MovieChat Forums > Crumb (1995) Discussion > I'm sorry, but I can't really feel sympa...

I'm sorry, but I can't really feel sympathy for Charles

posted 9 years ago by amywilson-09197
33 replies | jump to latest

I take strong medication too, but I'm not fortunate enough that I get to avoid working my ass off every day. And all because he was bullied in high school? Grow the hell up, we were all bullied. I was always being beaten up, but if I tried to live at home and wallow in self-pity for the rest of my life my parents would've shown me the door.

He's very fortunate but acts like a prisoner. He's a genius with talents that could give him a cushy position in life, and he fails to see how privileged he is that he gets to stay inside and read books all day. Who wouldn't want to do that? Better than having to work every day.

His journals express how he fears going outside because of "vigilantes" who want to attack him because of his sexual hang ups - he's a genius, so he can put on a convincing poker face from nine to five, I'm sure. Nobody would've tried to confront him about something that he is smart enough to hide convincingly. I'm sorry, but I can't feel sympathy for someone who has advantages in life but choses to feel depressed and live in cushy, self-imposed isolation. It's his choice to live inside for his entire life. His choice. There are people who have been raped, molested and beaten half to death, but they still go out and face the world. Charles Crumb was a just a coward.

Also, if his father was such a tyrant, why did he stay at his house? Why did he choose to live under his father's roof for his entire life? In his journals it reveals that his father lived at that house for many, many years after Charles gave up on life. Very strange, given how supposedly abusive he was and how much Charles feared and loathed him. Easy life.

[–] SeussMeTub 9 years ago

Charles had obvious severe mental issues. While I agree that his mother overprotected him one cant really judge others unless they themselves experienced it, the fact that his younger brother Maxon also has issues pretty much means it the damage wasnt just something Charles had to deal with by himself. Robert himself is pretty much borderline but he has a wife and kid to keep him somewhat on the level.

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DIE, FANBOY, DIE 

[–] amywilson-09197 9 years ago

Everyone has mental illness to some degree. Was he so zonked out by medication that he couldn't be a technical writer or illustrator for a textbook company or something? Probably not. Unlike someone with severe schizophrenia (the kind where you are basically on a bad acid trip your entire life and can barely take care of yourself), he was capable enough to get on with his life. I guess what irks me the most, is that his flawed and hypocritical reasoning seemed to be the foundation for his philosophy of being a recluse.

And, in the process, he behaved like someone who was going through the biggest trauma imaginable when in reality everything revealed in the film that was supposedly the source of the trauma are things that most people experience - sexual hang-ups, bullying, physical abuse, depression. IMHO, his attitude was kind of an insult to veterans, rape victims, prisoners of war, victims of extremist dictatorships, people who experience racism/sexism/etc.

He's definitely fascinating, but I can't empathize with someone who is obviously smart enough to avoid letting their mental illness define them, but chooses not to just to have an easy life. At least Maxon, with his horror stories of molesting random women, chose to live in the world and makes the best of his situation. And he's a successful artist now who is only limited by the fact that he seems to prefer living with as little as possible.

[–] SeussMeTub 9 years ago

He's definitely fascinating, but I can't empathize with someone who is obviously smart enough to avoid letting their mental illness define them, but chooses not to just to have an easy life.

I think Charles became a recluse not for an easy life but to protect others from himself- he stated during the movie that he wanted at one time to kill his brother and the reason why he died was he felt that he had dangerous pedophile thoughts and might act on it. In the end he felt he was a danger to society so he decided to off himself.

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DIE, FANBOY, DIE 

[–] amywilson-09197 9 years ago

Maybe in Charles' mind that's what he intended, but when you look at everything shown about him in the movie plus his journals it doesn't add up. He said his problematic sexual desires were completely dead, so why stay a recluse if you have no desires to act out on? Also, in his journals, assuming he was being totally honest, he makes it a point to emphasize his bullying while growing up and how it caused him to fear everything. His reasoning for staying indoors and not working seems to center around a fear that the "vigilantes" would find him and "kick him around like a football."

