MovieChat Forums > I.Q. (1994) Discussion > What's the theory Meg Ryan mentions...

What's the theory Meg Ryan mentions...


...when she and Tim Robbins are going to dance by the juke box, but she says she'll never be able to reach him?

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It's one of Zeno's paradoxes.

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something like.. you always always have to take half a step before you got a whole step and than you first need to take another half step... and because you always have to take a half step first, you will never get to where you want to go...



what was the thing that was said about time didn't exist...? it was something with the past.. and the future...but I can't remember what it was exactly...

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The quote about time was, "Can you tell me exactly what time it is now?" "No you can't, because by the time you tell me, the future has already become the past, which means there is no present. Therefore time cannot exist!"

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thank you:)

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  I've come across a few different variations, but this will give you the idea:

  You can never get from point A to point B, because before you get to point B, you have to get halfway there.  And before you get to that halfway point, you have to get halfway to it.  And before you can get to that point, you have to get half way to it.  You have to go through an infinite number of “half way theres” to get to where you are going, and you have to do it in a finite amount of time.  Impossible.

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[deleted]

However, one cannot add together an infinite series of variables, nor an infinite series of anything, let alone arrive at a finite sum.
The previous post also presupposes the concept that taking a step half the distance of another takes half the time expended to complete the full step, and pacing off one half the distance of the half step takes half of that time, ad infinitum, which I don't believe is empirically true.

A paradox, by definition, is outside the realm of common sense.

As ever,
--doc--

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
-- Philip K. Dick

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Actually, calculating the sum of infinite series of numbers are quite common in mathematics, and the series can very well have a finite sum. If you have ever integrated a function to calculate the area under the curve between two points, you have calculated the sum of an infinite series of numbers yourself.

Anyway, regarding this paradox: Lets say you want to travel a distance of two meters (or yards, or feet, or whatever other distance you may choose). To travel two meters, you first must travel one meter. To travel one meter, you have to travel half a meter first. To travel half a meter, you must travel a quarter of a meter first, and so on. Therefore, in order to travel 2 meter, you travel these distances (in meters) first:1 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.125 + ...But this can be written in another way:1 + (1-0.5) + (0.5-0.25) + (0.25-0.125) + ...The values inside the paranthesis correspond to the values in the series above.
Notice that the second number within a paranthesis (e.g. -0.5 in the first paranthesis) is equal but with opposite sign as the first number in the next paranthesis (0.5 in the second paranthesis, in this case). Removing the paranthesis, the series could again be rewritten as1+1 -0.5+0.5 -0.25+0.25 -0.125+...Except for the first two numbers, every negative number is cancelled out by the following positive number, and 1+1 are the only numbers left. Therefore, the sum converge to the sum 1+1=2 as is expected. It is, after all, possible to walk two meters...

One can also notice that the travelling speed does not enter the calculation above. It is not even required that the speed is the same during the travelling. Of course, if you want to travel the distance in a finit amount of time, you would have to have a speed that does not become infinitely small... If the speed is constant, it can be shown using the same arguments as above that the time required to travel the distance equals the distance divided by the speed.

, , or ?

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We are going far astray of a Meg Ryan/Tom Robbins film, but, I suppose it does resonate with the setting and characters of the film, and is, in fact, an extrapolation of a response to a legitimate movie question.
As a caveat, I dabble in particle- and astrophysics, but I have never spent much more quality time with mathematics than necessary, so I apologize if any of the terminology is misused. The mathematical logic of my arguments I believe to be sound.

a) In order to find the area of a curved surface, or section thereof, one must use 'pi', which is a non-finite number, therefore, any result is an estimation of an infinite number, its closeness to accuracy depending upon to which number of decimal points 'pi' has been rounded off.

b) I agree that, using 2 metres as the full distance, the problem as stated in the paradox can written as such:

1 + 0.5 + 0.25 + 0.125 + ...

(remembering that '...' [and so on], in this case means 'to infinity').
It could be written, as you have in your post, in the following manner, leaving the formula intact, with the results of the expressions within the parentheses being equal to the numbers in the original sequence:

1 + (1-0.5) + (0.5-0.25) + (0.25-0.125) + ...

If one wished, the sequence could just as accurately be written thus:

1 + (562-561.5) + (0.2+0.05) + (1/8) + ...

In removing the parentheses, you are changing the values, thus changing the formula. In grouping the numbers as you have:

1+1 -0.5+0.5 -0.25+0.25 -0.125+...

you have changed the values in the problem, thus invalidating your thesis.
There can be no second 'one' to add to the original 'one'. If all the numbers following the original 'one' could be added together, the sum would be less than 'one'. This solution may look good on a blackboard, but it is not representative of the original series of numbers in the problem.
It can be proven, mathematically, that one = zero. It is common sense that one does not equal zero, but that is exactly what makes a paradox.

c) The only reason I mentioned speed in my post was in response to the previous post.

As ever,
--doc--

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true science."
--Albert Einstein

"It is in the admission of ignorance and the admission of uncertainty that there is a hope for the continuous motion of human beings in some direction that doesn't get confined, permanently blocked, as it has so many times before in various periods in the history of man."
--Richard P. Feynman, "The Meaning of It All"

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Your reasoning is incorrect. If you look at the series, it actually can be expressed as a geometric series of r = 1/2.


