MovieChat Forums > Dolores Claiborne (1995) Discussion > From a man's point of view.

From a man's point of view.


As a guy, I gotta say this movie gave me the chills. Now I'm not an abusive husband, and I think Dolores' husband got what he deserved. But the conversations between Kathy Bates and Judy Parfitt were *beep* scary!
The movie really brought home that old saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned." Those dialogues show an aspect of a woman that we guys tend to forget or ignore. I think most women marry with certain basic expectations, and when those expectations are ripped apart as they were by David Strathairn we see an aspect in these women that we guys just don't want to see. It's not a blind rage, it's a cold, calculating anger. It's the anger that comes when there is nothing else left, summed up in the quote "Sometimes being a bitch, is all a woman has to hang too."
As I said I'm not abusive or anything but my wife and I do argue, but everytime I watch this movie I think "Damn, maybe I should just let her win the fight."

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Interesting observation. My perspective always leaned a little more toward how the powerless protect themselves from the tyranny of the powerful, how they survive the abuses.

"It's because I'm a woman, ain't it?" isn't quite as chilling as the "Being a bitch" line, but I think is also an important theme in the film. Vera, Dolores and Selena are examples of women who suffer and eventually triumph over the destructive men in their lives, and find a way survive in a male-dominated world. The three women live in different social classes, have different levels of education, are in different stages of their lives...yet all three are subject to the abuses of powerful men.

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Hey folks, let's not condone taking the "law into our own hands." These women had other alternatives besides murder. No one deserves to be murdered because someone else finds them odious, evil or whatever.
Many films try to win us over to their point of view by dehumanizing the victim, playing up how evil they are and deserving of what they get.
This was another rehash of feminism's "women as victims" and an "oppressed minority."
As a woman, I condemn those points of view of the film. I thought it was good because of its macabre quality, excellent acting and the Maine locale.

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Yes, we shouldn't forget that no matter how heroic Dolores was, she did lay a trap for Joe and let him die. That macabre quality was the draw for the movie, but murder is not presented as the only solution. Though Dolores and Vera got away with murder, it haunted them for the rest of their lives. And Vera and Dolores get away with it, but their abusers were getting away with it, too.

But we also shouldn't forget that Dolores's daughter Selena triumphs for all three women legally, using the system. She murders no one, rather she holds a mirror up to the detective, and in some sense to the legal and social systems that provided fertile ground for all the pain we see.

And women have been victims and have been an oppressed minority, and still are in many cases. Because that theme has been explored in past films, doesn't mean it can never be explored again.

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jouler500-art, I supposed you're against the death pentalty. This whole, as a woman, as a man argument is rather silly. After all, the author and screen writer were both men. I guess we don't see eye to eye on things; I think some people do deserve to be killed (ie scott peterson). It's not only movies these people are talking about. You can't tell me it's right or wrong, I'll find out in the after-life. Yes, these women had other alternatives, but what a boring movie that would make.

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I fyully, fully agree. The movie was a lot more challenging, thought-provoking and interesting when the dad was presented as a bad husband and a great dad- the caricature of a chartacter later presented took away from the power of the movie, and the issue of vigilantism. It was at least interesting to see the daughter never completely forgiving her mother for it..

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Jouler500: I do condone taking the law into our own hands (and the punishment has to fit the crime) because the law is fallible and too often does not protect the innocent. I'm a guy and I don't think such action is feminist (I'm certainly not). BTW (because I saw it mentioned by another poster), I don't support the death penalty, but yep, I do support vigilant justice if our justice system has proven time again it will be dole out 'justice' fairly.

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I don't think vigilantism should be allowed if a civil society is to function, but I can't blame Dolores for doing what she did. You can dress us up like civilized people, you can give us courtrooms and laws, but we're still the same animals we've always been and there are few instincts more base than protecting your young. There aren't many things that can damage a child worse than sexual abuse. From a societal standpoint, you can't let people do what she did, but from an evolutionary standpoint, she was doing what any animal would do to protect their young from a predator.

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I agree and believe in our justice system and a right to a trial for the accused. That said, I am both greatly saddened and disgusted when a child is sexually abused. The effects can be so destructive. If I found out my husband did this to our daughter, wanting to kill him would be one of many emotions I'd have. I would not do it though. Not for a reason most would think at least. I would not do it because doing so would further victimize my child. They would have no parents to live with and would go into foster care all while blaming themself.
Wouldn't be like those idiot "mothers" that continue to let it happen though. That is sickening and happens WAY too much!