He concludes by saying he stays in his house and opts to live in institutions when possible because "nobody wants to be kicked around like a football." There is some reason there for sure, but I can't help but wonder if he's not overexaggerating. He's smarter than most humans, so he could easily play the workplace game and just show up, talk about *beep* and live on his own. Not saying that being a recluse is unethical, but I just didn't get his reasoning. Still baffled that he chose to live in the same house as his father for so long - the man who was apparently his most viscous bully.

I'm not saying I don't think what he did was noble in many ways, but I doubt it was his only option regarding lifestyle and his motives don't seem to add up.

[–] SeussMeTub 9 years ago

Again, what alternatives did he have? He had a choice of either living as a recluse or to try to fit into society, he was smart enough to realize he couldnt do the latter because he felt he was a danger to society (and vice versa) and the former couldnt last so he came up with a third alternative- kill himself- and he did.

Its a pity that Charles died and couldnt live with his demons- it seemed to me he was the smartest among the brothers and only shows me that he had horrible parents which did nothing to help his paranoia and bipolar issues. But then again, I believe that if Charles did try to adjust to society he would have ended up as a serial killer or underage rapist and the fact that he chose to kill himself rather than become a monster speaks for itself.

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DIE, FANBOY, DIE 

[–] amywilson-09197 9 years ago

He grew up to be a very intelligent and ethical person, so I don't see how controlling himself in public would be an issue - He obviously was never a psychopath. A psychopath would have harmed someone. My best guess is he wanted an easier life, was a total nihilist, or lacked the deception ability that would help him hide his sickness and knew that most of society would see him and potentially go on a witch hunt. But the latter seems unlikely due to his intelligence.

[–] moviefool09 9 years ago

To the OP- I just can't see how watching a couple of hours on film of this guy's life leads you to make a blanket statement of not empathizing with him. Can his whole life be summed up and passed off for judgment in a couple of hours?

Come on.

Despite the information we get in the film, I think there's plenty more to Charles than we see. I wouldn't put myself in the position of judging the merits of a poor soul like him, just because I saw him on-screen for 20 minutes (maybe less or maybe more, during the course of the film).

"The future is tape, videotape, and NOT film?"

[–] amywilson-09197 9 years ago

I'm also going by his journals, which you can read online and in a book edited my Maxon.

I don't think I'm being judgemental. I am simply reacting to the film and the subjects. I know that there are probably things about Charles that nobody but the Crumbs know about, but given that Robert and Terry like Charles (say what you will about the man, but you can't dislike him that much - he is not egotistical whatsoever and has a good sense of humor) and seem to care about his legacy as an artist WHILE being as honest as possible about him in the process, I get the feeling that if they left anything out of the film or any interviews mentioning Charles, it is because it either didn't help his case or couldn't help his case.

So, unless Charles was displaying an elaborate persona and his life shown in the film was a form of performance art, there is enough info to go by in and outside of the film to give you a detailed picture of why he chose to be a recluse. And if there was a more severe reason for him not being able to have a job or leave the house it was a careless choice for the brothers or for Terry to not inform the viewer about it.

Sometimes adults living a child's lifestyle can be understandable - some people have severe medical conditions and disabilities which make leaving the house nearly impossible. That was not the case with Charles, and if you read between the lines of the information offered in the film and in his journals you start to sense the bigger picture - he is a coward, might have sick ulterior reasons for living at home for so long, or is unable to acknowledge his privileges and the fact that his choice to live as a recluse in his abusive childhood home was just that - a choice, and one that stems from wanting to live a safe, comfortable life over one with actual challenges and REAL suffering.

[–] maturity 9 years ago

It is ridiculous to judge him by a few short clips on the movie and some excerpts of his notebooks which are probably hundreds of volumes. Even if you read every thing he wrote and heard everything he said you could not tell everything that was going on in his mind.

