MovieChat Forums > Sniper (1993) Discussion > I thought snipers always went for the he...

I thought snipers always went for the head?


From what I've read (Andy McNab, Eric Haney, Tom Clancy) I thought snipers always tried to go for the head where possible, especially if the target was stationary. A headshot provides a certain kill, whereas with a bodyshot, while easier, a kill is not guaranteed. Now I realise that a headshot may be impossible to achieve over a certain distance, but in the movie, especially in the hacienda scene and where Zane was tasked to take out an enemy in the river, the targets were near enough, and more importantly, they were relatively stationary. Is it because of the gruesome nature of the headshot? Maybe they didn't have the technology to show it? Or just a plain mistake?

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you can pretty much kill a target if you aim for their heart as you can see on the hacienda sceane when billy is in the barn he clearly aims for the heart most likely that guy was not wearing body armor they normnely do aim for the head but he did not have a good shot cause the womans head was in the way.

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You shoot for what is called the "vital T"..... imagine a big T starting at the center of the eyes and the lentgh of the T goes down the body..... Severing the spinal cord also is good at the neck region with a shot.. especially if a hostage is involved.... prevents the final signal from the mind to reach the hands which could then pull the trigger......






I'm right your wrong, get over it......

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From my knowledge a sniper aims for the chest. It doesn't bounce around like a limb, and it doesn't move quickly like a head. Some you aim for the chest in the Vital T as someone else put it.

www.stevealten.tk
Your leading source for Steve Alten news.

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And, keep in mind, sniper rounds tend to do a hellacious amount of damage, both from size of round and velocity. Some sniper rifles are chambered as large as .50 caliber, a bullet that you can use as a doorstop (it's huge). With a .50 cal. sniper rifle, a sniper can shoot thru an armored (light) vehicle from a literal mile away and still take out a target on the other side. My point is that it won't matter where on the "T" (or anywhere else on the body for that matter) the sniper puts the round, there's going to be a massive hole which goes all the way thru the body. The most talented trauma team in the world couldn't save the target if a football sized hole has just appeared in his torso. (And even if the bullet isn't a thru and thru, it's going to shred a fair chunk of tissue inside the target. Massive internal bleeding that not even the best equipped surgeon could repair before the target bled out.)

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You still attempt to aim for the chest.

www.stevealten.tk
Your leading source for Steve Alten news.

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Well I agree and disagree...... if the person is alone and just standing there, sure a chest shot will work... but if the person has a hostage (Which I kow is not the case in this movie) then the head shot is the choice, you do that to stop the electrical impulse from the brain from being sent to say the hand, which could be holding a weapon to someone else's head. The body just shuts off, no reflex squeeze from the shock of the round hitting the body. The bad guy will collapse and the chance of rescue is increased dramaticlly.

I saw a great clip where a bad guy had a hostage and the negotiator got him to say the word no. As he said it the shooter fired, the round went through the guys mouth and exited the back of his head, severing the spinal cord. Bad guy down hostage rescued.

So yea it depends on the situation.



I'm right your wrong, get over it......

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Military snipers generally go for "center mass" (the chest)... police/swat snipers are trained to shoot the eye... Right behind the eye is the "opcipital nerve" (sp???)... once that nerve cluster is severed or otherwise destroyed, ALL body movement ceases... if you shoot a man in the chest, or head, or pretty much anyway, the muscles throughout the body can and will switch or jerk -- if the suspect has a gun to someones head, the muscles in the hand can twitch and pull the trigger... but if the nerve behind the eye is destroyed, all muscle movement ceased instantly, there is no voluntary or involuntary muscle movement from that point on...

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Where did you get this from? The eye? Really? Not to be too overbearing about the point being made but the optical nerve has nothing to do with the brain function. The area you're trying to describe is the base of the brain, the central nervous system. Once that area is damaged the body ceases to function. It's not behind the eye. If someone is facing you and their head is level with your head then their CNS is located behind the area between the teeth and the nose on the back side of the skull, directly above the spinal column.

