Pingatore Has the Last Laugh - Hoop Dreams (1994) Discussion

[–] spiritualtoenail 19 years ago

the difference being that they were making a documentary based on kids from the projects who had the ability to make it to the nba, and their struggles with trying to reach that goal. which is why they picked two boys who had that potential. why would they pick two who didn't, or who had no drive? it would make for a pretty boring film to watch, especially since we'd all know what would happen in the end. if the filmmakers didn't care about winning what? they're not playing a game. they had no idea how this documentary was going to pan out.

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[–] Hippo9 19 years ago

No, the filmmakers are hyproctical. If you listen to the audio commentary they rag on Pingatore for only caring about winning and not the kids.

1. Pingatore has a high graduation rate for these underprivileged kids. Pingatore gets these kids in college.

2. Pingatore is a task master like Bobby Knight and the esteemed Coach Cater.
As Coach Cater has shown some of these kids need the discipline so that they can succeed.

At the same time the filmakers say how they did this purely out of love and not for financial gain in the audio commentary. This is furthest from the truth. The filmmakers were hoping that the kids would succeed because it would make for a better story, which would lead to film success and notoriety and fame. This is exactly what happened to them, they made money, they were able to subsequently direct and produce Hollywood Films like Prefontaine. They cashed in big time off the kids.

1. In the Audio Commentary Arthur Agee was really pissed at the Filmmakers for filming them when the electiricty was turned off at the house. The Filmakers had lighing for the camera crew but wouldn't pay the electric bill or use the battery generator to light the house.

Like I said, these dorky filmmaker guys are no better or no worse than Pingatore, and it's disingenuous for them to believe that they are upright guys when they are trashing Pingatore, the Coach who let them film practice and the team in the first place.

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[–] maxfischar 19 years ago

Did you hear what Pingatore says about William at the end of the film?

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[–] Hippo9 19 years ago

Which part?
Pingatore says alot of stuff in the film. He gets as much screen time as either William or Arthur.

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[–] tvdij 19 years ago

When he talks about Williams career, which included coming back from 2 knee surgeries, being #1 all time in 3 pt shots made and 3 pt % and being #2 all time scoring at St. Joesph's, he says that William has had an OK or GOOD (i don't remember which) career, but that he didn't have a great career. William expresses some anger about this in the Criterion DVD commentary.

Also, in the Criterion DVD commentary, The filmmakers say they eventually helped the Agees turn the lights back on, but as documentary film makers, trying not to intervene TOO much with the families' life is important or it would put the integrity of their own work at risk.

One of the filmmakers, actually complements pingatore as well. Another is not so kind.

p.s. did you see the latest PRIDE event? Shogun vs. Little NOG rocked

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[–] stonesthrow2002 19 years ago

what did he say?

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[–] Hippo9 19 years ago

I've seen clips of the CroCop v. Ibraghim
Big Nog vs. Pastula
and
Igor vs. Overeem fights.

Still haven't seen Lil Nog vs. Shogun. I've heard that fight was a war.

Final Conflict in August with Cop vs. Fedor and the MW GP should be (and I rarely say this becuase people say this for every event) The best event ever.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] patgotee 18 years ago

I couldnt have said that better myslef. The quote "another one goes out the door, another one comes in, that's how it goes in this business", when I heard that I wanted to slap the hell out of that guy. What a jackass. He is some guy who got lucky and had Isiah Thomas play for his school, thats it, he is gonna ride those coattails till the day he dies. A hoirrible person.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] stoscarthegreat 18 years ago

The problem with complaining about the coach is that it is his job description to win games. My guess is he's getting a handsome salary to coach the team, people are paying for players to go to the school, and his job is on the line every season if the team doesn't make win enough. The kind of emphasis on basketball we saw wasn't good for Gates but it can be great for a lot of players.

Remember that as cold as he could seem, his success set the way for Gates to get a full ride at a catholic school in an affluent Chicago suburb, along with the knowledge that he would be scouted and with success would get another free ride to a college.

The job of mentoring and teaching belongs to the teachers and guidance counselors at St. Joe's and I'm sure that there were a lot of quality people in those positions.