You say anyone would love to just sit at home and read, to not work. Most people will get bored of that eventually and probably sooner than later. What you say shows a lot more about your own hang-ups and desires than for Charles. Maybe you would love to sit at home and just read, but I challenge you to spend all free time doing so and tell us how long it is enjoyable. He wasn't even reading new books, but re-reading old ones. Maybe he felt there was nothing worthwhile out side. All three of the brothers had tendencies to sexual abuse and assault probably but Robert poured it out in his comics while the others acted on it or wallowed in it mentally. Your posts amount to the same old pathetic lie that people who commit suicide are cowards. Most people are too afraid to risk committing suiicde thanks to religious indoctrination and fear-mongering. To say they're cowards is like saying gay people are cowards or adulterers or murderers. In what way is his sin any worse than yours? It's cowardly to condemn people as cowards who are unhappy and have no hope or joy or meaning holding on for decades and taking desperate measures to end their suffering and pain.

[–] SeussMeTub 9 years ago

I totally agree, I have no respect for people who sit back and judge others.

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DIE, FANBOY, DIE 

[–] maturity 9 years ago

Everyone has their own breaking point and tolerance to stress. Also the experience of psychotic delusions under schizophrenia can be severe and massive like years in concentration camp being raped and tortured compressed into minutes or hours of imagination and thoughts that seem totally real. It is like the brain goes to war against itself - and you can go around in circles tearing yourself apart with escalating negative thoughts and delusions. You couldn't begin to put this down in a journal while it was happening it remember it all later. A genius like Charles may suffer worse because they are more imaginative. I think Amy Wilson has a point about Charles being the most intelligent and IMO imaginative of the three brothers. Look at his art test and the weird styles he came up with. But eventually words took over and drowned out the comic characters.

Some schizophrenics never hear voices but their own thoughts come alive and seem totally real even if they are built on lies like misheard song lyrics and imagined scenes from movies that never happened. They create an elaborate but unstable fantasy world taking bits and pieces from reality to construct some plot against them but it can also seem like every movie, tv show, or radio song is about them or talking directly to them. Taking a bunch of medication may just pacify them so they don't act out or speak as much but that doesn't mean they're not still suffering as much or more silently. They might very well feel like they are in prison even if others think they are a privileged genius who can do anything they set their mind to. On the opposite spectrum are people like Helen Keller and Stephen Hawking who seem to live in a hell but they overcome it because of luck and the right environment and support.

[–] moviefool09 9 years ago

I certainly wouldn't want anyone to judge me solely because I appeared on-screen for 20 minutes and wrote some diary entries. Heck, Charles himself probably didn't understand himself.

So why should anyone else presume to fully understand him?

People are complex creatures. While I enjoyed the glimpse into this rather disturbing family, it would be wrong of me to think I understand this guy, inside and out.

You got a slice of him. That's all.

"The future is tape, videotape, and NOT film?"

[–] maturity 9 years ago

There is no way amy wilson read everything he wrote. He probably wrote as many notebooks as the killer in the movie Seven (John Doe) - all in microscopic print and often illegible with no punctuation or spaces. As I recall, in one of the commentaries, Terry said that the movie Seven copied the notebook style from Charles' notebooks in this movie. It is commonly seen among schizophrenics like Charles. Even if she had read all that he ever wrote and heard everything he ever said she wouldn't have more than a sketch of his mind and life experiences. He probably forgot 10 times as much stuff. People with paranoid schizophrenia + psychosis can suffer more even with loving family and friends than someone in a concentration camp being tortured and hang raped, because they can imagine worse and every thought no matter how extreme seems real.

[–] maturity 9 years ago

Well, all this shows is that you lack empathy and real knowledge of mental illness. Millions of people are on disability like Charles undoubtedly was and viewed as unable to work by doctors (psychiatrists, psychologists) and judges, who declare them as disabled. Their cases are regularly reviewed. Apparently, you think you know more than all these people. Your uninformed or callous opinions are perhaps typical of the general public, but no less heartless and flawed. To say every one is a bit mentally ill compared to a paranoid schizophrenia is an insane view. And being on medication does not render all people less disturbed or able to work. It makes a lot worse with mental and physical side effects over time - read Peter Breggin, Irving Kirsch, and others.