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"As a woman bla bla bla bla bla" Go climb back under a rock you heartless *beep* Did we watch the same movie? Joe was molesting their 13 year old daughter. That is why Dolores killed him, not because of the money or because he abused her. Dolores didn't even know the money was missing until she found out that Joe was molesting Selena. When she found out, she tried to withdraw all of her money to take Selena away to hide her from Joe.

Selena was psychologically f*ucked up beyond all recognition due to sexual abuse, and constant harassment by the other people in the town. She tried to slit her own throat with a glass Christmas ornament after receiving a harassing phone call from people screaming at her that she and her mother were murderers. Her relationship issues and vindictive nature towards men went way back into her past as a victim of of horrible crimes. Her hate from her mother was caused by repressing the memories of her father, because she couldn't emotionally handle them. She is a warped and twisted soul who's only coping mechanism is her alcohol and drug addiction.

Vera, on the other hand was nothing more than a hateful man hating bitch, and was extremely proud of the title. I can't really argue with your assessment when it comes to her.

You misunderstood 90% of this movie. I suggest you stick to entertainment more appropriate to your level of mental development. I think Sesame Street is right up your alley.

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Wow, ummm, angry much??? Sheesh, I don't think such angry brow beating is necessary. Holly cow, chill out.

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Go *beep* yourself, you incoherent *beep*
Hama cheez ba-Beer behtar meshawad!

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"Vera, on the other hand was nothing more than a hateful man hating bitch, and was extremely proud of the title...." I'm not sure I agree with this. Her response, to me, indicates she experienced some of the same awfulness as Selena and/or Dolores, and that was why she was intent on helping them.

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Well well, you have a problem with Joe because he's abusive towards the women in his life, but just look at the way you talk to a woman. Hypocrite much?

You misunderstood 90% of this movie.


And you misunderstood 100% of the poster's point. Here:

"Many films try to win us over to their point of view by dehumanizing the victim, playing up how evil they are and deserving of what they get."

Seems you completely misunderstood the movie itself and the fact that it succesfully manipulated your emotions.

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^Well said.

The horses are coming, so you'd better run

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It is easy in these modern times to forget that just a few years ago child molestation was something that everyone tended to sweep under the rug. Until recently this was a mans world. If you were born 1970's or later, you have never experienced the way it was for way to many generations of women. Even in the movie, detective Mackey figured out why Deloris killed her husband, and was still out for wrathfully justice to get the Mankiller. It didnt bother him at all to emotionally abuse the girl who'd already been through hell. Not to long ago, the world we lived in believed the victims deserved being abused, spousal abuse, child molestation ...It was all shameful and kept hidden. The abuser never had consequences, but those they abused, well it effected their whole lives and always effects the generations that follow. This is the ugly truth.

At least 1 out of 5 girls were molested. I don't know what the estimate is now but I hope it's gone down. I am old enough to have lived in those times, when it was completely a mans world. I rejoice at the many changes toward making this a safer, healthier world for all. You may condemn that these things are brought out into the light, but, unfortunately, it is because these things are talked about in the light of day and made into movies that we are now living in a culture that no longer further abuses women and children by blaming them for what their abuser did to them.

As a woman, I am so very relieved that at last the things which used to be only whispered about.. Things women were powerless to change...and where we suffered our whole lives with no recourse....Are brought out and looked at in the full light of day. As a woman who is old enough to have experienced living in that mans world, I am grateful to be living in a world more balanced than it has been for a few thousand years. We still have a long way to go but we are at last getting there.

Yes, I suppose some men do want their world back, but then again, when we look at those completely male dominated cultures around the world..... Abuses toward women and children are condemned. Funny, isn't it! The difference between those male dominated cultures and ours, here in the USA ... Is education, and 30 years.

Yes, Kathy bates deserved an Oscar, and much recognition for her performance!!!! Excellent movie, excellent subject matter! It is because """ IT""" is now being talked about that we ALL know its wrong! All hail movies like this and education!

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This is true as illustrated by the scene in the bank. If he were convicted, he wouldn't have spent as much time as today most likely. In addition to that, Selena wasn't wanting to tell people because she was so conflicted, which could have led to a trial never coming to light, and additional trauma on the child if it did. I'm not condoning murder, but it seems pretty clear why she did it, and the times contributed to that.

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At least 1 out of 5 girls? Got any source for that or you just talking out your ass?

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Hey folks, let's not condone taking the "law into our own hands." These women had other alternatives besides murder. No one deserves to be murdered because someone else finds them odious, evil or whatever.
Many films try to win us over to their point of view by dehumanizing the victim, playing up how evil they are and deserving of what they get.
This was another rehash of feminism's "women as victims" and an "oppressed minority."
As a woman, I condemn those points of view of the film.


Had to post this again, because it's so true!

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nun: Very well put!