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[–] tyurbrner 18 years ago

"Remember that as cold as he could seem, his success set the way for Gates to get a full ride at a catholic school in an affluent Chicago suburb, along with the knowledge that he would be scouted and with success would get another free ride to a college."

yep, and he is the one that shut down arthur, because he didn't think arthur had the talent.

so actually it was arthur who had the last laugh because he went to the big house, and pingatore did not.

and william had the talent to go to a good college on scholarship without pingatore.

>> An armadillo could be a
better president than Bush. <<

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[–] mlentricchia 16 years ago

I couldnt have said that better myslef. The quote "another one goes out the door, another one comes in, that's how it goes in this business", when I heard that I wanted to slap the hell out of that guy. What a jackass. He is some guy who got lucky and had Isiah Thomas play for his school, thats it, he is gonna ride those coattails till the day he dies. A hoirrible person.

That's pretty harsh. Realistically, how much involvement do you really want a coach taking in the lives of his athletes? His job is to coach them in basketball, period, the dude has his own life and his own problems, he can't take responsibility for every student that he coaches.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] tyurbrner 18 years ago

you are telling lies.

are you pingatore?

his assistant?

stop telling lies.

>> An armadillo could be a
better president than Bush. <<

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[–] tom40 17 years ago

My understanding is that they did pay the electric bill

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[–] objesguy 17 years ago

high graduation rate?

This isn't college pal, this is high school. High school kids have to graduate, and at a school like St. Joe's as long as they're good in basketball, the counselors will do whatever takes for them to graduate. So really...pingatore isn't the one getting them to graduate, it's the counselors, the teachers, the faculty. Why is it when we talk about graduation rates we always have to mention the coach? He has limits on how much he can coach them. How is he really getting them better grades.

And for that last comment, i'm sure Steve James and crew wanted to see a lot of great things out of pingatore when they first started filming, but once you see it, you see that Pingatore is a blowhard who somewhat cares about the kids, but doesn't bring em up the right way. Besides, he's not a good coach either. With all that talent, he doesn't doo much other than yell at them like crazy when they mess up. Check out the Marshall coach. Now he's a good coach.

Specifically, to show how good of a coach he is, look after Arthur gets the ball stolen from him. Arthur sits on the bench and the coach tells him, not really yelling at him, but not being nice either, that he's dribbling the ball too high. He's not protecting the ball. Arthur then goes in there and corrects his mistake, and they win the game.

What would pingatore do? He'd yell at him and call him an idiot and then he'd make the same turnover because he wasn't recognizing what he was doing wrong.

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[–] mgibbons-3 18 years ago

<i>It was kind of ironic how the filmmakers kept saying how Pingatore was only about winnning, when the filmmakers themselves specifically picked kids who had the potential to become basketball superstars. If the filmmakers didn't care about winning they would have just chosen average kids. So their shot at Pingatore was pretty disingenuous)</i>

Wow. You totally missed the whole point of the film.

I'll make it clear for you...by having two good players, you see the inherent leeching and evils that come with it. You have the brother who lives through his little bro. You have the deadbeat Dad trying to reconnect. And so on.

You also get the unsavory Coach Ping.

Would anyone want to see how average players are like us average ppl. Get a few points in a game, but their social lives are unchanged. No one would care.

And it's not irony that you write of. The context doesn't make sense.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] tyurbrner 18 years ago

they picked kids that had a chance, but that is all.

they did not want them to make it all the way to the nba, because the film is about misplaced hope and all the pressure put on young boys.

>> An armadillo could be a
better president than Bush. <<

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[–] tyurbrner 18 years ago

"(It was kind of ironic how the filmmakers kept saying how Pingatore was only about winnning, when the filmmakers themselves specifically picked kids who had the potential to become basketball superstars."

wrong. the producers did not want the boys to make it to the nba.

pingatore is the dork.

>> An armadillo could be a
better president than Bush. <<

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[–] tjer4003 18 years ago

Here one very grimey part of the story. William's family got helped out with tuition when they needed it. Arthur on the other hand, who initially didn't show the same talent as William, got no help when his parents lost their jobs and couldn't pay. The fact that William showed promise as a player and got financial help from a booster while Arthur struggled and received no help, shows that St. Joe's were interested in these kids strictly for their basketball talent. You could say that the school and the coach are made to look bad, but they make themselves look bad.

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] mgoldsmith 17 years ago

And... to add insult to injury, he happened to look and act like Tony Clifton.