Maybe Robert turning his back on his brother is a more relevant factor in his suicide. Plus the movie making all his problems a matter of public ridicule and scorn such as you own. People like you can drive others to suicide and condemn them in the grave. I hope Jesus does not condemn troubled and awkward people like Chatles or Maxon or Robert or anyone else in the world but loves and reconciles them to himself in the fullness of time. I pray that you consider the attitude of your posts and of your life and its effect on weak or troubled people

[–] maturity 9 years ago

Prove that he had any choice. People can't just choose to be happy, despite your propaganda saying so. They are stuck feeling empty and not interested in anything, and medications dull their minds more. He was not any genius after being on Haldol or Thorazine or whatever he was zonked out on. Not every quadriplegic has the mind or interests of Stephen Hawking to succeed. Far more probably commit suicide or barely get by with aid from family and the state.

To hold up someone like Hawking and say anyone can do that well is like holding up Helen Keller - who came from a rich family and had a special tutor. Imagine she was in Charles's family, what would have happened to her? What happened to the Crumb sisters who refused to be interviewed for the film? Are they happily married with well-adjusted kids or heroin junkies or prostitutes or neurotics with a house full of cats and no friends? If you had ever experienced severe mental illness you wouldn't casually say anyone can pull themselves up by their boot straps. Some people have no boots and no legs. Let's see them pull themselves up without all kinds of love and support from family and friends. And what if they can't make friends and have no love from their family? Then what?

There is no contra-causal free will according to many philosophers. Certainly you can't prove there is. Many greater minds than you have failed to do so. What if you're wrong? What if everything that happens had to happen or was simply random? Neither allows for any freedom. Every thought and desire you had, every will you acted on was no more avoidable than gravity and chemistry and electro-magnetic and other laws. That's the view many scientists hold and can't be disproven. It is possible we have contra-causal free will but you can not give any experiment to prove it. It is Unfalsifiable in other words, just like your claim that Charles was just a coward based on a few clips of him and excerpts of his notebooks. You don't know 1% of what he experienced or what was going on in his brain. Maybe he had forgot 10 times more than he wrote down or said.

I hate people who claim everyone suffers and hurts as much as the mentally ill. That is their ignorant atitude. It is not the truth. One can suffer more sitting alone at home or even with friends and family than victims of a concentration camp or gang rape or any other violence and you have no clue what you are talking about at all. Go back to your suffering daily grind and don't pretend to know how people like Charles suffer. You just want to take out your anger at your boss on someone else I would guess. You haven't felt a fraction of the pain that schizophrenics and clinically depressed have suffered.

[–] amywilson-09197 9 years ago

I have sympathy for those suffering from mental illness. But it seems unlikely that Charles has severe schizophrenia based on the information provided, or at least a form of schizophrenia that would prevent you from living on your own.

Schizophrenics who truly suffer experience hallucinations much of the time with no way to stop it. Its like a random bad acid trip that you can't stop. I've met people suffering from severe schizophrenia and their mind is just so far gone they can't even communicate on a basic level.

Also, I don't claim to know everything about Charles, but I don't see how its unreasonable to react to the conclusions about him that Terry and Robert try to present to the viewer (according to them, his reason for being a recluse is "all about" the fact that he is a closet pedophile). It's explicitly stated as an explanation/reason for his lifestyle. My point is, I don't feel like the movie or any of his published journals do a good job providing information that reinforces why his decision to give up on life was his only option.

Nothing revealed to the public paints a picture of charles as anyone but a guy who chose an easier life over one that requires him overcoming hardships. Everyone has been bullied. Many of us have been abused by family. But I can't feel a lot of sympathy for someone who wallows in their victimhood instead of making an effort to appreciate life.

Because it is such an insult to those who really do suffer - Transgender teens who are exiled from home and live in the streets, kids who grow up in the projects or in oppressive communities or countries, people with cancer or AIDS, people who have brain damage or are paralyzed, victims who have locked-in syndrome where they are conscious but their entire body is paralyzed, rape victims, victims of terrorism and genocidal monsters, people who experience generational pain from living in societies with institutionalized oppression, etc.

Many who suffer from truly debilitating and traumatic experiences and conditions like those often still find the strength to live life. Why couldn't Charles Crumb?