Example:

(1/2^0) + (1/2^0) + (1/2^0) + (1/2^0) + (1/2^0) + (1/2^0) + ....

or

1+ (Sum n=1 -> inf) (1/2)^(n-1)

Note that I am taking out the first term before hand the reason for which will be made clear below.

Which is an infinite geometric series which is defined as:

(Sum n=1 -> inf) ar^(n-1) = a/(1-r)

So plugging in the values for a and r, the sum of the series is

1/(1-(1/2)) = 1

thus:

1 + 1 = 2

You can also set this series up as a limit where n-> infinity and solving it will give you the same answer.

TobiasPersson is correct in that if you make an infinite number of half journeys, then in the end, you will reach the full length.

Limits form the foundation of calculus, it would be foolish to dismiss it as a mathematical ploy, as is the claim that accepting an approximation of pi for applications, devalues the mathematical necessity of an infinitely long pi.

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Are we in Physics on line?

CUTE movie and WHO CARES Abot the half steps..SHE made it to Ed!

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could someone please explain this to me in a way that i would understand??

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Don't think it's able to be explained in laymans terms better than the way the movie explains it and how it's typed out. It is a simple mathamatical principal commonly seen with function equations, where when you look at the graph it's contained to a single quadrant, never actually hits the zero point, always just right above that 0 line on the x or y axis.

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I think a better question would be... why are two physicist types lurking around on a "C" movie forum??


The movie's premis was good, however, flow of the movie was horrible. I almost got whiplash when they were on the boat and she makes the discovery "I LOVE YOU". after trying to "let him down". And Uncle Albert wasnt even jerking my rudder around!


Even with suspended disbelief fully operational, this movie was a difficult pill to swallow. enjoyable but difficult

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TobiasPerson is absolutely write and none of the posts made by docwrite make any sense. Furthermore, finding the sum of infinite series is a very, very, very commmon task in math and (correct me if i'm wrong) i'm pretty sure any series that is proven to be convergent has a sum which can be determined (there may be some axiomatic Godelesque theory that says there is an infinite number of convergent series for which a solution cannot be determined but if there is it hardly applied since the series 1 + 0.5 + 0.25... most definetly is convergent and has a very obvious sum). Finally, zeno's paradox is hardly 'advanced physics' so much as grade 10 math.

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I think the most ridiculous thing, is for this paradox to survive, it requires the belief that you can only cover half the distance. When I heard this "theory" I thought it had nothing to do with reality or common (or unusual) sense.

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Zeno's arguments about motion, which cause so much disquietude to those who try to solve the problems that they present, are four in number. The first asserts the non-existence of motion on the ground that that which is in locomotion must arrive at the half-way stage before it arrives at the goal. This we have discussed above.

Aristotle: Physics; Book 6, Part 9
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/physics.6.vi.html

Moreover, the current popular arguments make it plain that, if time is continuous, magnitude is continuous also, inasmuch as a thing asses over half a given magnitude in half the time taken to cover the whole: in fact without qualification it passes over a less magnitude in less time; for the divisions of time and of magnitude will be the same. And if either is infinite, so is the other, and the one is so in the same way as the other; i.e. if time is infinite in respect of its extremities, length is also infinite in respect of its extremities: if time is infinite in respect of divisibility, length is also infinite in respect of divisibility: and if time is infinite in both respects, magnitude is also infinite in both respects.

Hence Zeno's argument makes a false assumption in asserting that it is impossible for a thing to pass over or severally to come in contact with infinite things in a finite time. For there are two senses in which length and time and generally anything continuous are called 'infinite': they are called so either in respect of divisibility or in respect of their extremities. So while a thing in a finite time cannot come in contact with things quantitatively infinite, it can come in contact with things infinite in respect of divisibility: for in this sense the time itself is also infinite: and so we find that the time occupied by the passage over the infinite is not a finite but an infinite time, and the contact with the infinites is made by means of moments not finite but infinite in number.

The passage over the infinite, then, cannot occupy a finite time, and the passage over the finite cannot occupy an infinite time: if the time is infinite the magnitude must be infinite also, and if the magnitude is infinite, so also is the time. This may be shown as follows. Let AB be a finite magnitude, and let us suppose that it is traversed in infinite time G, and let a finite period GD of the time be taken. Now in this period the thing in motion will pass over a certain segment of the magnitude: let BE be the segment that it has thus passed over. (This will be either an exact measure of AB or less or greater than an exact measure: it makes no difference which it is.) Then, since a magnitude equal to BE will always be passed over in an equal time, and BE measures the whole magnitude, the whole time occupied in passing over AB will be finite: for it will be divisible into periods equal in number to the segments into which the magnitude is divisible. Moreover, if it is the case that infinite time is not occupied in passing over every magnitude, but it is possible to ass over some magnitude, say BE, in a finite time, and if this BE measures the whole of which it is a part, and if an equal magnitude is passed over in an equal time, then it follows that the time like the magnitude is finite. That infinite time will not be occupied in passing over BE is evident if the time be taken as limited in one direction: for as the part will be passed over in less time than the whole, the time occupied in traversing this part must be finite, the limit in one direction being given. The same reasoning will also show the falsity of the assumption that infinite length can be traversed in a finite time. It is evident, then, from what has been said that neither a line nor a surface nor in fact anything continuous can be indivisible.

