MovieChat Forums > Cobb (1994) Discussion > The Unspeakable Secret

The Unspeakable Secret

posted 20 years ago by Dan1863Sickles
24 replies | jump to latest

I love this movie, it is dark and tragic and brutally defies the conventional pieties about heroes and competition. I also find that with repeated viewings a dark Oedipal mystery unfolds. First Cobb claims his mother mistakenly shot his father when he was sneaking around the house checking up on her. Then Cobb admits that his mother really was cheating and that it was actually her young lover who shot his father.

What I want to know is -- did anyone else get the impression that Cobb hints that it was he himself who shot his father? And that he had committed incest with his mother? There are hints all through the film but nothing concrete. Cobb stresses that his mother was only twelve when she married his father, that she was "the most beautiful woman in the county." He also implies that his father was a fanatical Christian who neglected his wife and was away much of the time. When he describes the aftermath of the killing he says "a man should defend his mother at all times." Ostensibly he is referring to her trial, but might he not be hinting that he was the one who shot his father? And that he did so to prevent detection in the act of incest? It seems not much of a stretch to imagine that Cobb's unspeakable secret is that he has committed the ultimate sin and gotten away with it.

[–] 20 years ago

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[–] philadelphiarich 19 years ago

That implication--while it might sound farfetched--is certainly there; can't overlook the ever-present gun Cobb wields throughout the film... could be added symbolism supporting that theory.

[–] John_Mcdonough2002 17 years ago

It is an intresting theory but what is ironic is that in the movie while he experiences flashbacks when he discovers the hidden liquor and when Al Stump arrives at his lodge in Lake Tahoe, there are pictures of his mother on the walls. This would have never been the case, according too the biography he had pictures displayed in the house of his father but never had any of his mother and was not close too her.

[–] djsexxxmachine 19 years ago

this movie was designed to paint Cobb as a monster, hence the reason it glorifies Stump, the 'poor' writer who had to put up with terrible ty cobb(when in fact most sportswriters would jump at a chance like that) so it doesn't surprise me that there could be some of this symbolism in here designed to make us think that he was shacking up with his mom. The book that the movie was based on has nothing in it that would imply anything about incest. if any symbolism exists, it is the work of the director who wanted to portray cobb in the worst possible light. shouldn't come as a shock either, since cobb was such a racist, that hollywood would decide to throw in a little touch of incest to further impugne Cobb.

[–] sunseeker2000 19 years ago

Interesting theory about Cobb's relationship with his mother but Cobb could not have shot his father. At the time he was playing in the equivalent of AA ball in Augusta and on the night in question was at a public event (a dance) until very late in the evening. He woken by a telegram about nine the next morning from Royston (about 130 miles away) with the news. He might have run the bases at a speed only just below that of an Olympic sprinter but he wasn't that quick and even with train travel at that time (1905) it wasn't possible in the timeframe!!!
As to the movie I don't think it had to try that hard to make Cobb out a "monster"...he was widely perceived and reported as that in his own time and in a press far more deferential than it is today and with far less access (invited or not)to the professional and personal lives of players, no mass media coverage etc.

The man was the greatest hitter of all time, a genius in many ways, but he was a seriously unpleasant man in many aspects of his life. It has even been suggested he would qualify as genuinely "mentally ill/unstable" by some measures. I don't think that many of the "retrospective" elements of the film are in doubt since they are verifiable via sources independent of the Al Stump book. What is less certain however is how much Stump might have "exaggerrated" and "overplayed" his role/events both in articles he wrote and the book. Cobbs "last days" are only seen from the Stump "perspective" in the movie...and of course it's maybe not clear from the movie he didn't write his own version of them until 30 years later...and doesn't even in the foreward to the book really explain why quite such a long delay.

It is a standout movie about a fascinating and flawed genius raising the whole issue of how "greatness" in a chosen field doesn't and can never be assumed to come with automatic personal "goodness". But should be seen really as the "Al Stump take" for many of the scenes...a take which is not necessarily independently veriable as accurate and which has been subject to some doubts.