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[deleted]

Thats what I got from it too. Delores put up with a lot of abuse and didnt kill her husband until she found out what he did to their daughter. Hell hath no fury like a mama bear whose cub is being trifled with!

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I have to agree, but anyone really who is pushed beyond their limits will do just about anything to get away. As a man I live by 'Hell hath no fury...' because Vera and Delores' have a focal point to focus their anger...I am not about vigilantism and I really just remember that Delores' and all mothers have this maternal instinct that if you mess with them or their young, you will pay, Joe did, and he fell into a hole. Jack ignored Vera, she took care of that problem too. So really, I think that Vera and Delores were true friends, having a mutual understanding of wht each other went through, no one in Vera's circle could have understood that. Part of me still wanders, after Joe was killed, I don't think that Vera or Delores ever spoke of that again, possibly Vera had friends at Vassar College to help out Selena, the story and connections could have gone on and on.

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This film is about desperation. The women did what they had to do because circumstances wouldn't allow or make room for any other alternatives. Whether their oppressors were men, women, children, lawn knomes or monkeys, they did what they had to do to save themselves, as anyone would.

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It's funny that you say that (first poster) because last night I made some pretty sucky stir-fry for dinner. Well, afterwards my bf said that basically it sucked and was the worst thing I ever made. Well we both laughed about it because it's true and I didn't like it either. Well after dinner watching this movie when Joe says the line about having a fat ass and being a lousy cook. my bf looks over at me with this expression like..."uhh please don't bludgeon me to death tonight in my sleep." Haha I got a kick outta that and an apology!

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As a black, dwarf, blind, transgendered serial killer, I didn't approve of what Dolores did.

No really, I don't think you being a man changes anything.
And there have been plenty of horrible females in movies (Nurse Ratched in One flew over the cuckoos nest being one example of a woman who tormented men and as the audience we were made to want her punished)

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Are you MF Grimm?

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It was a bit scary to hear two woemn talking like that, but they were not talking about a simple argument between a couple. They were talking about a man who was drinking, who had no respect for his wife, who stole money from the members of his own family and who sexually abused his own daughter. There's a difference.

Harry realized that Malfoy was crying, tears streaming down his pale face into the grimy basin.

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*beep* you, *beep*

Hama cheez ba-Beer behtar meshawad!

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Either you have a totally crazy wife, or you're really terrible with interacting with women in general.

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Haha, actually - the character of Deloris is a woman I could totally love. She wasn't abusive or hateful, she was patient let a lot of stuff slide, and then drew a line when it should have been drawn. Her husband couldn't have had a better woman, or underappreciate her more. Deloris' character isn't threatening at all to me in that I think that either a woman or man placed in the same situation would act identically since it's completely justifiable.

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This

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But the conversations between Kathy Bates and Judy Parfitt were *beep* scary!


I'm a woman and that David Mamet-style "not TALKING, but just talking" conversation about what Dolores should do in her situation scared ME! Both women were amazing in that scene.

Oh, and yes, you must always let your wife win an argument (or at least make her think she did). It's the power of the P-U-you know what!

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Do men actually believe they should never argue back or stick up for themselves because of the misandrist "hell hath no fury" isn't that a form of oppression and domestic abuse as well or like many things today it's only wrong if a man does it but ok when done by a woman?

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Do men actually believe they should never argue back or stick up for themselves because of the misandrist "hell hath no fury"
Many, if not most, men do.
isn't that a form of oppression and domestic abuse as well
It's a form of psychological abuse that would never be tolerated if it went the other way.
like many things today it's only wrong if a man does it but ok when done by a woman?
That's the double standard.
you must always let your wife win an argument (or at least make her think she did). It's the power of the P-U-you know what!
If this comment isn't misandry, then there's no such thing as misandry.

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death was the proper punsihment her husband deserved.

Don't worry, I saw Lord of the Rings. I'm not going to end this 17 times.

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death was the proper punsihment her husband deserved.
I was talking about real life in general, not this novel/movie.

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> death was the proper punsihment her husband deserved.

Change roles, make him an abusive woman, and see if your judgement holds up.

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Ummm excuse me, are you trying to say that if it were about a mother sexually abusing her son people would not think she deserved to die? Because if so you're full of crap. Because when mothers abuse their children sexually I think people consider it much worse as it's something people really don't ever expect a mother to do-especially to a child she gave birth to. It seems to disturb people on a much deeper level. People take trying to point out double standards too far when they start saying things that are flat out not true.

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from above :

As I said I'm not abusive or anything but my wife and I do argue, but everytime I watch this movie I think "Damn, maybe I should just let her win the fight."

^^^

Damn, I was just thinking the same thing! Was thinking.. "Men, do not EVER Piss off your woman"

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