of labeling opinion, which is rooted in truth, but differs from yours, as "bigotry"?
FYI girls DO use the term "that's hot" and blacks HAVE invented their own words---> ebonics is what it is called, and it's recognized even by school systems across the US. Ebonics is present in rap "music" as well.
That is the trouble with Political Correctness. It is used as a weapon to silence the masses and to intimidate critical thinkers. It is leading to the destruction of the United States and is not only anti-American (it has it's roots in cultural Marxism) it's institution is very dangerous for everyone, including YOU.
Google "The Origins of Political Correctness" (by Bill Lind) and see for yourself its genesis, and how it is used to silence free speech and thought.
ROTA Top Foreign Language Films List: http://www.imdb.com/list/qQvbXmXhhCU/
Seven months later -
Though it's worth pointing out that all English speakers are ruining the language. Ever tried to listen to someone from northern England? Good luck.
www.imdb.com/list/TNxI-Raigt0/ My Top 100, suggestions & comments welcome.
One of my professors, whose opinion I hold in high esteem, says there are two languages that are made for pure poetry: Ancient Greek and Russian. I'm stuck in English though, so at best all I can do is sift through translations. I like W. S. Merwin's translations of Neruda, but also know what a Ben Belitt can do to a genius (have you read his version of "Walking Around?"); translators have to earn a reader's trust, and only a poet can translate a poet.
We did meet forty years ago. At that time we were both influenced by Whitman and I said, jokingly in part, 'I don't think anything can be done in Spanish, do you?' Neruda agreed, but we decided it was too late for us to write our verse in English. We'd have to make the best of a second-rate literature. ~ Jorge Luis Borges
_____
"The wisest man is therefore he who loafs most gracefully." ~ Lin Yutang
Russian is extremely beautiful, as is Ukrainian. They just aren't as common in the west, so they are overlooked.
share[deleted]
It really is true, English has recently accumulated its one-millionth word. However, the average English speaker (especially Americans, in my opinion) does not use hardly any of them. When an astute English-speaker tries to write extensively in another language (in my experience, French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and Persian) one can definitely sense the restrictions of the other language.
shareI disagree with the last part of your post.
I think to say that English is the language with the largest vocabulary of any tongue is really relative, but is undoubtedly that English vocabulary is vast, but to say that because of this English is the best language in the world… I think only a person with English as mother languages and probably someone who only speaks English would say this. I’m sure you have a great vocabulary and you can communicate very precisely, but it depends normally on the person who is speaking in great part.
My mother language is Spanish, I can speak English (not as a native but I can communicate what I want for luck!) and I can also speak German... what you say is totally relative, you can be really precise in any of this three languages if you want, but my personal opinion the one of this three in which normally you must be really precise is German… so many prepositions, so many declinations that tend to make more precise what you say.
English is not regulated by any Academy as Spanish is… German isn’t regulated by any Academy also. This fact makes really difficult to know exactly how big English vocabulary is, it depends on the source.
I liked this movie a lot… I hope you have enjoyed to.
Cheers… Julián
English is no the language with the largest vocabulary. Greek has 2.4 million words while the most complete english dictionary has about half a million. Moreover, the question which language is the richest, is void by definition. There are languages (like greek and arabic) where you can construct any word in order to describe anything, using prefixes, suffixes and subjects that are native to this language and can be understood by anyone. E.g. how many englih speakers could understand what cacography, epilogy or pseydomantes mean? They are all words I just made up, but would make perfect sense in any greek speaker.
As for poetry and sound, I speak 7 languages and personally I find italian from the north and russian from the west the best sounding languages I have heard of. Brazilian portugese from the coast come really close. As for poetry I think greek and spanish are the most expressive and powerfull (french is not bad either)
Ti amo amico, anchio penso che il italiano e una bellisima lingua, pero non oh potuto scriverlo per dei anni. Campioni del mundo Italia 2006
shareparlo l'italiano, e molto diventente!!! its so much more fun then l'inglese :)
shareEnglish is the most precise language in terms of shades of meaning-- how can it not be, with by far the largest vocabulary of any tongue? Some would argue that this alone makes English the best language in the world, since all of civilization tends toward greater communication (think of the evolution of technology here) and since having more synonyms with such nuanced meanings permits greater precision of communication. I'm not sure if I'd agree, but it's a good argument.