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[–] dianying88888 17 years ago

I made the following post several years back to someone who said they were Pingatore's cousin, i would be curious to hear their response to my question,

luckyboots,

coach pingatore makes a comment at the end of the film after one of his last interactions with william, they discuss how things didn;t quite work out in terms of basketball success for him and the team, and when william leaves, coach pingatore says something to the extent of "there goes one out the door another will come in, thats how it is" (not exact)

i wonder if you can get him to clarify, one could easily assume that he is implying that the kids he coaches are simply basketball players that cycle through, w/o any personal importance (unless you make it to the nba)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110057/board/flat/8741263?d=14992770#14992770

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[–] ghetarr2001 17 years ago

Pingatore is a Terrible person. I just watched it right now for the first time since it was on the Sundance Channel thank god. What an amazing documentary. The line that sums it up is when William is talking about a time when he asked advice from Pingatore about his personal life and how his baby's mothers family has been down on him. All the coach could offer to him was forget about them. William was clearly lucky to play basketball and get a scholarship, but the fact that his coach was that scumbag Pingatore probably killed his chances of making it farther, he lost his love for the game because of how bad a coach he is/was.

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[–] cabal24 17 years ago

I don't know him at all so I don't know how bad (or good)of a guy he really is. But in the film he said a few things that looked really bad.

Now, it is possible they could have edited to make thing seem different than they really were. But inthe movie, he did not seem to care about those kids as people. When William had his baby troubles, Ping says "Write them off...". When he had troubles with the ACT, he tells William to see Mrs. Weir for the Britannica course. For Arthur he says "When are you going to grow".

Now I have had plenty of coaches in my life. Some good and some not so good. The good ones always cared about the development of the whole person and not just athletic development. Possible Ping had that, it just isn't the impression I got.

And if he only cared about them as talent (like a pro coach probably would) and not about them as people 1st, he woudl definitely not be someone I would want to play for or have my kid play for.

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[–] AhaVanuR_24 17 years ago

Groundbreaking, heartwarming documentary masterpiece, a culmination of seven years of hard labor that produced one of the finest works of art in the 1990's, and indeed, in the 20th Century, with Roger Ebert voting it his best film of the 1990's, and catalyzing the lives of the two subjects forever....

vs.

State in 1999.

It's so hard to choose!

Believe me, you don't want Hannibal Lecter inside your head."

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] ghetarr2001 16 years ago

jdunnerocks

Are you serious here, William Gates was THE best player to come into that program, and just look what happened to him. Look at Ping handled Arthur's situation, talk about a coach who really cares about his kids! *sarcasm*. Also, way to ride Isaiah Thomas's coattails your whole life buddy, just look at Isaiah as a coach now. I think we know why he sucks as a coach, because his mentor was the evil Pingatore.

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[–] boforte1 16 years ago

you are wrong-pingatore may have been the devil....too bad he won i was hoping he was dead by now....ohh well

I once saw a forklift lift a crate of forks. And it was way to literal for me. -mitch hedberg

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] rzaxlash 15 years ago

Great post, Lukerdog. I think the sentiments here are way too harsh on Pingatore, and as many others have stated, his job was to coach the kids, not father them. In fact, I somewhat felt for Pingatore, in that he didn't feel the kids cared as much as he did about the sport.

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[–] ghetarr2001 15 years ago

Why would they? It's his JOB to care about it the way he did. You know, priority number 1? The kids' first priority is school, studying, getting good grades, joining clubs and organizations etc. The fact that they stay after practice and have to listen to that bum and run his drills shows they care enough. Pingatore is the villain in this film, clearly. Also, if you were the makers of this film, would you just sit by and watch the family literally disintegrate right in front of you and not do anything but film it? You wouldn't feel compelled, as the filmmakers did, to do SOMETHING to help? Then I just feel sorry for you, who cares if they changed a minor detail.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] ghetarr2001 15 years ago

Now I understand what you are saying. I agree too that a notice should have been there in the credits about that. Obviously poverty is the villain in the subtext of the film but I think the way Pingatore ran his program is just indicative of the piss poor attitude High School coaches have towards their players. I think he could have done more to help out Arthur, he could have set him up with financial aid, just like he did with William. But being the scumbag that he is, Arthur wasn't lighting it up on the court like he thought he was going to so he let him go. Pingatore is the villain because he did not respect his players at all, it's his fault William got hurt, and it's his fault that Arthur had to leave the school because he didn't give a rats ass about his players. In my opinion, he is the villain.

