Am I the only one who doesn't think it was so bad that they killed Pauline's mother? It was a horrid thing, yes, and they could have just tried to work things out another way (without murder)...but being seperated from your very best friend? It just seems like people aren't taking that into account very well. Death isn't the worst thing, the worst thing is what you have to live with while you're still in this world.
shareWell, do you think they should have been put in a jail cell together for years or something, to keep living out their obsessive friendship? The worst thing for the GIRLS would be having to live with what they did but death is the worst thing for the innocent mother, her man and other loved ones. Sorry but I want to slap you.
~ Leet.
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~ Disclaimer: Whilst I am a self-confessed junkie for morbid and taboo subjects, I do not condone depraved or otherwise illegal acts. ~
Everyday, people are separated from their best friends, be it willingly or not. It does not give them an excuse to murder. It is not a right that anyone is allowed. Their action was performed out of selfishness and a desire to look out for their own wants. Furthermore, it is undeniable that their friendship was unhealthy if they went to such great lengths to try to be together, and even prior to the murder, a separation may have been the healthiest thing for one another. Unwillingly, their utter dependence on one another was actually harming them instead of helping them.
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Everyone dies, but not everyone gets to live. -- The Ice Queen
The whole point of the film was to see an atrocious murder with sympathy for all the participants in the tragedy, so that the murder, though never less appalling, is much more uderstandable in the light of the psychological portrait this brilliant film paints of the girls and their victim.
It is this humanistic approach that is responsible for the film's greatness. It remains, in spite of the success of the "Lord of the Rings" films, the enjoyably sbocking humour of his early schlock films and the surprising horror- epic quality of "The Frighteners', Peter Jackson's greatest film.
But you ARE Blanche ... and I AM.
You are suggesting that the crime of seperating two best friends validates a death sentence.
Yes, you're the only one. Your suggestion: "Am I the only one who doesn't think it was so bad that they killed Pauline's mother?" is ridiculous.
I think what some people may be missing her is the fact that they were in love. It makes the murder no less horrid, but think about it...two young people in love(lesbian, gay, or straight) will go to great lengths to stay together. These girls just happened to believe that the most horrible act was the most logic. I think it's sad and tragic, yes...but I also found it sad and tragic that that would be the last time they'd see each other.
"Had you fought like a man, you need not have been hanged like a dog!" ~Anne Bonney
It is in no way acceptable that they killed Pauline's mother, nothing warrented that whatsoever and the brutal way in which they murdered her was shocking and appauling.
That said, you don't sit and watch a fantastically complex, beautiful, breathtaking film like this to come to one solid conclusion. Jackson has blurred the lines of right and wrong. You are supposed to feel for the girls, to almost want them to succeed, to be together no matter what the cost - you want it right up until those last few minutes when Pauline pushes the cake towards her mother and says 'treat yourself' and then you realise that you what you've been made to feel. That's the whole point.
The film's innate beauty, the relationship between the girls was portrayed in such a manner that if you did not feel for them, want them to be together at some point in the film - then you missed the point.
So yes of course the murder was awful, wrong and horrifying (what did it for me was the noise she made when the first blow struck - good God!) but 90% of the film is the beautiful, delightfully intense relationship between two girls in their own fantasy world. So yes, I did feel for them. I did want them to be together, of course I did. Films like this are not cut and dry. They are intricate mixtures of complex emotions and conclusions. The harrowing murder of Pauline's mother shocked us all, but would we be so shocked and quite frankly - traumatised - if we hated both girls, if we wanted them to fail? It's our own emotions that betray us when we realise that up until that point, we were rooting for them. Or I was at least. You feel what it felt like, almost. You can, to some small degree, understand. I imagine that is what Jackson set out to do. If he had wanted to portray the girls otherwise, it would have been very easy.
In their world, right and wrong had lost much of it's meaning. Through the mesmeric directing, acting, music and passion in this film - we are made to feel that as we go along with, pulling ourselves back from the brink just in time to witness the ghastly murder.
So in a way, you're not the only one. But your phrasing was poor honey, condoning murder is going to get people's backs up. Unless I misread, but anyway - just my opinion.
x x x
Lilithdemilo24, I wish to kiss you upon your cheek and face.
"Had you fought like a man, you need not have been hanged like a dog!" ~Anne Bonney
Yes, MORE blurring of the line between good and evil is EXACTLY what is needed in this world! There aren't NEARLY enough psychopaths, sociopaths, terrorists, and other amoral lunatics already loose on this planet. Let's try and UNDERSTAND the motives for their insane and selfish violence. As Denis Miller put it; "Oh, you were insane at the time of the murder. Ok, you get to wear a clown suit to your execution."
shareMrPie7 - Understanding is not necessarily sympathising.