[–] amywilson-09197 9 years ago

and I find it funny that those criticizing me for being judgemental are jumping to conclusions of their own.

I suffer from mental illness. I am also a closet ephebophile. I am also native american. I am also on strong medication that has killed my sex drive. I have no ability to have sex. My culture is dead and mocked. I have been violently attacked many times, and have been sexually abused by my uncle.

And yet, I still have no choice but to manage the stress and pain and show up to my construction job every day and work my ass off so bad I have developed chronic back pain. So when I see this man with rare artistic abilities mope and drown in his own self pity due to being "picked on" by highschool kids and a "sadistic bully" father who he chose to live under the same roof with for the rest of his life, I have to wonder, WTF? I can't help but feel envious of his comfortable position in life and fascinated by his contradictory behavior. What a sad man.

[–] moviefool09 9 years ago

Amy- I am genuinely sorry to hear about your plight. It sounds like you've had/are having a very difficult life. For that, I honestly have empathy for you.

But I just want to say that others, even those who seem to have so much, often have so little. It's virtually impossible to go into someone's mind and "know" them. Heck, some husbands and wives who've been together 40 years get divorced, some after feeling they "never really knew" their spouse. I've heard of this from relatives and friends, all the time.

Your perception is that Charles had a talent and squandered it, leaving little sympathy for him. The truth is, neither you nor me nor anyone else will truly ever really know what demons Charles faced....much as perhaps few know what kind of demons *you* face. What's that biblical passage about judging other people?

Some of what we perceive about Charles may be true, from watching "Crumb" and some may not. But I think it's always best to err on the side of sympathy, rather than judgment. Always try to think of kindness first, even when it perhaps may not be deserved.

I wish you well and hope things get better for you.

"The future is tape, videotape, and NOT film?"

[–] amywilson-09197 9 years ago

Apologies if I sound like I'm coming from a judgemental place. In my mind it is more like one of total bewilderment. I just can't grasp what reasons left that man to give up on life and wallow in pity. The information in the movies and books is not enough to paint a picture for me that seems reasonable, personally. Sorry.

[–] moviefool09 9 years ago

No apology necessary! :)

"The future is tape, videotape, and NOT film?"

[–] usernamegoatse 9 years ago

I tend to agree with amy. I watched this movie based on a recommendation, and it was definitely interesting and I don’t dislike any of the people in it, but I can’t really feel that much for Charles either. True, we may not know the whole story, but I think it’s fair to say one of the main reasons, if not THE main reason this film was made was to paint as detailed and nuanced a picture of that family as possible.

I know the director went through hell to make it, what with chronic back pain and a very limited budget and whatnot, but I have to say, if the goal, which it seems to be, was to portray Charles in sympathetic light, I feel like there is not enough info in the film or maybe serious flaws in Charles’ philosophy. I’m left with so many questions. Why does being a closeted pedophile with a clean conscience prevent him from working? Where does all the supposed pain and suffering come from when he literally has as much free time to lounge around and read books as possible? What is so insufferable about that? And when he has the skills and intelligence to actually be a successful artist, writer, journalist, etc.

He has so many advantages that many people who went through what he did and much worse don’t have, but many of them find the courage to live life and/or be activists and whatnot. And if his father was that much of a tyrant, why did he stay? In a deleted scene, Robert mentions that he actually offered Charles a place to stay with him and Marty Pahls. It was a free ticket out of that prison. He could stay there, branch out, avoid kids and *beep* etc. Why did he decline? I feel like Charles isn’t a bad person or anything, but kind of a whiner. Could've gotten over it, bro.

He might've said his medication prevented him from doing anything, but he was more than able to have an office job. I see this film, which seems to portray Charles as a victim of his surroundings, to which he is to an extent, but I see movies about victims of war crimes, bigotry, people who have locked-in syndrome and are totally conscious but can only move an eye, victims of rape and other forms of violence, etc…and I feel like I can only muster up a small amount of sympathy for the guy. All he had to do was be active, put his skills to use in a job, etc. He was more than capable of it. I wish I had the luxury of staying inside and reading and relaxing all day.