I love English, but I find it quite imprecise in many things; for one thing, it doesn't have all the verb tenses Portuguese does. Also annoying is the gender ambiguity of a simple English sentence: "They went out for dinner"; they who? Women? Men? Men and women? Portuguese can distinguish between a group composed solely of men or women. I believe some languages can even distinguish between groups composed of men and a majority of women, or women and a majority of men. Now that's precision! English lost the ability to convey information regarding gender, number, pasts, futures, continuing actions after dropping most of its inflections from nouns and verbs. Turkish verbs, for instance, can end in 2 million different ways; surely that conveys more precision than English's four ways: quack, quacks, quacked, quacking.
English also lacks a verb that I find essential: 'estar'. English must use the verb 'to be' for both 'estar' and 'ser', making it imprecise. 'Ser' implies an unchangeable state; 'estar' implies a sudden change in one's state. English uses the same verb for two very different actions.
English does have a quality that Romance languages lack in my opinion: its amazing ability to create new words. Spanish or Italian need to add a prefix or a suffix to a noun to create a new verb, for instance; English only has to put 'to' before a noun to turn it into a verb: great! English can add two random nouns to make a new one: head + ache = headache; how simple. I believe this has helped English create a large vocabulary. However there has never been an English book that remained untranslated in a foreign language because of vocabulary; All languages are translatable; what one language conveys with one word, another may need a whole sentence; people translate meaning, not words. For instance, Portuguese smugly prides itself of the fact it has a noun that no other language apparently has, 'saudade', which describes the feeling of sadness one feels when a loved one is absent. Now an English speaker would say, "I miss X"; however I'm sure the feeling is not lost to English speakers just because there isn't a word for it in the language. The German have a word, Schadenfreude, that means having joy in someone else's misery (especially a friend; crazy Germans); the English adopted this word, but surely before that they could easily have described this feeling in the sentence, "I feel joy in someone else's misery". Either with a word or with a sentence, any idea can be described.
If English has been gaining ground since the 20th century, I'd venture to say it's not because of its huge vocabulary (which not even English speakers use completely), but because English is really easy to learn. At least learning bad English, enough for two foreigners to communicate, is easy. A language like Italian, with its 40 verb forms, plurals, and gender suffixes, is more complicated.
Sorry for the long post, but I really do love talking about languages.
This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel. share
It's true that Portuguese, like Spanish, shows the gender of people in 3rd person plural demonstrative pronouns and that English doesn't (it just has "they"). On the other hand, English clearly shows gender in third person singular possessive pronouns (his, her, its) and Spanish and Portuguese don't. Neither of this means that one language is more or precise in general although each has a different mix of (im)precision in specific contexts.
And probably every language in the world has some partisans who insist there is some set of words or sounds found only in that language and no other and that this makes it unique...and superior. Portuguese fans often mention saudade, Czechs mention their "r" sound found in "Dvorak", for example.
An interesting post.
However, the point about English having "by far the largest vocabulary of any tongue" is often a source of misunderstanding. English has the biggest dictionaries in the world, but that is not the same thing as saying that average English speakers have a vocabulary any larger than that for average speakers of other languages. For a comparable skill level--say "ordinary conversation" or "reading a newspaper" or "doing a PhD"--one will have to know about the same number of words regardless of the language. It's a common claim for many a language that it is "the most precise language in terms of shades of meaning" and given that all languages are probably more or less equal in terms of precision, this is a claim that's equally true (or equally false, depending on how charitable one's feeling) for each language.
Just a few examples. Many fans of Arabic, for example, argue that the regular way of changing 3-consonant roots allows for unparalleled precision and capaciousness. An obvious problem is that many other Semitic languages share this same feature. Or take French. Its partisans often insist that the protection offered by the Academie guarantees an exactitude missing in other languages, except that lots of languages have similar official bodies. Many languages have propagandists who insist that it is the original human language and thereby purer, better, more natural. Turkish, Chinese, Hebrew, Tamil, Sanskrit, and Korean are just some of the languages for which I've heard or read such specious claims.
