The better ball player - Hoop Dreams (1994) Discussion

[–] patgotee 18 years ago

Isiah Thomas.

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I would pick Gates but he seemed to have lost his hunger after his injuries so Arthur. I do think Gates started out a better ball player though.

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[–] patgotee 18 years ago

But seriously...I would have chosen Arthur. Raw and coachable. William (to me) almost expected to make it to the NBA so he seems that he didnt work as hard. He couldnt be coached. William's head was filled with expectations and he really lost sight of the focus on the right now. Arthur seemed like he was about winning THIS game, today.

It would have been interesting had William gotten kicked out of St. Joe's and Arthur had stayed.

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[–] Paul_Hackett 18 years ago

yeah i agree patgotee. But do you think if Gates didnt get injured he would make it to NBA. Personally i do.

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[–] apaulson 17 years ago

Also, it seemed to me that Arthur was hungry to win BECAUSE he was kicked off the team. The fact that people didn't believe he could make it made him want it that much more. Gates was the better freshman player and maybe became somewhat complacent(in addition to the injuries) but clearly he was the more physically gifted and talented player.

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[–] petthebambaotherside 18 years ago

Gates by far

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] chuckdduck23-1 18 years ago

but what if pingatore had not allowed Gates to play following his injury?
then the whole landscape might have been changed
but since pingatore seems like this movie's version of darth vader, i guess it doesnt really matter.....

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] chillyvic_mait 18 years ago

I don't think Ping ever respected William Gates enough as a person, nor really respected him enough as a player either. He respected the glory William could bring him and St. Joe's too much. Sure the movie may not have portrayed Ping in an entirely accurate light, but it's pretty clear that Ping's main concern back then was Ping. His ego was the size of Lake Michigan.

Like the whole 'don't make a quick decision on Marquette' attitude that he and Dennis Doyle played struck me largely as a selfish concern that Marquette wasn't a big enough name for them. They may have cloaked it in some 'we only want what's best for William' talk but I think really they were concerned mainly with St. Joe's reputation. Had it been a Michigan State their tunes would have been +completely+ different I think.

Also the anecdote Ping launches into after the loss to Nazareth -- William's final game -- something about his toughest loss with Isiah on a buzzer beater, which literally made no sense. He seemed to be lamenting his own fate -- 'William was supposed to get me downstate so everyone could see how great I am' -- rather than showing any real concern for his player(s). Anyway I just don't think you can blame the editing or even viewer subjectivity alone for how negatively he comes off in the movie.

On the commentary disc William says they have a better relationship now.

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[–] runtheoption 18 years ago

you seem like some sort of former St. Joe's JV player that was spurned by Ping or something..

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] boforte1 16 years ago

a.agee for sure-he stayed healthy and was a better athlete the whole time-that creepy catholic school bet on the wrong horse-i found it funny that agee went further in the playoffs and that scene with gates watching arthur playing at state was worth about 4,000 words-that coach from gates school is the devil and i really hope he is dead now-he did not care about what was best for his players-high school basketballl just isnt that important-and if it is to you then you are a loser who needs to get out more. its just a bouncy ball at the end of the day.....as adults they should see that....the kids i understand but adults should know better-

I once saw a forklift lift a crate of forks. And it was way to literal for me. -mitch hedberg

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[–] berniemoonbeam 14 years ago

From what i saw on this great documentary, William starts out the better ball player but as time goes by Arther seems to catch him up and surpass him.

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[–] xb9738 13 years ago

I don't disagree with the cases the above posters made for the two players.

It's hard to say. Arthur lacked confidence (probably from getting kicked off St joe's) and as the game progressed, Arthur's focus digressed, according to this Marshall coach. But he was pretty quick with the ball coming down the court.

William was the better more athletic player during freshman year. He was mentally soft as Coach Ping pointed out in the doc. he was a better shooter than Isiah.

In the end I would pick Arthur. With the right coaching and nurturing he would've made Saint Joe's a winner.

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[–] gvytui 13 years ago

Gates was the better player. It seemed like Arthur struggled up until his senior year, when his confidence shot up and he helped lead his team deep into the playoffs. Gates had those injuries and you can see by his senior year he is favoring his knee at points, which shouldn't be held against him. He was still the best player on the court, and when healthy a better player than Arthur.

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[–] prettyD2368 12 years ago

Gates was the better player and athlete at first. But Arthur really caught up with him his senior year. Arthur always had a quicker first step, but his senior year he became a better leaper than Gates too. Did you see the end of the playground scene when he dunks after beating his father in a game of 21. His head is near rim level on the dunk. Arthur also led his college team to the NCAA tournament.

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[–] Thomas-FordJr-1 12 years ago

This is the classic case of the Young(pre High School) Phenom VS the Late Bloomer.

Like others have said, Gates was by far the better ball player initially out of Middle School. His body was more developed than most incoming Freshman, thus making him bigger, faster, and stronger. Yeah... he suffered unfortunate injuries, but if you really look at his physical growth, he never got any bigger. He's basically the same size as an 18 year old as he was when he was 14. It was not only Arthur who caught up with him, but it was also the other kids. He was still good, but just not as dominant. The injuries had something to do with it, but he really didn't improve his overall game that much.

Arthur on the other hand was the typical skill, smallish Freshman. He was talented, but he probably would have played for the Freshman team no matter what HS he started at. He just wasn't physically ready to play anything more advanced than that. But he had the type of long, lanky body that you knew he would eventually grow to be tall. As he developed, he started passing up many of the kids he was playing against. In the end, he was the better player.

But I've always wondered if Gates always had knee problems. In the beginning, when he is on the playground, even before he starts at St Joseph's, you can see he has some sort of knee brace on. Interesting...

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[–] knifeparty2004 8 years ago

Some of these arguments are just terrible. You can't judge who was better based on the heavily-edited footage. But you can judge by how close they were to making it. In that respect, Gates was much better. Making McDonalds All-American, going to Marquette. etc

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[–] MartyMoose1977 (94) 5 months ago

Playing for Marquette is quite an accomplishment in itself. I'm from Milwaukee and was a Marquette fan at the time William played there. I thought for sure Jim McIlvaine was going to be great in the NBA player. While William Gates was a great athlete he was only 6' tall and I never expected him to make the NBA. 2 of William's teammates did make the NBA in McIIlvaine and Amal McCaskill. William was getting 20mpg before his injury and was a decent player but when your only 6' you need to really pop off as something special to get the NBA's attention. If I was in William Gates situation I would have also started looking for Career prospects outside of Basketball and use that College Education to set himself up for a nice career.
Arthur Agee I never saw play IRL but based on what we know it he sees like a guy that really could have benefited from the NBA G League which sadly didn't start until 5 years after he left college.

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[–] Hamsterman11 8 years ago

It's hard to judge based on just the editing footage, but i agree with the other guy that William making the high school camp with Shaq et al was a pretty good indication that he was the better player.

Interestingly, I don't think Basketball would have been Arthur's best sport. Had he been born down under, he would have made a great rugby or league winger with his electric pace off the mark.

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[–] jackbnimbleharvardblue 7 years ago

Gates was better at first, that's why he started on the varsity as a freshman. He was a top level baller until the injuries came. Arthur did become the better player leading his team to an NCAA berth in college!

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