[–] greggynyds 19 years ago

One thing I took from the end of this movie, when Cobb and Stump are talking in the cemetery, is that Cobb is not a racist hateful jackass, but an entertainer. Cobb scolds Stump for using the word *beep* when it is a word that Cobb uses freely throughout the movie. This reminds me of the movie about how baseball was an entertaining game and the players acted like clowns before Cobb showed up, but he turned the game into a serious sport. People would show up to every game to boo Cobb because he was an *beep* and that put people in the seats.

What my idea doesn’t explain though, is if it all really is an act, why does his family hate him?

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] davie4u 17 years ago

It wasn't an act. He was a racist and hateful. His family hated him because he basically neglected them his entire life. He would spend his off-seasons traveling and hunting without any of his family around. I doubt his kids spent more than a year with him during their time growing up. They were financially provided for, but pretty much ignored otherwise.

[–] TylerDurden13 17 years ago

No one is doubting his racism. That's a non-issue. His family may have hated him because he was so consumed with competition. Whether it was baseball, hunting, stock trading, or gambling. He wanted to be the best at everything and second-best was not an option. Cobb is not someone that could be tied down with things like a families. They were probably better off as Cobb was a poor sport and a terrible father-figure. Would you want someone like him around your family?

The things you own end up owning you.

[–] Ken4Pyro 8 years ago

"He was a racist and hateful"

Like *beep* You can't find any significant scholarly investigative reporting that even remotely comes close to the crap that Stump wrote, conveniently after Cobb died. Read the statement Cobb made in 1952 about the pending integration of the Texas League, published in The Sporting News, where Cobb noted quite clearly that blacks should be allowed to play organized baseball if they had the ability to do so at the professional level. Won't find anything like in Stump's toilet paper book, or the movie. That's because they didn't bother with a tiny concept called, "The Truth". Cobb also noted that Willie Mays was the only ballplayer he'd actually pay to see play the game.

"His family hated him because he basically neglected them his entire life"

Like *beep* All you have to do in order to find out how false that is would be to read the book by his grandson, Herschel Cobb. Ignored his family? Prove it with something other than the fiction penned by Stump.

"I doubt his kids spent more than a year with him during their time growing up."

Like *beep* Cobb's efforts on the part of his son Ty, Jr. to assist him in defeating the younger man's troubles with alcohol and criminal behavior, not to mention the financial support to send his so to two different Ivy League schools, both of which Jr. drank himself out of. Later on, Cobb, Jr. became a doctor, and built an excellent practice before dying prematurely of a brain tumor at 42, with his father by his side.

In short, friend, you think you know something about Cobb because you watched a film adaptation of a cheap hack drunk sportswriter's vivisection of a man's life. Stump's only claim to fame was how viciously he attacked Cobb. You'll hear people today, yourself included repeating this *beep* as though Moses carried it down from Sinai carved in stone by God.

It's crap friend. Pure *beep* from minute one. And you bought into it, and repeated it as though it was fact. How does that make you feel?

[–] John_Mcdonough2002 17 years ago

What I found intresting about the movie is that while he is in the hospital differs much from what happened in real life. He never had a real easy relationship with anyone in his family, however his last surviving son, daughter and one of his ex wives were all present in his last moments. From what i could gather from the book Al Stump wrote, his one son preferred too play tennis and admired a gay tennis player at the time rather than pursue baseball and admire his father, the same son nearly flunked out of college until Ty beat him with a belt in his dorm room. As far as his daughter was concerned it was the way he treated his wives all of which divorced him.

[–] TylerDurden13 19 years ago

sunseeker,

That was brilliant. I was going to post the same thing you said in the first paragraph, but you went on and made excellent points. I agree with you completely.