And could you please tell me any time in which many people didn't fret that English is being destroyed? This is a common complaint, and not just for English. At any given moment, it's always possible to find people who bemoan the destruction of their language and others who just as insistently bang their chest because they're sure their language has never been better. And it's the same for English.
David Traversa
Michael, maybe you are right saying that Italian is the most beautiful language in the world. I don't know. I speak it --not because my parents were italian (they were) but because eventualy I went to la Dante Alighieri in Buenos Aires to learn it and life ultimately took me to Italy where I lived several years. My personal feeling is that Portughese (the one spoken in Brazil, mind you) is the most beautiful language in the world. Italian is terribly sexy, but Brazilian (¿?) not only is terribly sexy, it's joyful and adorable, like a little kitten, you feel that when they talk to you they envelope you with playful friendliness. Now in Buenos Aires are many Brazilian tourists, and they disarm you just by thanking you when you indicate a place they are asking for. And the other magnificent language that is absolutely poetical is Guaraní --the language spoken by the native Paraguayan-- almost unknown outside Paraguay and unfortunately going to die some time in the near future because they don't have their own alphabet, they use the Spanish one (and because Spanish is taking over).
Also Michael, you complain about Mr. Bush --it seems that everybody does-- and rightly so, but then, you should come to Argentina to complain about Cristina Fernández, our new president...What a DISASTER! well, countries have as leaders what they deserve, as someone said very correctly once.
Sorry about my stilting English (Here heavy blushing), but I wanted to contribute to your message --a bit late, no doubt-- finding it very simpático.
Overall I agree.
I'll just have to profoundly disagree on the fact that English is the language with the largest vocabulary and hence with the largest range of meanings...
I'm guessing you're a native english speaker. You would have to know other languages to a great, great extent in order to say that. And let me tell you that you are wrong.
I'm portuguese and my language is very old, as are other latin languages, having evolved for centuries from the latin, itself a very, very rich language.
I fairly know other languages such as italian, french and spanish (not to mention english) and I can tell that, naturally, they too have enormous amounts of synonymous and words with subtle differences in meaning.
Maybe even more than english, I might add. English is a much more simpler language in terms of grammar, with a lot less of variations in verbs for instance, which makes it a lot easier to learn than other languages.
If I'm aware of the range of vocabulary the english language has to offer, namely because of what I see in Shakespeare, I must underline that english, not only isn't the language with the largest vocabulary, but even less "by far" as you claim.
"English is the most precise language in terms of shades of meaning"
Not sure if serious; when you say "my friend", you don´t even tell me if it is a woman or a man...
so much for precision....
How is it overrated? Everyone is talking about how beautiful italian is (and it is), but it isn't as though the whole world is bragging about the beauty of the English language and it just doesn't cut the mustard. Sounds like you are just trying to get a rise out of people.
shareI really don't think English is the most spoken language in the world (I mean, the most spoken language in the world is probably chinese) because it's the most beautiful, or the most complete. I'm italian, and I know for sure that we have a larger vocabulary than yours, you can tell with one word what we must tell with ten words to get to the same point. And that's my point, I think English is so largely spoken because of its simplicity, and I dont't think this is bad.
But this has nothing to do with the movie.
Anyway I think poetry shouldn't be translated, because it's the original language that makes it poetry, otherwise it only becomes a sequence of phrases without any musicality.
Okay, to clarify here:
1. I never said English is the most widely spoken language in the world-- correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that title would go to the Mandarin dialect of Chinese. (I'm sure Spanish is high on that list as well.)
2. As far as English having the largest vocabulary: it does. By far. This is probably a result of how many different influences have come to form the English language-- for one thing, it's both Latinate (and thus close in some respects to romance languages) and Germanic (hence all the short, gruff-sounding monosyllabic words). Think about the groups of people that combined to form the language: you had the whole Angles-Saxons-Jutes thing, plus a good deal of Celtic and Nordic influence, in what was to become England; they were then invaded by the Normans (French).
