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JESUS? Legend? Liar? Lunatic? Lord?


This is an argument for the deity of Jesus that I'm borrowing from C.S. Lewis in response to the "atheist's challenge of logic" from another thread. I'll delineate each choice and reasons/evidence for each one, and, though I know I'm putting my head on the chopping block, I want to put it out there. See what you got to say....

C.S. Lewis says that there are four conclusions that can be made about Jesus. He was either a Legend, a Liar, a Lunatic, or He was the Lord.

Choose one and the reasons why you chose it-

Legend?
First, of course, there are the Biblical texts that witness to His life and ministry, and His death and resurrection. From The Evidence Bible (Bridge-Logos): "There is one unfolding story from Genesis to Revelation: the redemption of mankind through the Messiah. In Gen. you have paradise lost; in Rev. you have paradise gained."

Here are the facts: 1,600 years, 60 generations, 40-plus authors, different walks of life, different places, different times, different moods, different continents, three languages, "writing on hundreds of controversial subjects and yet, when they are brought together, there is absolute harmony from beginning to end. There is no other book in history to even compare to the uniqueness of this continuity."

He was an historical figure. The Q'uran acknowledges His existence, as do the Jews. So 3 major world "religions" are in agreement about His existence. Public schools even teach about Him.

There are other corroborating ancient writings about Jesus outside the Bible. Flavius Josephus (A.D.93), the Babylonian Talmud (A.D.70-200), Pliny the Younger's letter to the Emperor Trajan (approx. A.D.100), the Annals of Tacitus (A.D. 115-117), Mara Bar Serapion (sometime after A.D. 73), and Suetonius' Life of Claudius and Life of Nero (A.D. 120) all confirm His birth, ministry, death, and resurrection.

Liar?
Lewis says that perhaps He lied about His deity. He claimed many times to be the Son of God, and many times was almost killed for it. The Jews, who wouldn't even say the Name of God out loud, considered this the worst kind of blasphemy, punishable by death. Despite the "adversity" He experienced, He stuck to His claim and was eventually killed for it. If He was lying, why not change the story, or minimize the claim? "Ok, I'm not the Son of God, but I'm a Prophet" kind of thing to preserve His life.

Also, He had a large following, at times numbering in the thousands. Many people would have heard His claims of Deity. Many people would have had the opportunity to witness "proof" to the contrary or to verify His claim-- miracles (or lack of), His authoritative preaching, His everyday life, His attitude. None of the people following Jesus ever questioned these claims. Lots of people fall away from the group, but the Bible gives the reasons for those abandonments, and none of them were because they questioned His Deity.

When He was about to be crucified, the Jewish council asked Him if He was the Son of God. His answer was a matter of His life or death. He answered in the affirmative, knowing they were going to kill Him for it. If He was lying, this would've been the time to tell the truth! Also, if He was lying, He died for a lie.

Lunatic?
Lewis goes on to say that He may have been a lunatic, on the same level as the man who says he's a poached egg.

Anyone claiming to be God or the Son of God during these times would be thought insane. David Koresh, for example. Not necessarily so in and around Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. They were waiting for the Messiah to come. Daniel had prophesied that the one and only Jewish Messiah would come prior to the destruction of the temple, which occurred in A.D. 70. The Old Testament prophets declared that He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) to a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12, 13), die by crucifixion (Psalm 22), and be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9). The only person to fit all these messianic prophecies from the Old Testament who lived before A.D. 70 was Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Mary.

So, the Jews were expecting the Messiah. They thought He was going to be a great military leader who would deliver them from Roman rule and set up a kingdom for them in Jerusalem similar to the Old Testament kings. In fact they set aside a group of people called the "Essenes" to purify themselves, hoping that God would choose one of them to give birth to His Messiah.

That was not the case. He was born in humble circumstances. Grew up and lived a quiet life under the radar until He was about 30 years old. He had fasted in the desert for 40 days before He went public with His ministry. During that ministry, He made many claims about His deity, summed up in John 5:17-29. In John 6:38 He said that He "came down from heaven," that He was pre-existent, and in 8:23 that He is "from above" and "not of this world."

He made many claims that He was the Son of God. How did He back them up? Miracles and healings. He did not deny anyone who asked for healing, but He would not perform a miracle for the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16:4, rather He said, "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." (Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3 days, as Jesus would die and be resurrected on the third day, see Matt. 17:23).

Jesus never showed any signs of being deranged. When the people would be incited and try to kill Him (Jn 8:59), He simply "hid Himself and slipped away." He never harmed anyone. He never forced Himself on anyone. He lived a peaceful, ascetic life. No one among His followers ever contradicted His claims, even after His death.

Not to mention the composure He apparently maintained during His scourging and crucifixion. He was being executed with two thieves, and one even defended Him, saying that Jesus had done nothing wrong and did not deserve His punishment (Luke 23:41). Even one of the Roman centurions became convinced by the way Jesus died and said, "Certainly this was a righteous man" (Lk 23:47).