I think Stumpy
waited so long to write the other version because he was fighting his own demons. He had the impending split from his wife, among other things, then he had to worry about his inner feelings about writing a scathing book about the symbol for the greatest athlete he had ever seen. Cobb was a god in those days and the media was not like it is today. Sure bad stuff is written about Michael Jordan but look how fans defend him and think he hung the moon. Why? Because people like Cobb, MJ, and John Elway are the examples of winners that can do no wrong. Yes, these men are flawed, have made several errors in their lives, and may not be shimmering knights we see on the stages. But we defend them because they can do what so few people have the capability to do... perform in the face of failure. We fear failure while these guys seemingly spit in its face and steamroll the competition in their wake.

Misunderstood... as genuis always is.

The things you own end up owning you.

[–] davie4u 17 years ago

Cobb was a genuis, but still a racist and psychotic man.

[–] professorchaos_54 17 years ago

He was from Georgia. OF COURSE he was sleeping with his mother.

[–] thetallcool1 17 years ago

Great.........there was an intelligent, articulate discussion about journalism, theories of what really happened, and how athletes are put on pedestals, and professorchaos has to come along and lower the IQ level by about 75 points. I'm sure you're leaning back in your chair smiling smugly at how clever you think your statement was. I feel dumber having responded to you.

[–] professorchaos_54 17 years ago

I am truly sorry that I offended ... Okay, I'll wait while you get that customer a Venti Mocha Latte ... as I was saying, I am truly sorry that I offended you by that comment.

But, let me just suggest that you drop the pseudo-intellectual, neo-liberal crap, along with your Phish records, and lighten up. Then maybe you can leave the University and/or your underpaying menial job and learn that life doesn't have to be as serious as Birkinstock sociology professor thinks it is.

[–] thetallcool1 17 years ago

Oh, I get it, you think that I'm one of these ponytailed, tie-dyed, big ugly black glasses wearing, wannabe film snob intellectuals who work in a coffeehouse and think that because I'm in school, I'm ever so more enlightened than those of you who live in the plastic commercial world. Wow, how well do you know me?

Not even close, as it turns out. I'm certainly not an instigator, someone who puts a negative post on a thread and then leans back with a smirk to enjoy the negative and irate posts that will soon follow. I actually try to read all of what is written before I post a comment, and when I do, it is not simply to see what kind of s**t I can start. I actually tracked down your previous posts, and read what I could before I started to get nauseous. Still harboring a lot of resentment for the jocks that pushed you into lockers not so long ago, aren't you? Don't wory, with age comes more confidence, and soon, that stripper you saw the other night, the one who really liked you (she really really did!), will let you "take her away from all this and show her a better life." But before that happens, I would suggest moving out of your grandmother's basement, abandoning your weekly dungeons and dragons games, throwing away all of your Star Trek collectibles (or try e-bay), and join the REAL WORLD like the rest of us. It's mean, it's cruel, and it sucks. You'll love it.

Oh, I'm sorry........was I making a comment on what I think your life is so as to embarass you maybe, or get some kind of gleeful thrill out of being a sarcastic p*i*k? Certainly you don't think that you hold a patent on that type of negativity, do you? But, I don't want to make any type of blanket statements about you, because as someone once said: "people who make blanket statements suck." And he is a true horse's a*s..........isn't he? Or does that sound familiar?

"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!"

[–] dharmabum 17 years ago

*beep* the implication. There is no shred of evidence to suggest Cobb's father died in anything but an accident resulting from his paranoia about his wife's faithfulness. To not just suggest, but assert otherwise, the film is irresponsible and untruthful. Cobb was an *beep* but the movie's assertion that he was a raping, *beep* patricide is beyond irresponsible, and just plain slanderous. It makes me more angry and sick than any other movie I can think of.

[–] supafly707 17 years ago

I loved this movie, thought Jones deserved an Oscar nom, but honestly how can so many people who condemn it because it "puts Cobb in a bad light." The guy was a terrible person: racist, hateful to his teammates, once beat up a crippled man, sharpened his spikes before games and then slid with his feet lifted up, had rumors around him that murdered someone (not his father). It was not an act, and he was not doing it to entertain. Don't be naive.