Sperequa, you inadvertently proved my point by pointing out that we can say, in English, what it takes you ten words to say in Italian. We can say it in fewer words precisely because we have more words in our vocabulary, and for any idea you want to express, there's probably a specialized word for it. Bigger vocabulary = greater economy of expression.
And after that, well, the game was mine.
-- Francis Begbie
Well, let's make it like that: every language has its own words, and its own ways to tell and explain. You didn't understand what I meant by saying that we (Italians) have a larger vocabulary than yours but I surely can't explain it better in a language that's not mine. As for the influences, don't forget that practically everyone conquered and ruled Italy, with the exception of the Greeks, even though the Romans stoled their whole culture and made it look like original.
Fair enough.
A proposito, da dove vieni in Italia? Abitavo a Bologna durante l'estate 2004-- per studiare la lingua, sopratutto, ma anche per godere la moda della vita-- pero' sfortunatamente sto dimenticando la lingua adesso (sono quasi due anni che non ho preso una lezione nell'italiano).
And after that, well, the game was mine.
-- Francis Begbie
Now I don't know if I have to answer in english or in italian... :-)
First of all, your italian is almost perfect, complimenti! I'm from Milan, I've always lived here and I've never been to Bologna, which is too bad because I know it's a beautiful city. If you ever decide to come back here let me know, I like to show the beauty of my city to strangers. And you? Where are you from? I wish I could come to the USA, but right now I'm stuck in my studying, and I'm taking it very, very long.
For the records, I really liked chatting with you.
Grazie, ma e' chiaro che tu parli l'inglese meglio che io parlo l'italiano... per quanti anni l'hai studiato? Ci sono pochissimi errori nelle tue frasi.
Comunque, il mio nome e' Michele e vengo dallo stato di Maryland negli Stati Uniti-- abito adesso nella citta' in cui sono nato (sono ritornato qui dopo mi sono laureato dall'universita' a Rhode Island). Ma mi muovero' a una vera citta'-- Baltimore-- in Novembre, e poi devo cominciare a lavorare per un giornale a Washington, D.C.
Vorrei tornare in Italia presto come possibile. Mi mancano certe cose della moda della vita la' (specificamente il cibo e il vino, e ovviamente mi piacciono le regazze italiane da morire!). Se posso tornare, ti dico e dovremo incontrarci a Milano!
And after that, well, the game was mine.
-- Francis Begbie
Hey Michael, check out your private messages...
share[deleted]
You said that correctly! Your italian is very good, I hope my english is not too disgusting... Have you ever been to Milan? My father is from Foggia, the south of Italy is so beautiful, every time I go there and then come back to Milan I cry and I scream, I can't stand to live in a city so far from the sea! Now it's a lot of time that I don't go there, hope I will soon, I miss everything from there.
I hope you liked Italy, and I hope the people left good memories in you...
Maybe I should have written in italian, I'm always afraid of misunderstandings...
A presto!
Silvia
[deleted]
La Puglia è una delle poste più belle nel mondo, sicuramente. Ci sono stata, a Foggia e la peninsola Gargano, ma purtroppo molto brevemente, perchè studiavo a Ferrara e doveva tornare per dare un'esame. Ma vorrei veramente tornarci un giorno!
Ho appena visto questo film...che bello, mi faceva piangere alla fine. Adesso mi manca l'Italia ancora di più!
I know english speaking professors always say your dictionary has the largest numer of words. The explanation is quite easy: you keep on considering english vocabula wich are no longer used and you have ancient words with exactly the same meaning of the modern ones. An example: you say "Storm", but on the dictionary you'll also find "tempest", which is no longer used. I guess the numer of terms you actually utilize is quite little. Plus, english is by far the easiest european language. I am italian, I speak french and, as many people from my country, I studied latin and ancient greek in high school: well, let me say english has almost no grammer and sintaxis which makes it very easy to be learnt. And that's good. By the way, what's this thing we need more italian words to express a concept you can say with just one? Please make me an example; I can't think of any.
p.s. we all know english 'couse after world war II western europe, japan, and most part of the world came under american economic/political/military control: from this influence comes your cultural supremacy, like it has always benn in history.