This conclusion follows not only from the present argument but from the consideration that the opposite assumption implies the divisibility of the indivisible. For since the distinction of quicker and slower may apply to motions occupying any period of time and in an equal time the quicker passes over a greater length, it may happen that it will pass over a length twice, or one and a half times, as great as that passed over by the slower: for their respective velocities may stand to one another in this proportion. Suppose, then, that the quicker has in the same time been carried over a length one and a half times as great as that traversed by the slower, and that the respective magnitudes are divided, that of the quicker, the magnitude ABGD, into three indivisibles, and that of the slower into the two indivisibles EZ, ZH. Then the time may also be divided into three indivisibles, for an equal magnitude will be passed over in an equal time. Suppose then that it is thus divided into KL, Lm, MN. Again, since in the same time the slower has been carried over Ez, ZH, the time may also be similarly divided into two. Thus the indivisible will be divisible, and that which has no parts will be passed over not in an indivisible but in a greater time. It is evident, therefore, that nothing continuous is without parts.

Phyisics Book 6, Part 2

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OMG! Thank GOD you ppl are around! I have to write a paper about this thing for Math and up until now I had NO IDEA what it was!
Thanx!
Scribble

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[deleted]

My reasoning about the infinite series is correct, as others have already noted.

Regarding the "proofs" that one=zero mentioned by docwrite, they are flawed. It was some years ago since I saw one of these "proofs" but if I remember correctly somewhere along the line they make an illegal assumption and loose sign information or divides by zero.

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"You can never get from point A to point B, because before you get to point B, you have to get halfway there. And before you get to that halfway point, you have to get halfway to it. And before you can get to that point, you have to get half way to it. You have to go through an infinite number of “half way theres” to get to where you are going, and you have to do it in a finite amount of time. Impossible."

I understand the reasoning that because of this, Meg Ryan in theory may never reach Tim Robbins as she will always be in a stage of being half-way there.

But then Tim Robbins ultimately met her half-way : >

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I think everyone is missing the point....nobody can explain it...THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED A PARADOX!!!! And the whole thing is based on infinatesimals...which after a certain point, humans have no comprehension.

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The Racetrack (or Dichotomy)

One can never reach the end of a racecourse, for in order to do so one would first have to reach the halfway mark, then the halfway mark of the remaining half, then the halfway mark of the final fourth, then of the final eighth, and so on ad infinitum. Since this series of fractions is infinite, one can never hope to get through the entire length of the track (at least not in a finite time).

Start ____________________1/2__________3/4_____7/8__15/16... Finnish


But things get even worse than this. Just as one cannot reach the end of the racecourse, one cannot even begin to run. For before one could reach the halfway point, one would have to reach the 1/4 mark, and before that the 1/8 mark, etc., etc. As there is no first point in this series, one can never really get started (this is known as the Reverse Dichotomy).

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In Western thought it is called a paradox. Zen calls it a koan. In both cases, it marks the point at which our "reason" stops working adequately in terms of making sense of our experience. In the case of Zeno's koan, abstract mathematics fails of to fully re-present the human perception of reality. Which, to close the loop, is the irony under Meg's line in the first place. In spite of what her fomal logic tells her about the impossibility of reaching anybody, life tells her she can!

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While you obviously understand that Zeno's Paradox is one of the central themes in the film, I disagree with the way you resolve it in saying that 'But then Tim Robbins ultimately met her half-way'.

More accurately, I would say that it's used even more intelligently than that, in that, first of all, Zeno's Paradox only applies in theory. In theory, I can't ever get the cookie sitting on the counter next to me, because my hand has to travel half the distance, half that distance, half that distance, ad infinitum. In reality, that cookie has been in my digestive tract and helping to enlarge the size of my tuckis for thirty seconds now, because the theory applies to reality in no conceivable way.

This is the same thing that happens in the movie. Meg Ryan, so long as she is completely locked in her own mind, cannot complete the distance between herself and Tim Robbins. It's only once she stops thinking with her head and starts thinking with her heart, as Uncle Albert puts it--ie. stops trusting in theoretical nonsense and relies instead on the basic instinctual knowledge that can't be confused by that theoretical nonsense--that she is able to overcome the paradox itself and be united with the man she (also instinctively) loves.

God, I love being an English major. Whether put there intentionally or not, finding this kind of stuff is fascinating.

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It's a bunch of pedantic charlatranry academics use to keep you befuddled and make you think they're worth the money the educational venue wastes on them.

Eschew obfuscation.

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As I understand it, Zeno's paradox was originally told as a myth-like story where the tortoise challenges Achilles to a race wherein the tortoise is given a head start and then Achilles will never be able to catch him.

Life, every now and then, behaves as though it had seen too many bad movies

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