It's a film. If you want to read cut and dry, no blurred lines, no depth or exploration of themes in our world from both sides - go read the bible. Films are supposed to take us on a journey, it's a complicated, harrowing journey.
As I have said before - the murder is not acceptable, nor is it made to feel so - have you actually seen the film? That murder scene is one of the most shocking, brutal portrayals I have ever seen, it turned my stomach more than Hostel! Nothing about that made me feel that ANYTHING they went through, felt, or believed warrented that. Up until that point, the first time I saw it - I openly admit that I was rooting for them to be together, I didn't know the story behind it or that they would kill her. Why watch a film to come to one very solid conclusion? What's the point of that? Through questioning ourselves, through understanding -NOT sympathy or encouragement- we can explore who we are more thoroughly.
Put it this way - we fear what we do not understand. If we fear these people, they can control us, I'm not talking about Pauline Parker of Juliet Hulme now, I speak of the "psychopaths, sociopaths, terrorists, and other amoral lunatics already loose on this planet" that you referenced. How can we tackle this growing mass of psychotic individuals unless we have some small insight to why they are the way they are? How? Instead of trying to understand the problem, just wait until they're old enough to shoot down?
As I said - understanding is NOT the same as sympathising. And it's a film, not a how-to guide for regarding criminals. AND anyone who watched that murder scene cannot be left with anything but the intended reaction - horror.
Lilith, if you read what I said originally, you will see that I said it works IN THE FILM. My problem was with all the folks who thought that they had a right to kill anyone whom they thought was a threat, especially that idiot who believed that until the justice system was "perfect" folks should go right ahead and make a "pre-emptive strike" on those whom they perceive as dangerous. And remember, that Karl is RETARDED! He is probably unaware of the intricacies of restaining orders or criminal charges against people who make "terroristic threats" and dometic violence suits and such. What an example to follow! "Uh Huuuuuuh"!
shareIt may well just be "A film", but it's a film based on reality and believe it or not, I was not really rooting for the girls after a certain point.
As much as I sympathised over their mutual illnesses, Pauline was exceptionally cheeky to her parents, almost ashamed of them. Juliet was spoiled because her parents often abandoned her and compensated by other means.
Honora was undeserving of this heinous crime for she was only trying to do her best by Pauline - not that anyone "deserves" to be murdered of course.
The interviews I have seen of Juliet AKA Anne Perry in recent years have altered my views also. She seems utterly unrepentant and rather smug. The fact she went on to write and promote crime novels is frankly, insulting. She maintains it's some sort of coincidence and that she never really related the irony of her own crime to the fact she was writing and making a living out of crime per se - a comment I'm sure would go down like a lead balloon with the victim's relatives.
Anyone with an ounce of dignity, repentance, compassion and self-respect would certainly not pursue a career writing about murder when they themselves have cruelly robbed an innocent woman of her life in a premeditated, selfish and brutal way.
Shame on her.
There's 3 ways a man can wear his hair; front-parted, side-parted or departed
I take small issue with your description of the girls.
Pauline is, first and foremost, a teenager. Do we remember what that's like? You immerse yourself in a world comprised solely of your peers and begin to think that the barriers parents put up [rules and regulations] are a result of their inability to let their babies go- or more often, out of spite, that the newly blossoming teen is no longer a little angel and has begun to question authority. Adults are seen as limiting, punishing, unfeeling creatures with no souls, whose sole purpose in life is to prevent teens from doing what they want.
This of course is far from the truth, although parents do often forget their own experiences as teens [or if they do remember, it conveniently seems to only apply to the sexual exploration part]. But most of what teens think and feel is highly irrational. Their lives are a mass of contradictions, especially for girls- sexuality is dangerous and life-ruining, but exciting and a key to popularity. Clothing, hairstyle, and makeup are controlled by friends and society, but often also restricted to certain terms by parents. As one emerges from childhood, the child's persona is put aside, leaving the self temporarily vulnerable- the easiest and most common thing to do is, instead of building a new persona, to adopt a copy of a premade one, and fit into a niche created for you.
Often, when teens reject the materialistic competition of mass society, they turn to a sub-culture. But even then, they may not be accepted- the entrance into any culture is dependent on how willing you are to remodel yourself in the image of those who already belong. And so, there are those [like myself] who fail to fit anywhere at all. They have no friends, and by association, no one to share their newly changing selves with- and only by sharing and receiving can we refine our selves into a functional persona. You can't share yourself with your parents- both society and instincts tell you that you should be moving away from them and 'forming into your own person', and sharing yourself with your parents is almost a guarantee that you will simply be a copy of them.