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] 15 years ago

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[–] s-williams-8 15 years ago

"... WE OWE YOU NOTHING, GET A JOB...The villain of this movie is the male role models these kids had at home. Arthur had a drug addict father and the streets. William had a piece of crap father, and a washed up older brother with washed up dreams. Ping cared more about William than any of the other role models."

It really seems like most people here have missed the point of the documentary. Pingatore becomes a symbol of white America's exploitation and supression of black people. William and Arthur are tolerated as long as they are performing - as soon as they show weakness - "write 'em off" - as Pingatore states to William.

The documentary makers are suggesting that for millions of underprivileged people the only way they see of escaping is through sport; otherwise they're destined for ganglife, destitution and an early death. This is true for many people in America and elsewhere, and it's obviously not the poverty-stricken people to blame when they succumb to drugs or crime, it's the way that huge numbers of people are written off and discarded at such a young age.

The effects of callously treating people as valuable only for their sporting prowess are shown in William's brother Curtis and Arthur's father. Both had promising NBA careers and seemed shadows of their former selves after this dream was shattered (and both were ultimately murdered).

Saying "WE OWE YOU NOTHING, GET A JOB" is ridiculous in this context, and you go on to mock Arthur's mother, who has striven to attain her nursing qualification despite the obstacles she had to overcome in the process.

People seem to believe that if you are intelligent or talented enough you can escape from poverty, and whilst this is possible it's by no means the usual result - many remain exactly where they started. Certain standards of education, healthcare and employment should be met for everyone living in America; otherwise this will continue to happen and the economic divide will grow. I personally was lucky to be able to afford further education, I'm not sure that I would have fared any better than William or Arthur if I had been born into their situation.

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[–] birdyboy86 14 years ago

Well discussed s-williams-8, I agree with pretty much all that you wrote. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle and never in the extremes (Pingatore is a villain). The truth is Pingatore is no different from everyone else in the film, who try to gain by latching on to the success of the characters. His job does depend on having kids succeed under his guidance and as soon as a kid slips below the cracks he is let go. It sounds horrible, but the reality is the system is to blame for that, not the coach. Pingatore gets a new roster every year, and every year he deals with kids who think they have potential to go all the way. And every parent wants to put their kids at St. Joseph's and does whatever it takes. That's what Pingatore meant when he said after William left St. Josephs "another one leaves and a new kid comes in (not exact)". After a few years of this any normal person would be so jaded to death I would be surprised to see any empathy left in the coach.

The system is to blame. Do I think Pingatore could've done more for Arthur to help him out? Probably. But really, Arthur is no more special than hundreds of other kids that Pingatore has coached and Pingatore knows this. Noone is willing to break a sweat to try to help out another, unless there is something in it for them seems like an enduring theme to the story. That's why the rich white family spent all that money on William's education at St. Josephs and his surgeries. Poverty and the capitalistic corporate system are to blame and its too bad the kids were not prepared for that. I have seen nicer coaches though.

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[–] macfc5 7 years ago

Maybe's he should get his priorities straight. His priority should be to build character and help his players and not just on winning games. He's shown to be a hypocrite, stressing academics and helping players get to college when they are recruiting them. But when Arthur didn't cut it, the system just spit him out.

Meanwhile, William had full financial subsidy because he was a star athlete. Everything Pingatore did was self serving and not placing the athlete's first. How would you even let a kid risk his knee? I wouldn't let the player decide, as a coach, you look out for him and sit him for the season.

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[–] coleburg83 14 years ago

Pingatore has a face and an attitude to annoy anyone, especially since he's not a great coach at all. They tried to make him seem like some sort of legendary coach, but he's just one that's had a job for awhile.

That being said, I think that people just take things at face value too often. When he told William to "write them off", it was clear that he was referring to his girlfriend's family and not her and her child. They were evidently trying to get some benefits from the filming.

And like people have said, he's the coach with an entire team of players, not their dad. It's obvious to anyone that Arthur wasn't working hard in school or on the court.

-
Condoms feel terrible.

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[–] paulfg42 12 years ago

The system was the problem. Arthur's mother nailed it when she said no one cared. The only reason any care was shown for Gates was because of his sporting ability but the system, via Pingatore, chewed him up and spat him out.

And the system is still the problem.

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