Actually, it's a trade off. English has relatively little morphology (changes to word forms) and this is especially notable when you compare, say, Romance-language verbs and English verbs, or Slavic noun & adjective declensions with those of English. On the other hand, English rules of syntax (the order in which words are combined) are generally stricter than these other languages for the simple reason that with less difference in morphology, the form of a word carries less information on its function that is the case for languages with more complex morphology.
shareSo I am right when I say you don't need more words in italian than in english to express the same concept...
shareYou're obviously nationalistic and borderline racist...and pretty close minded....I don't like english that much either but some languages make us "sick" just because we associate them with something else (like myself with german) or we are not used to them. Try to expose yourself to other sounds and languages.
shareEnglish is no the language with the largest vocabulary. Greek has 2.4 million words while the most complete english dictionary has about half a million. Moreover, the question which language is the richest, is void by definition. There are languages (like greek and arabic) where you can construct any word in order to describe anything, using prefixes, suffixes and subjects that are native to this language and can be understood by anyone. E.g. how many englih speakers could understand what cacography, epilogy or pseydomantes mean? They are all words I just made up, but would make perfect sense in any greek speaker.
As for poetry and sound, I speak 7 languages and personally I find italian from the north and russian from the west the best sounding languages I have heard of. Brazilian portugese from the coast come really close. As for poetry I think greek and spanish are the most expressive and powerfull (french is not bad either)
I agree with the top poster that Italian sounds wonderful, such a musical cadence. As a native Englishman I sometimes wonder how English sounds to others. All the well known non-latin languages (German, Japanese, Russian, French, Swedish etc.) have a recognisable flow and signature. Has my native tongue a certain something that makes others listen? I guess I'll never know. Beautiful film nonetheless.
shareSono andato a Trieste...fa un'anno... E veramente, la xe una bel' citta'. ;)
For the amateur linguists in the bunch, let's agree to the fact that everyone is able to express their thoughts in almost all of the worlds natural languages. Aesthetic judgements are purely personal and subjective, and thus almost worthless. If you like a language and think it is beautiful, that is wonderful for you, but it is hardly worth fighting over. It is based purely on inclination and culture.
Secondly, let's forget this nonsense about some language being the "best" for communicating. One can express oneself differently but not qualitatively better or worse in Italian, Greek, English, Chinese, Arabic, Swahili et cetera.
The only qualitative judgments we can really make about languages that go beyond individual subjectivity (and perhaps, even this is wrong and lies in my own opinions) is in the area where we see that people are learning fewer and fewer words with which to express themselves. However, what makes a word? Is it the space? Where's the true difference between "high-class ho" and "courtesan"?
Anyone find this thread a wee bit ironic? I mean, the film is using poetry written by a Chilean poet, so even the film's poems are translations, and I don't care what language you translate, poetry ALWAYS loses something in translation. Sorry, I just had to note on the irony of an English vs. Italian debate when the source material for the movie (novel and poems) were in Spanish. No offense!
sharetwinextralong I think you're absolutely right, we kinda fell off the wagon.
shareI absolutely agree...and that is why this film made me wanna learn spanish, which I did in order to read Neruda from the original. This made me love him a lot more.
However, I do not think all languages are "equal". I speak 7 and I can read and understand a few more and allow me to say that some languages are extremely flexible and expressive. In some of them you can create new words with a meaning that any native speak can understand; and just to show you what I mean, try and understand the word "microcephalus". Yes maybe a good english speaker will get it because he knows that micro means small in greek and cephalus means head also in greek. But by merely speaking english you can't get the meaning and you can't create a word that means little head. This can be extended to more complicated meanings.
I agree, languages are not equal... but often unequal does not necessarily mean better or worse. Mark Twain could only have been Mark Twain in English, for example. Neruda could only have been Neruda in Spanish. The differences definitely are there, but each language will have those who learn to use it to its fullest and elevate it to something transcendent.
