I thought Debra Winger was totally wrong for this movie. She was great in blue-collar movies such as Urban Cowboy and Officer and a Gentleman, but not in this type of drama. Maybe I had her typecasted as I watched. What do you think?
shareWhy do you think that C.S. Lewis couldn't fall in love with a "blue collar"-type woman?
shareHer accent, mainly.
shareThat just means that *you* won't fall in love with her, which still doesn't answer the question.
shareHey LQ, why don't you try re-reading this entire thread. No-one's arguing that C.S Lewis couldn't fall in love with a blue-collar gal. (In point of fact, he did.) What we are arguing instead is that Debra Winger was not well-cast for the role. (And that her accent was particularly atrocious and inconsistent.) Get it?
share"She was great in blue-collar movies such as Urban Cowboy and Officer and a Gentleman, but not in this type of drama."
Get it?
Sorry... I guess you must have misunderstood me. I recommended that you "re-read the entire thread." Evidently what you took away from that was a recommendation to "randomly cut-and-paste other people's threads into a nonsensical thread of your own." LQ, you've yet to write anything down resembling a coherent point. But, but all means--don't let that stop you. Instead, try compensating for the poor quality of your arguments by simply generating a thousand of them. (It's kind of like making up for a bad singing voice by singing really loudly.) Go to it, man.
shareOr . . . maybe you've misunderstood the thread.
Here's the thread with footnotes.
"I thought Debra Winger was totally wrong for this movie. She was great in blue-collar movies such as Urban Cowboy and Officer and a Gentleman, but not in this type of drama. Maybe I had her typecasted as I watched. What do you think?"
Debra Winger, whom I may have typcast as a blue-collar person and therefore was great in blue collar-movies, was totally wrong as C.S. Lewis' love interest in an English drama.
"Why do you think that C.S. Lewis couldn't fall in love with a "blue collar"-type woman?"
Why can't an Englishman in an English drama fall in love with a "blue collar" woman?
"Her accent, mainly."
Her accent.
"That just means that *you* won't fall in love with her, which still doesn't answer the question."
You didn't like her accent, which doesn't mean that C.S. Lewis didn't like it.
"Hey LQ, why don't you try re-reading this entire thread. No-one's arguing that C.S Lewis couldn't fall in love with a blue-collar gal. (In point of fact, he did.) What we are arguing instead is that Debra Winger was not well-cast for the role. (And that her accent was particularly atrocious and inconsistent.) Get it?"
Re-read the thread because you're misunderstanding it. Besides, I think her accent is inconsistent.
"'She was great in blue-collar movies such as Urban Cowboy and Officer and a Gentleman, but not in this type of drama.'"
Read this part (and perhaps the rest of the first post) and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Anyway, back to your topic, what was inconsistent about her accent? Sounded like ol' Debra Winger to me.
And now instead of clarifying your own argument (whatever it may be), you choose to repeat everyones’ arguments. I’m curious, LQ… do you have any actual thoughts of your own?
Unlike NickRisch, I have not had the pleasure of seeing Debra Winger in "Urban Cowboy" or "An Officer and a Gentleman." I’m sure she was lovely in both. NickRisch appears to be of the belief that Deb played a blue-collar role in these first two films, but then stepped out to play a white-collar gal in Shadowlands. In the latter impression, at any rate, he is incorrect. Since Joy Gresham was unemployed, she (denotatively) met neither the criteria for being either blue- or white-collar. Her behaviour on the other hand (especially to a British 1950’s English professor) would be perceived as being grossly blue-collar. From locating C.S. Lewis in a restaurant by yelling out his name to calling the Dean of Oxford “stupid,” Gresham is illustrated as being someone very much at home with blue-collar manners.
What specifically NickRisch found distasteful about Debra Winger’s portrayal of Joy Gresham, I do not know. Obviously he believed her to be poorly cast for the role—and on that point we are certainly in agreement. I found Debra’s acting to be artificial and unconvincing, and her accent to be inconsistent to the point of ludicrousness. (Transitioning from a thick fake New York accent at the start of the movie to being virtually accent-free half-way through the movie to frequent punctuation with on-and-off bursts of over-the-top inflection scatted periodically and randomly throughout.)