If you are a singular teen, and you find a friend, it's likely to be someone much like yourself- someone with a few acquaintances, but no true friends of their own. If they depend on you as much as you depend on them for development, then you wind up with a very close relationship- like the one Paul had.
Also, Juliet being spoiled is entirely natural. If your parents don't pay attention to you as a child, it will *beep* UP YOUR ENTIRE LIFE. I kid you not. And if you're monetarily compensated instead, then for you, love = money. People only love you if they're willing to spend on you. It's a substitute, and not a very good one. So you simultaneously are incredibly lonely and hurt, and have no idea of the value of money. So, in a way, she is spoiled by an excess of money, yes- but bereft of love.
Kalia, that was one of the best posts i've read. Though i offer disagreement on a point of yours. Usually when people are unique, it isn't that people necessarily become lonely, etc. When people are individuals and take pride in who they are they usually become followed by people; unique individuals often spark interests in others. For instance, because of the fact that i was quiet (and still am in certain occassions) when i was younger, didn't follow trends, etc, girls liked me (and still do) and noticed me because of the fact that i was different than everyone else. People who break the mold eventually gain a gathering by other people. You don't by any means have to become a drone in order to have friends. All those styles, from Marilyn Manson (or everything you'd classify as "goth") to Kanye West and his combination of polo shirts and louie vuitton clothing along with fitted caps and sneakers, were created by people being themselves and their styles are now classified as genres being copied by millions of people. Now if Kanye walked into a Manson concert or anywhere when he was a teen wearing his created style of clothes, he might not fit in "pre-set" cultures already in progress but he could surely create his own style and gain legions of fans as he has. Individuality doesn't mean forever loneliness, it usually means the opposite in the long run.
I feel everyone's unique but I'm speaking of people who don't conform,have pride, etc.
Excellent post!
shareImo there is not a friend on earth that is worth the murder of one's Mother.
It's a film sure, but of a true story.... they were both selfish and sick and
in the end they got off bloody easy for what they planned and followed
through with.
There is no way to understand this sort of brutal matricide...
nor does "understanding" stop the creation of sociopaths.
I think it's disturbing of the OP to even ask.
Whether or not understanding stops the creation of sociopaths (and I don't see how you can know that) it can lead to recognizing potential sociopaths which could stop crimes.
shareHow is blurring the lines between good and evil going to lead to more "psychopaths, sociopaths, terrorists and other moral lunatics"?
Do you ever think that maybe by understanding motives for crimes might lead to less of these type of crimes by making it easier to identify and prevent the causes of violent crimes or personality disorders that lead to violent crimes, recognize traits and symptoms of those likely to commit such crimes and learn how to rehabilitate those who do who are going to be released one day?
To the OP you really don't do yourself any favors by starting off by saying that the crime wasn't so bad maybe it was a bad choice of words but it makes it very hard to take anything you say seriously.
The early stages of the relationship and aspects of the later relationship between Pauline and Juliet are actually very similar to the relationship I had with my best friend/first love so I can sympathize and relate to the two girls from that point of view and it does make me a little sad at the end when it says they were never allowed to see each other again. However, that pales in comparison to the brutal death that Honora suffered and that was worse than anything they went through.
How is blurring the lines between good and evil going to lead to more "psychopaths, sociopaths, ists and other moral lunatics"?
Because such people ALREADY have a fuzzy idea of what is right and wrong, to create more abiguity is to allow those who have even a slight conception that vi0lence is wrong can now justify it in their heads. This is the position advocated by preacher Casey in "the Grapes of Wrath". "Then there IS no right and no wrong. There's just stuff folks does. Some of it's nice, and some of it's not so nice. And that's all anybody's got a right to say." So a guy who comits unspeakable crimes against juveniles just for his own private pleasure is "not so nice." Most of these predators would say "Hey! I can live with that. What's the penalty for being "not so nice"?
Do you ever think that maybe by understanding motives for crimes might lead to less of these type of crimes by making it easier to identify and prevent the causes of violent crimes or personality disorders that lead to violent crimes, recognize traits and symptoms of those likely to commit such crimes and learn how to rehabilitate those who do who are going to be released one day?
You will NEVER "understand" why someone commits irrational, violent, crimes. It's a blind alley. TREAT mental illness but PLEASE don't try to understand insane acts.
There is a difference between "right and wrong" and "good and evil". To blur the lines between right and wrong can be dangerous but to say that human beings are more complex than categories like good and bad is not to excuse immorality.