P.S. I love English (it's my native tongue)... I love Spanish (it's my future career and current field of study)... and I love Italian (I'm learning it now just because)...
American English is my native language but I also speak French, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish. For the initial comments of this thread my own opinion for the most beautiful-sounding of those languages are French, (Brazilian) Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, and then English. I love the Spanish of Spain and South America but not of Mexico and Central America -- it is not flowing; it is too choppy and abrupt and reminds me of the same sounds produced in Tagalog. (I'll say here I have an advanced degree in Linguistics so I have studied many more languages than I actually speak.)
Portuguese and Italian can usually be understood by either speaker; not so much Portuguese and Spanish as many assume. Spoken Portuguese can also sound similar to spoken Greek.
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From a previous poster: "However, the average English speaker (especially Americans, in my opinion) does not use hardly any of them."
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Here is irony: the writer is discussing the use of the English language, but in a grammatically-incorect sentence! "Does not use hardly use any" is a double-negative, which does not exist in English (though it certainly exists in other languages). It should read: "hardly uses any of them" . If we are discussing the destruction of English (or any other language) we must keep in mind we do not write the way we speak!
Linda, actually, it is easier for Spanish and Italian speakers to understand each other verbally, than for Portuguese and Italian speakers to understand each other, or Portuguese and Spanish speakers as you say.
But written Portuguese is quite comprehensible for a Spanish speaker.
It is rare for someone to say they like the Spanish of BOTH Spain and South America, but not Mexico and Central America. Mexican Spanish is quite mellifluous, and every syllable is pronounced clearly.
As for the similarity with Tagalog, well, the Philippines was ruled by Spain through the viceroy of Mexico for many centuries, and there was lots of intermingling of peoples and cultures through the cross-Pacific Galleon Trade between Manila and Acapulco. But let me tell you, I speak both Tagalog and Spanish (I am Spanish-Filipino) and the sounds are NOT really that similar as you say. But alright, when some Filipinos speak English, it does sound for many like resembling a Mexican accent.
Thanks for your comments!
It's rather odd for someone who has "an advanced degree in Linguistics" to then say that the double negative "does not exist in English". Didn't they cover the part about prescriptive versus descriptive linguistics in any of the classes or readings for your advanced degree? Both prescription and description can be an important part of a linguistic inquiry, but it's good to be careful about how we use each. It's certainly incorrect to say that the double negative "does not exist in English". Exist it does, and it's a potent marker of stigmatized varities of English for most educated speech communities.
Also a bit odd to see someone with such a degree capitalizing "Linguistics", which really ought to be done in careful English writing only when refering to the department, not to the field. And odd to see "grammtically-incorrect sentence"; the hyphen, in carefully edited English, ought to be used in adverb-adjective compounds before nouns only when the adverb does not end in an -ly.
Portuguese and Italian can usually be understood by either speaker; not so much Portuguese and Spanish as many assume. Spoken Portuguese can also sound similar to spoken Greek.
I second that (well, the first part at least). especially when it's written. sometimes, when I stumble across some portuguese text I find it really amusing that I can read it and understand it almost completely without having never been in any portuguese-speaking nation nor having attended to one single portuguese lesson.
anyway, very interesting topic here.
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oh, and p.s., just a provocation I'd like to throw:
there are some, among whom there was me some time ago, who says "good for americans, they don't really need to learn another language". well, today I think that "having" to learn another language doesn't really put you in a state of subordination, but quite the contrary: once you have learned another language you know more about another culture, you know at least 2 languages (and me being italian, I even have my own regional dialect -which by the way is something very different from the american local spoken language-, I kinda easily learned even french and I could quite easily learn spanish) where the "dominant world language speaker" almost always can't really say a single word of another language. well, I think that he is the one who's missing something, not me.
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(I'll say here I have an advanced degree in Linguistics so I have studied many more languages than I actually speak.
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Here is irony: the writer is discussing the use of the English language, but in a grammatically-incorect sentence! "Does not use hardly use any" is a double-negative, which does not exist in English (though it certainly exists in other languages). It should read: "hardly uses any of them" . If we are discussing the destruction of English (or any other language) we must keep in mind we do not write the way we speak!