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Dude was talking about the occipital nerve, not the optical nerve. Just fluffed the spelling...
;)

--Myk

I'm probably being sarcastic...

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I would aim for the central nervous system. A forehead shot wouldn't do it for me, I would aim where the spine connects to the medulla. Thats a vital area because that area controls everything within the body from breathing, movement, and heart rate. However, a chest shot is always good too.

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From what I've heard, you can't always execute a headshot when there is a hostage/civillian close to the target.
Reason is, parts of the skull have been known to blast off at high speed, these 'bits' can puncture the eyes or neck of near by people.

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nope. at least marines dont. they aim for the chest. largest target on the body. hit a lung, dead. hit the heart, dead. liver, dead. stomach, die a little while later, most of the time.

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for a head shot to be an effective kill it must peice and inflict damage on the brain or spinal colum, this is only the top half of the head roughly only
30%. snipers in the army be it marines, austrlain army whatever are trained to aim for the heart due to the fact that it provides a larger impact area rather than the head. this head shot stuff you see is all james bond garbage- its not just a matter of putting the cross hair on the targets head, you have to callculate, windage, fall of shot, elevation, wind speed e.t.c which is why the heart is the prefered impact point.
besides the weapon billy zane was using is a 5.56mm, 5.56mm may be smaller than 7.62 but it was designed spin violently when impacting a target causeing maximum damage rather than in most cases going through the target such as 7.62.
however the rifle tom berenger uses is 7.62mm, and when aimed at the heart would have a small entry wound but a very large exit wound, if aimed at the heart it would probly take out the lung, heart and most probly the enitre right side ot the tourso and smashing the ribs and spine.
but for the fans of the much favoured .50cal barret ...well that a much more graphic story all together

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Some SWAT and HRT(Hostage Rescue Team) snipers will use Glaser rounds, a hollow point bullet filled with 330 mini projectiles (#12 chilled lead shot) that are suspended in liquid Teflon, and when the bullet strikes something, the shot will disperse in a cone pattern that destroys flesh and bone, so you could shoot a tango in the pinkie, and most likly the resultins shock will incapactate him, permenantly. Its is used when raiding meth labs, where the suspects could be contaninated with AIDS from sharing and reusing needles, but will charge the team empty handed, because he is to out of it to know his own strength, so he will be still charging even though he was wounded with a plain bullet. The bullet saves team lives and makes a really gruesome scene.

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA,....What a bunch of 'sick' individual's!!!! I love it! KAPOWFOW!!!

The Smoker You Drink, The Player You Get!

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[deleted]


Blow Me Punk! Before I hunt you down and skin ya' alive!

The Smoker You Drink, The Player You Get!

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[deleted]

well at least now you're laughing,...how about cuttin' out the name calling?

The Smoker You Drink, The Player You Get!

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Billy Zane's weapon is a HK G3* series rifle, it most certainly is 7.62x51. That's why Berenger unchambers his rifle when he's caught... Zane is out of ammo because he's an idiot and this was all the help Berenger could offer.

And fans of the Barrett should try hiking a few miles with that on their back (never mind an alice pack or anything else a real world sniper would be outfitted with during a week or so in the field) before they start talking about how much better of a rifle it is compared to a M24 or a HK G3 rifle.

* Before anyone starts crying about me calling it a G3... yes, I know it's a SR9 or PSG90 or MSG3 or any of the other buttload of rifles that HK delivered in that timeframe that were derivatives of the G3. The topic has been beaten to death and the further discussion of it is pretty much moot.

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Snipers are trained to aim for center mass. Anyone who says otherwise is misinformed.

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Headshots are easily possible out to 800 yards or so, depending on the shooter, weapon system, weather conditions, etc. The distance wasn't a factor here. But to answer your question, there would be a few times when a sniper would opt to go for a body shot. Simply wounding, and not killing, an enemy soldier has been used in wars throughout history as an effective technique. Wound the man severely, but not kill him, and then his buddies will come to get him. This almost guarantees you another kill. As for the reasons in this movie, we can only speculate. There's a big difference between reel life and real life.