Actually having studied psychology I do have more understanding for some violent crimes and the motives and personality disorders that lead to them so while life is more complex than to be able to say "this is exactly what lead this person to go on a killing spree" the study of human behavior and the human mind can lead to a better knowledge of the causes of these acts
I have also studied psychology and I don't think that "understanding" why the student at the University of Virginia went on his rampage is going to be particularly helpful in stopping similar incidents.. You can study his video "manifesto" your whole life and it won't help to prevent similar insane acts. He was ALIENATED! Everyone who knew him realized that. Many friends, teachers, and his parents tried to get him help since his GRADE SCHOOL years. He even went to counseling. But the fact remains: he was insane and committed insane acts. How does understanding the reasons for a madman's frenzy help anyone? Especially if he is unwilling or unable to receive help. Cure schizophrenia and you won't need to understand ANY motives. Cure loneliness and fear and you won't need to fathom the reasons for such behavior. It won't exist. But no MORTAL can create a world without loneliness or fear. And no amount of "understanding" will ever bring it about. Hold people to clear, well-defined standards and remove those who can't refrain from using deadly force to gain their ends...be they money, revenge, or acceptance.
sharePauline Parker was sent to a psychiatrist who put her problems down to homosexuality. If he they had a better understanding of the symptoms and issues which lead to violent crimes maybe he could have recognized that she was dangerous and needed help and done something to prevent what happened.
shareSince no two people are alike, understanding the motives behind a particular act may not be of much value. Two people feel alienated from society. One becomea a lonely introvert, the other kills everyone at the "Piggly Wiggly". So what did we learn? That there is a wide range of responsing and studying a maniac's motives for a senseless crime is the sound of one hand clapping. (IMO) What we need is more study of the human brain and less anecdotes from lunatics and madmen.
shareNo two people are exactly the same but there are often similarities in the lives and behavioral patterns of murderers/violent criminals.
share" there are often similarities in the lives and behavioral patterns of murderers/violent criminals."
And just as often there are NOT. What is needed is more REAL research into the physiology of the brain and how it functions. Reading about Ted Bundy and Casey Marie Anthony may be: interesting, fun, and even informative, but it will never unlock the secrets of the abnormal mind.
Sometimes there are and sometimes there aren't therefore being knowledgeable about these things will help detect crimes early in some cases but not all. Nobodies saying that research into the physiology of the brain isn't needed.
shareI will grant you one thing. Any child or teen-ager who tortures and kills small animals is probably a candidate for lifetime membership at "the rubber room spa and fitness club". :)
shareOh Mr Pie! that is sooo good, priceless!
I'll start sewing the clown suits!
Nobody is missing that. The fact that they were supposedly in love doesn't alter the fact that murder is a crime and the victim was Pauline's own mother.
The new home of Welcome to Planet Bob: http://kingofbob.blogspot.ca/
You're nuts it was an awful idea to kill her mother and the reason was so absurd it wasn't just her mother that wanted to keep them apart it was also Juliet's father besides I think Juliet's parents didn't want Pauline tagging along with them to Austrailia or wherever they were going. Pauline was so irrational and angry that she focussed all of her frustration on her mother because her mother had to be the one to get her to understand that she can't just do whatever she wants.
I thought there was no point to the muder and they wouldn't gain anything out of it because even if they would of gotten away with murder Juliet's parents still would'nt let Pauline go with them especially since her father started taking a dislike to Pauline and Juliet's relationship.
While I agree that death isn't the most horrible penalty, it still doesn't excuse that they took Pauline's mother's life from her and removed the mother from her husband's life as well. That cannot be compared to a couple that could have bided their time and been together in a few months or years.
shareI certainly agree that if both of the girls had just used even the slightest amount of "common sense, reason, and logic", they would have realised that even though they were about to to be temporarily separated, in a few years time at most, once they had reached legal adulthood, they could then do absolutely whatever they wanted, and be together again if that was what they still wanted.
All this, without having to kill anyone, and therefore risk going to jail and being separated from one another anyway - thereby negating the whole purpose of the killing. Another option at the time might have been to apply to legally "divorce" themselves from both sets of parents - though I'm not sure what family circumstances might need to pre-exist, before such a "divorce" might be granted by the courts. However, it just goes to show that neither of the girls really gave any serious consideration to the ramifications of their actions, or thought about other possible "options". Perhaps they were incapable of any logical thought whatsoever.
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It was Pauline who needed the good slap, not her mother. Juliet's parents were negligent, but Pauline's parents were for the most part loving and caring I got the impression that Pauline looked down on them in part because she was ashamed of their working class background. She became infatuated with Juliet's parents, as cold as they were (the father could barely disguise his contempt of Pauline), because they were rich and classy.
My problem with this movie, fascinating as much of it was, was that it sucked up too much to Pauline and Juliet. Nearly every adult in the was presented as an unsympathetic gargoyle. At times it was like a John Hughes film on acid.
The film showed life from Pauline and Juliets perspective which is why it was made in such a melodramatic way which reflects their histrionic personalities and why so many of the adults were unsympathetic.
share