He could've prevented all of this if He was lying by saying that He wasn't the Son of God. Instead He maintained His assertions to His death. I do not believe He was lying. I do not believe He was crazy. I believe He was who He said He was. He was the Lord, the long-promised Messiah. And if He was, in fact, the Son of God, then God must be real, personal, knowable.

Lord?
So what evidence do I have to present that Jesus was the Son of God?

He was the fulfillment of countless OT prophecies.

He performed many miracles and healings. He clearly had the power to back up the claims He made.

And for me, this is the most convincing argument for His deity-- His resurrection. He had predicted several times that He would die and be raised to life on the third day (Lk 18:31-33).

After He was arrested in Gethsemane, His disciples scattered because they were afraid they would be killed too. Only John, Mary of Magdala, and Mary, Jesus' mother were present for His trial and crucifixion. He died (Lk 23:46) and was buried in a borrowed tomb (Lk 23:55) to fulfill OT prophecy. But when Mary, Joanna, and Mary went to the tomb to put spices on the body on the first day of the week, the stone had been rolled away and the tomb was empty, but the "strips of linen [were] lying there, as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen" (John 20:6 & 7). [Shroud of Turin, maybe?].

Matthew 27:62-66 recounts how the chief priests and Pharisees asked for a special guard to be placed at the tomb and a seal on the stone by Pilate so the disciples couldn't steal the body and tell the people He had been raised from the dead. Mt 28:11-15 details the plot by the guards to stay out of trouble. They were paid to say that they fell asleep and the disciples came and stole the body. If in fact, they had fallen asleep at their post, they would have been killed. Roman soldiers were not permitted such lax activity, and to do so meant death. But the priests said that if the report (that they had fallen asleep at their posts) got to the governor, they would "satisfy him and keep [them] out of trouble" (verse 14).

The disciples, however, were no threat whatsoever. They (11, because Judas had hanged himself) were cowering together in the Upper Room when the women brought the report that the tomb was empty. They were still frightened. Their leader had just been killed and they feared they would be next. If the Pharisees and priests didn't kill them, they surely feared that the people would. Instead, they witnessed Jesus resurrected from the dead. He walked on the earth 40 days after His resurrection and appeared to thousands of people in that time.

Incredibly, each of the disciples preached about Christ after His ascension to heaven (Lk 24:50-53). All of them but John died martyrs' deaths for preaching about Him. They are chronicled in the book of Acts and in Foxe's Book of Martyrs and throughout church history. Had He not died and come back to life like He had said He would, the disciples probably would have abandoned their ministry and gone back to fishing and working for the government, as many of them had done when Jesus called them to follow Him 3 years before. Instead, they were willing to die for Him and His message. Had He lied or been loopy, I don't imagine that all of His disciples would have gone on to preach about Him or die for Him. Even one of Jesus' brothers converted and wrote the book of James, historians believe.


So, who do you think He is? Legend? Liar? Lunatic? Lord?

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Friedrich Nietzsche once said something to the effect of this: When you love someone, you're giving them power over you (or power that you could keep for yourself). So the more you love someone, the more power you are giving them over yourself.

So Jesus loved us so much, that he gave us power over His life. He knew what He was doing because it needed to be done or we (if we were following an orthodox Jewish lifestyle) would still be sacrificing animals to this day to take away our sins or we would have to die ourselves (Because the payment for our sins is death).

Jesus loved us so much that He gave the people around Him, the whole world in a sense, power over Him and they had Him killed. He was planning on it. He knew it was the best thing for us because He loved/loves us and wanted/wants us to be with Him for eternity in heaven when we die and leave the earth.

I don't know of anybody who has ever lived here on earth or who is currently living or any god or deity anyone has talked about or claimed existed or currently exists who loved ME so much that they died for me. And then to have this someone come back to life and beat death - that's HUGE.

I would only follow someone who truly loved me THAT much and wanted me to truly love other people...to discover what is in other people's best interests and do something about it.

I would follow that guy.

Jesus is the only one I know of who did all that.

I believe Jesus is Lord.

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Friedrich Nietzsche once said something to the effect of this: When you love someone, you're giving them power over you (or power that you could keep for yourself). So the more you love someone, the more power you are giving them over yourself.

So Jesus loved us so much, that he gave us power over His life. He knew what He was doing because it needed to be done or we (if we were following an orthodox Jewish lifestyle) would still be sacrificing animals to this day to take away our sins or we would have to die ourselves (Because the payment for our sins is death).

Jesus loved us so much that He gave the people around Him, the whole world in a sense, power over Him and they had Him killed. He was planning on it. He knew it was the best thing for us because He loved/loves us and wanted/wants us to be with Him for eternity in heaven when we die and leave the earth.
MARVELOUS!!!!

Beautifully done, MainMovieMan!!!

I believe that is exactly what Jesus did in giving His life for us-- He relinquished power b/c of His great love!

So encouraging!!!! Thank you!!