Also, somebody mentioned police snipers. Police officers in charge of high precision fire are called Sharpshooters, not Snipers. But that's a whole other topic.

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Headshot is the best shot. But when they get a shot they have to take it whether it's the head or not. I know somone who uses a .50 Caliber Sniper Rifle that could probably pluck someone off from about three miles or so if the shot is good.

I am a sniper in airsoft and I use a UHC Super 9. Snipers just take the shot that is given to them.

to see the .50 cal go here
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.specwarnet.com/europe/SwedishSOF7_Arctic_ranger_Barret.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.specwarnet.com/europe/swedish_sof_gallery.htm&h=338&w=400&sz=63&tbnid=N2fDB_Sc6wjo9M:&tbnh=101&tbnw=120&hl=en&start=7&prev=/images%3Fq%3D.50%2BCaliber%2BSniper%2BRifle%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

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anyway the film was not realistic one bit to be honest!!!

sometimes they had camo face paint on other times it had gone then it came back again
and what about when the older bloke goes into the barn at the hacienda to save billy zane cos hes been spotted, his camo suit had dissapeared!!!!


the film had no realism what so ever
i could write a whole list of things they did wrong "as snipers"

but im sure most of you know

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originally posted by cobramaster12000: "I know somone who uses a .50 Caliber Sniper Rifle that could probably pluck someone off from about three miles or so if the shot is good."


Um, NO, you don't.

And you never will. The odds of you winning the lottery 10 times in a row are better than someone "plucking someone off" from over 5,000 yards away. Shots of 1,000 yards are hard. VERY hard. 1,200 to 1,500 yards are unbelievably difficult. At 1,500 yards, you're fortunate to keep the shots within a 30-45 inch circle using a perfect rifle on a windless day.

5,280 yards? BwahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's a good one. Hey, pull the other leg; it plays Jingle Bells.

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[deleted]

very interesting post ghillie. do you know of any sites where i might find more info on the shot by the canadians in afghanistan.

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[deleted]

Thanks for the info ghillie. An good site on a fascinating subject. cheers.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

It's onvious most guys here don't know what they're talking about. For example some stated Zane's weapon was 5.56mm, wrong. It was a Heckler and Koch PSG-1 chambered for 7.62mm. This is clearly ilustrated when Berenger empties the rifle and Zane uses the same cartridge later.

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Actually I'm surprised he didn't say he knew a guy who carries an Anzio in his pocket, sets up on a hill and takes out targets in countries on the other side of the ocean.

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[deleted]

Some of the people on here don't know too much about bullets. A roughly .30 full metal jacket bullet is not going to explode the entire side of someone's chest. It's going to make an entrance wound about the size of your pinkey when it hits you, it's going to core neatly through you, and leave via an exit wound about the size of a tennisball. Ballistic-tip and other hollowpoints work a little differently, as they are designed to expand rapidly and mushroom. I shot a deer last year with a .30-06 loaded with ballistic tips, when the bullet struck a rib on its way out it fragmented all to hell and the little shards of it struck the spine and killed it instantly. And if someone can reliably make headshots at 800 yards in field conditions, I'd really like to see it. That means no shooting bench, no sandbags, no wind markers.

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That's the difference between a DM (designated marskmen) and LE sharpshooters.

Also, LE engages enemies a lot closer, and they're the ones that shoot to kill. In the military, wounded is sufficient, does not always have to be dead.

Speaking of military, DM and sniper are also an entirely different class. The sniper's job is mostly recon and psychological warfare (making the enemy too afraid to advance), where as a DM's job is just to shoot at extended ranges.

Read this (skip down to the part where it says "military sniper rifles", and keep reading after that too); http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn00-e.htm

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What the *beep* are you lookin' at?!

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When a person gets shot with a .50 cal rifle, they pretty much always die. If they get shot in the head, the head explodes. If they get shot in the body, they go flying. I've seen this in real life.