[–] Lord-Z 8 years ago

He was probably schizophrenic, possibly with some variation of OCD, in that he constantly feared either harming others or being harmed, and his obsessive drawing of wobbly lines. He was obsessed with Bobby Driscoll, for a while. And depression and a multitude of phobias followed.

He was no foolin' extremely mentally ill. He couldn't just "put on a convincing poker face", because severe mental illnesses aren't a hobby that you do during long winter nights. OCD doesn't sleep, phobias aren't quiet for the afternoon while you take a nap and schizophrenia rarely knocks off at closingtime. He was just busy trying to avoid becoming the monster he thought he might be.

[–] usernamegoatse 8 years ago

Yeah, I get the reasons the movie tried to give, but he lives a pretty easy life and I don't get why he acted like he bearing the cross of suffering and whatnot. Everyone is bullied. Many of us had abusive parents and come from dysfunctional families. The film didn't really show me anything that I felt warranted his whole "suffering wallflower" lifestyle. I wish I could retreat from the harsh realities of life and stay at home reading books all day instead of working all week and dealing with my mental health problems and problems provided by jerks and worrying about being in poverty and homeless one day. He had an easy life after his admittedly rough childhood and I didn't see much evidence in the film to suggest otherwise.

[–] 8 years ago

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[–] usernamegoatse 8 years ago

I don't claim to have known him well enough to judge him. I am basing an opinion of him on all of the information about him that publicly exists which is all any of us can do when discussing the guy. I was in over 30 fights I wanted no part in all before the age of 16. I was bullied all the time. My father threw mw across the room and I landed in a wooden rocking chair. There was sexual and emotional abuse. And as a person who is diagnosed with mental illness that causes hallucinations and delusional paranoia that I take medication for, medication that has destroyed my ability to have sex since age 27, not to mention my slight ephebophillic desires that even a dolt like me can keep a secret, I can't help but feel Charles is someone who seemed to be pretty functional to say the least. According to the film and his journals, our paths in life are very similar. He had a gift though - a more developed one that I ever had or will have - not to mention the intellect and emotional intelligence that would have helped him work at most places with no problem. Even without his trust fund inherited from his father, his likelihood of being legit homeless was very low. I have to dig my dick in the dirt doing landscaping every day and it sucks. He had mental battles, sure, as many of us do, but he was also a man of insane privilege who got to live a comfortable life, which is why I envy him more than feel bad for him.

[–] RobV27 7 years ago

I believe that there's a scene where Charles talked about how the father said fit him to get a job or get out.

I also remember him saying that he agreed to get a job because he didn't know what the father would do to Maxon if he was gone.

I seem to remember that but I can't go back and rewatch it right now.

[–] RobV27 7 years ago

Robert Crumb at one point said that he envied Charles' detachment from the world and Charles replied "believe me, it's not something to envy".

[–] grimesplaya 7 years ago

Being successful in the real world is hard. I envy Charles more than Robert because his life was very easy and privileged. You mean I never have to work or pay rent and just get to live at home and read books all the time instead because I was bullied growing up? I can deal with that just fine.

[–] TheGutterMonkey (292) 2 years ago

It's highly doubtful that you, or most other human beings, would enjoy that whatsoever. Thinking otherwise sounds like something akin to the arrival fallacy. Which is the mistaken belief that arriving at our goals will lead to happiness. When, in reality, it just leaves us feeling empty inside and not knowing what to do next.

People need goals to achieve. We need something to struggle against and obstacles to actively be trying to overcome. We need goals to try and progress towards. Whether this be in the form of a job, a family, climbing Everest, or whatever else. I'm not sure of the origin of that old saying, "It's about the journey, not the destination," but that about sums up the reality of life. It's like a video game, really. We only want to play when there's a sufficient amount of problems to solve. Once those are taken care of, we turn the thing off and look for a new game (and its new set of problems).

Sitting at home, doing nothing, with no feeling of forward momentum whatsoever isn't something that people enjoy. Regardless of how great it may sound. We'd feel as if we had no purpose in life. Existence would become meaningless to us and we'd have nothing to look forward to.