I've made smarter things than you by eating fiber.

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This is a famed argument. The thing is, it only works if you take the gospels as historical evidence. No one knows for sure exactly what Jesus said or the exact circumstances for which he was killed. Each of the four gospels were written 50+ years after his death, and of course they each have an agenda. Biblical texts really cannot be taken as historical documents.

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Personally I go with the 'Legend' category.

'The thing is, it only works if you take the gospels as historical evidence'

Good point. Lewis (and other populist religious apologisers) often treat scripture in this way; though historical biblical criticism has been around since the 1830s or so. Does Lewis ever deal with this point? He must have been aware of these arguments.

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First off, I wholly consider Him Lord.

Otherwise- this borrowed from "Mere Christianity" correct?

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I know Jesus is Lord, I believe the whole Bible is true and relevant and that Jesus is the only way to God/heaven.

I don't like to think of myself as opinionated or right about everything (I'm most certainly not), but this is 1 thing I will not budge on.

Apart from evidences such as those mentioned here (and others I've heard/read), I have seen evidence before my very eyes eg how believing Jesus died for the sins of the world and accepting him as Lord and Saviour has truly transformed people's lives. If his claims were nonsense or lies, this couldn't be the case, could it?

Unfortunately, there are people who call themselves "Christian", who have not truly committed to this, and this is 1 of the things that give many people a misconception of who Jesus/God is and what it really means to be a Christian. If you truly allow Him to change your life, He will, and he said in John 10:10 that he came to give is life to the FULL. Anything we lose as a result of this will be what we don't need, and it will be worth it.

I remember the pastor in my church saying more than once: If you reject Jesus, at least make sure you reject the RIGHT one (ie not a misinterpretation of who Jesus is).

Some things in life are subject to opinion and debate, and should be left open as such. But there are also absolutes such as this. We need absolutes where fundamentals, life death etc are concerned.

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Well, I'm a passionate and devoted Christian (though far from perfect, obviously!), but I have to disagree with you quite strongly that Lewis suggested these four options. In Mere Christianity, in fact, he suggested the latter three - the entire point of what he was saying was to deny the first (very popular) option. This is what Lewis actually said:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronising nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

As far as I'm concerned, Jesus is Lord - it seems to me simply idiotic to say that a man who performed miracles, taught with astounding wisdom, and then defeated Death itself, was a confidence trickster or a devil. And if he wasn't, then he is what he says - he is our only hope of salvation, our truest source of love, and worthy of everything that we are.

Incidentally (merely for interest), Lewis uses a very similar argument in "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe", when the elder children discuss Lucy's story of Narnia with Professor Kirke - he says that the only three are options are that she is lying (which they are sure she never does), she is mad (which she is obviously not!), and that she is telling the truth.

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But again, all these theories about Christ only work if you treat the Bible as documentary evidence and objective truth. You'd have to believe it was as accurate, or probably more so, than yesterday's papers.

Lewis, as an educated theologian, MUST have been aware of historic biblical criticism - as I mentioned before, scholars like Feurbach were publishing historic criticism of the Scriptures over 100 years before Lewis was writing; and writers like Tom Paine were publishing less formal criticism even earlier.

So why doesn't Lewis address this in his works - was it because he just wanted to keep things on a populist level?

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To use the writings of religous zealots more than 50 years after one of thousands of messiahs was swept under the rug of history in moronic.
The NT is a pile of *beep* With no basis in fact.
They talk about something in 1st century C.E. which barely hung on until a *beep* emporer had a dream and got lucky in a battle. So he dictated that this particular rabbi be taken out from under the rug and deified for Roman Empire.
Without that, popes and reformationists and all the subsequent sects of the christian cult would not exist.
Humanity will not evolve further until it rids itself of superstition and the like.

Gott ist tot.
Nietzsche

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I believe Jesus is Lord.

This cannot be shown logically;
it is a matter of divine revelation that fosters faith.

The Trilemma is poor logic, for the reason that its premise is not provable.
It cannot be proved that Jesus claimed Deity. Mark's and Luke's gospels, in
particular, Jesus seems very deferential to his heavenly Father, and sharply
places himself on the human, creaturely side of the divine-human divide.
Only in the 4th gospel does Jesus claim Deity. And that gospel is highly symbolic.
It also (J. Louis Martyn) presents the theology of the 90's as history of AD 30.

The gospels contradict each other on this crucial point.

There is plenty of history in each gospel, even the 4th, but they are mainly theology.

The only way to preserve orthodox theology is to posit Kenosis (Phil 2:5-11)
that the divine Son, in assuming FULL humanity, laid aside divine attributes
such as omniscience: Jesus did not know that he was divine, prior to the resurrection. That will be a tough pill to swallow unless one already is a believer. --Fortunately, many of the Patristic Fathers believed that, for only Kenosis makes the Atonement reach all the way down to mortal humanity. So, I
believe it. But I wouldn't try to convince anyone logically.

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