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The Barret M82a1 is effective at even a mile away (maximum) too, so that's a pretty cool gun, AND they're legal for civilians!!!

I wouldn't be afraid of getting shot with one of those things though, any body or head shot, and my worries are over, no problem for me, angel of death!



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What the *beep* are you lookin' at?!

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[deleted]

Mercy,

Note I mentioned "field conditions" and "reliably". That means without your distances clearly marked, without a benchrest, with unpredictable winds, using army-issue ammo (yes, I know they make ammo specifically for sniping, at least in 7.62), against targets that move and twitch. I understand you can probably score shots at that distance on the range, which is better than I can boast. But can you do it reliably, ie 9 times out of 10, on a range other than the one you've practiced on? And yes bud, I've used a weapon before. I've been shooting since I was 6.

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[deleted]

Bud,

Sorry if I came off a bit priggishly in that last post. It wasn't really my intent to sound superior to anyone, or to deride your abilities. God knows, I'm no great shake with a rifle - I've never really had cause or room to shoot more than 100 yards, and that's using a standard Browning .30-06 with factory-loaded ammo and no bipod.

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Which leads me to ask:
Has anyone on this board actually fired a weapon?

Yes, I did. While not a trained Sniper, I did quite good during fring drill in the military.

Heckler & Koch G3, 7.62 mm, on 100 meters, no scope, 5 shots, 45 "points" (on a standard 10 ring target). So, quite good I'd say, although I never fired on longer ranges (wich is, as long as you aren't a sniper, barely necessary).

To the topic: where to aim?

As long as your intent is not to directly "neztralize" a target (as in an hostage situation, or the "assassination" as pictured in this movie), military practice (at least where and when I was trained) was to shot for non-vital areas. The credo is "three opponents with one shot":
Number one: the guy hit by the bullet. Rambo, Die Hard and all the other movies ar nonsense. Someone who got a direct hit from an assault rifle is out of action for sure. There is nothing like biting down the pain and keep on fighting (at least not for, say 95% of the regular soldier). So, a shot to the leg, arm, shoulder or whatever is an opponent who stops fighting.
Number two: there will always be someone who tries to save his comrade, who will start to bind the wounds etc. In many cases a field paramedic (if one is at hand), but still, its another guy who doesn't shoot back.
Number three: unless you have a highly trained, high morale and highly disciplined unit, once the fire begins and one of your comrades gets shot, chances are good that another soldier will "break". Especially if the shot was delivered to his comrade was not fatal enough to turn him unconscious. A wounded soldier, yelling and screaming among his comrades, is quite an effective psychological weapon.

In addition: a wounded comrade is rarely left behind, while a dead one can be recovered later. So, wounding a soldier ist, in most cases, more effective than just shooting one.

So, a single sniper can, with a single shot, slow down and confuse an enemy unit, or even force it to retreat.


The other tacic is wounding the lead man, and then, when one of his comradees try to get to him and pull him into cover, get that one, too. As is shown in the end of "Full Metal Jacket". There, again, the psychological effect of a wounded comrade comes into play. A dead opponent is "just" dead, while a wounded soldier is a distraction, a burden and a complication for his comrades, in addition to a missing gun.

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The general rule for the Canadian Army (our snipers have the world record farthest kill shot of 2,430 metres, so don't go saying "you have an army?") you take headshots up to 300 metres, moving targets up to 600 and stationary up to 800/1000 with the .308 or the .300 Win. Mag. With the .50 cal round this doesn't really apply.

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[deleted]

ok I don't know if anyone mentioned this but if a sniper could hit anywhere they aim for the brain stem. and a 7.62 through the chest of an unarmored target like they were shooting at will definetly kill them.

Larry stop pointing that *beep* gun at my dad!

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You mean your "snipers *had* the world record farthest kill shot..."
;D
Now Craig Harrison, formerly of The *British* Army, holds the record with 2,475 metres.
Either way, both of these dudes, Rob and Craig showed simply uncanny skill (or even more uncanny luck...)

--Myk

I'm probably being sarcastic...

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