Cobb WAS A TERRIBLE PERSON. I'm guessing some of these people are Tigers fans, and it is "irresponsible" of you for giving someone a free pass just because they were "on your side." If you tried talking to Cobb today (if he were still alive...at like 130...) he would probably tell you to *beep* off. He would not have cared about you so you don't have to defend him.

Sure he was a great, one of the top five players of all time (4th in my book), but that does not negate his *beep* This is coming from a life-long Giants fan, where I've had Bonds on "my side" for all these years. Sure he has been a great player throughout his career, steroids aside, but he is still a jerk. In the end, are we really paying to see a nice guy go out there and shake hands, or someone who's going to win games for you? That said, just because you like someone as a player does not give you the right to irresponsibly defend them if they are really jerkoffs. Cobb all time great player, even bigger jerk.

However, he did say sometime toward the end of his life that "I wished I had more friends." Perhaps at the end he realized that he had alienated everyone around him, and he would have had a happier life had he not.

[–] dharmabum 17 years ago

I'm not a Tigers fan. Not even a bit. (Dodgers FTW, for the record). I think Cobb was a great baseball player, more for his dedication and fire, not his natural born skills, but that's neither here nor there in terms of what this film asserted.

He was a racist, unquestionably, yet many born in the South in the 19th century were as well. He was sometimes difficult as a teammate, but not much more than many of his contemporaries. He played in a time where a new hot prospect meant finding a job on the railway, these guys made little money and had no job security, so hostility towards the rookies was par for the course.

He once beat up a cripple in the stands, but the "cripple" (a guy missing a hand, hardly a wheelchair-bound invalid as is so often implied) was insulting him in a fashion beyond offensive for the time and to a man who grew up in Cobb's world, and his teammates fully supported him. That he sharpened his spikes before games is generally considered urban legend (though the legend helped other players fear him, and he probably encouraged it), and while he sometimes slid with spikes up, even the man in the most famous Cobb spiking photo fully admitted, "He had the base path, I was in his way, I didn't move fast enough, and I can't fault him." Read "The Glory of Their Times".

He was unquestionably a terrible person, in many ways, and I have no liking for him as a man, beyond the (possibly apocryphal) story of him still admiring Shoeless Joe all those years later.

But for this film to assert that he had sex with his mother and killed his father in jealousy without any verifiable evidence is WAY beyond decency. Show some *beep* perspective.

[–] joegod69 12 years ago

this really bothered me about this movie. if you're making a movie about a real person you shouldn't make drastic changes to their life for dramatic purposes. if their life isn't dramatic enough without major changes, make a different movie or change their name and just make fiction. cobb was nowhere near his house when his father was killed. to imply that he was there and maybe was the shooter for drama's sake is just wrong.

[–] The_Dying_Flutchman 12 years ago

And here, after all these years, I thought the reason Cobb was such a fatuous turd was because he was not properly taught how to use his potty.

Obtained from the liver of the inflatable mongoose.

[–] GeorgiaDixie 9 years ago

Just thought I'd add in my two cents. I never got that idea until I read it here on IMDb. I can see where that could be implied, but I'm sure many (if not most) did not get that implication. Also, since the implication is obviously untrue, I really hope that was not the point the movie was trying to get across, since I agree that if any drastic changes are made in a biopic, that it is no longer a "biopic".

Courage is being scared to death- and saddling up anyway

[–] slidell333 8 years ago

I also loved this film since it came out, also. I never thought he MAY have shot his mother..interesting theory. In Europe, particularly the UK, I read a lot of praise of this film. They thought it was a great look into the mind of such a complicated man (I used to read all the odd magazines in the College Library when I was killing time). Think one publication put it as a top 5 film of the year.

May I add that the film is just that...a film. Not historically accurate. I've had two biographies on Cobb and I researched Cobb a lot in the college library, reading Life magazine articles and such from the 50's...he donated a ton of his money, built hospitals, and gave many different interviews were he stated he was for baseball's integration. And I'm not so sure all the stuff about his direct family is accurate. I did what research I could but it was hard to dig up much about them.