I very much doubt you have nay advanced degrees at all. Double negatives "exist" aplenty in English and are perfectly valid in many cases.
In English -- and in other languages their usage can be wrong, just as in English and other languages they are proper uses for certain expressions share
In fact there is an English word for microcephalus, and it's pinhead. Clear for English speakers and fully expressive. Also, given the historical importance of Greek- and Latin-derived words for intellectual purposes, coinages such as "pinhead" in Engish often have insulting, humorous or informal connotations, and "pinhead" is no exception.
Gryspnik, you keep trying to show the superiority of the Greek language by citing GREEK words and then saying that only a few English speakers would understand them. But of course, because they're Greek words. And for a Greek speaker to understand "pinhead", he'd have to understand what "pin" means and what "head" means.
There are a whole series of English words derived from native roots for parts of the body or for animals which have an expressive power different from that of those derived from Latin-Greek roots and used in more formal contexts. Think of the differences in denotation and connotation between the two words in the following pairs: nosy/nasal, toothy/dental, skinny/dermal, bloody/sangunary, homey/domestic, fishy/piscine, earthy/chthonic.
Does any of this prove the greater expressiveness and flexibility of English? Of course not, but it does show that English, like many languages which have relied on a foreign language to create specialize vocabulary, will have a system of meaning differences based on the contrast between native- and foreign-derived words.
OK, I'm not a native English speaker. It's my second language. But, just for the fun...
There are a whole series of English words derived from native roots for parts of the body or for animals...
taking that into account, what is the origin of the word "butterfly"?. Translated literally into Spanish is pretty funny...
Friends are the family that we choose share
Excuse me but the examples you give are rather silly for proving your point. You chose Greek-dervied words (cacography, epilogy or pseydomantes) and then challenged English speakers: "How many of you know these words that any Greek speaker would know?" Of course they know these words: they're GREEK. This is as silly as saying "How many Greek speakers would understand bookeater, endzoning or lovefaker--words I just made up--even though English speakers would understand them." Of course English speakers would understand these: they're English.
It is true that Greek has greater flexibility in stringing separate words together and then treating them as a single word (as do German and Sanskrit) but this is by no means a sign of linguistic superiority. English conventions allow similar strings but generally calls for spaces between words. It's not at all clear that a langauge which would write "backdoorguard" rather than "back door guard" is inherently superior.
Sanskrit is the oldest and the most pure language
sharesudhanshuroy1985-2 do you have any impartial evidence for this claim? The oldest texts in Sanskrit are not more than 2,500 years old. The Vedas probably contain language that is another 500 years old. Sumerian records exist that are at least 5,000 years old.
No language is pure. All languages involve a history of mixture and variation. Sanskrit words with retroflex consonants are mostly due to borrowings from Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic (Munda) languages.
This whole notion of "pure" is something insecure people love to talk about: pure languages, pure women, pure this, pure that. It's not a terribly interesting or accurate concept.
Greek is at least 1,000 years older than Sanskrit.
And the is no such thing as a "purer" language. Languages constantly evolve -- or disappear
As for your romantic languages... Romanian is also a 'romance' language... and while I'm not sure how it sounds (not a whole lot of Romanian being bandied about out there), I'd be willing to bet it's at least as naturally mellifluous as Portuguese, which to be honest sounds a lot like Russian at times (what with all the "zh" sound).
Your right Michael, the Romanian language is a "romance" language because it's latin. Italian is probably the closest language to it in terms of sound. You are also right that it has Russian influences because of our history. People are often surprised that Romania is a latin country because of this, mostly due to the fact that we say "da" for "yes" (the same as in Russian).
In terms of sound and poetic beauty I think French is the winner in my book.
People people people! Pick whatever language you want for your favorite and remember that it is ONLY a language, not a PERSONALITY! Of course languages like Italian are prettier and more romantic than English, but don't frown on people for using abbreviations. What's wrong with getting to the point? Isn't life too short already anyway?
shareChinese can be ambiguous by omitting subjects, hence it lends to open interpretations/translations in poetry.
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