You originally asked why C.S. Lewis couldn’t fall in love with a blue-collar woman (a somewhat odd question seeing as how no one was arguing anything to the contrary) and since then you have continued to flog this thread with similarly muddled ruminations ad infinitum and most certainly ad nauseam.
So, to make it very simple for you, here are my arguments:
1) Debra Winger—in both her acting and (most especially) her accent—was poor in Shadowlands.
2) C.S. Lewis could, and did, fall in love with (as you put it) a “blue-collar-type” woman.
Now do you, in turn, have anything to actually say? If so, say it. Or do you plan to simply continue summarizing and paraphrasing and cribbing what everyone else has already said? If the latter is the case, go find another thread to be annoying in. You’ve outstayed your welcome here.
P.S. If you really didn’t hear anything strange in Debra Winger’s accent, you may want to consider an audiology appointment. Try Googling the following search: “Debra Winger”+Shadowlands+accent
I really didn't want to state this out-loud, but you have the reading comprehension skills of a mollusc--hence my attempt to point to the first article (which started it all) and my subsequent attempt to explain to you what the thread was about.
"NickRisch appears to be of the belief that Deb played a blue-collar role in these first two films, but then stepped out to play a white-collar gal in Shadowlands. In the latter impression, at any rate, he is incorrect."
From what he said in the first post and from the context of the movie, it is implied that the presence of a "blue-collar" character in a British period-piece drama seemed out of place. That is why I asked what I did in the second post. Now unless you have something intelligent to say about this topic, stop mud-slinging.
"I found Debra’s acting to be artificial and unconvincing . . ."
How was it artificial and unconvincing? She seemed like a brusque, fiercely independent woman who married Lewis for citizenship more than anything else, and who later became emotionally dependent on (and involved with) Lewis as she developed cancer.
". . . and her accent to be inconsistent to the point of ludicrousness. (Transitioning from a thick fake New York accent at the start of the movie to being virtually accent-free half-way through the movie to frequent punctuation with on-and-off bursts of over-the-top inflection scatted periodically and randomly throughout.)"
Well, I have to admit that I'm not familiar with New York accents (being from Texas myself) and therefore that bit just slipped past me. But I can understand where you're coming from as in Mary Reilly Julia Roberts switches back and forth between Cockney and American Southern, which was quite irritating. I guess, in this respect, they should have cast someone more knowledgeable in New York accents or Winger shouldn't have attempted to emulate it in the first place.
Whew! You boys really hit hard! Tex is right about the accent--only a New Yorker, or a dialect coach, would get really peeved about DW's accent. It sounded okay to me, and the emotional power of the film gradually distracted me from attending to such details. I do recollect how I once had to stop the film Scent of a Woman when Al Pacino referred to the "Ory-gone 'burbs"; as a Oregon native, this one hit my ear like a hammer, smashing my willing suspension of disbelief all to smithereens. I got up, fixed a snack, and went back to the movie, eventually, but I was obviously put off by this bit of dialectal business--presumably deliberate (the mispronunciation is, of course, notorious, as the filmmakers surely knew, and was used to effect a sneer--but this didn't help me when I first heard it). So, I'm not going to discount the distraction that DW's accent might afford for a New Yorker. Is it enough to butch the entire performance? Evidently, for some people, it is. I thought she was pretty good. I can't think, offhand, of another actor who could have brought such an unromantic edge to the performance--a quality the filmmakers were looking for.
Recently I read Lewis's published journal, A Grief Observed, written originally by hand over the weeks immediately following Joy's death. From reading the journal, I got the impression that the portrayal of Joy in the film was fairly true to life, so far as it went; unfortunately, two things the film failed to convey effectively, in its final edited version at least, were Joy's intellectual brilliance and the intensity of the sexual passion that Joy and Lewis shared. These qualities, in addition to the admiration Lewis felt for Joy's courage in the face of pain (which the film did capture fully) appear, from the journal, to have been keys to Lewis's response to a woman who was, superficially, so different from him as to have been potentially repulsive. An interesting aspect of Lewis's character is that, despite his prodigious learning, and a lifetime spent in living the relatively cloistered, ivory-tower existence of an Oxbridge don and professor, he wasn't especially snooty. If he had been, I doubt that he himself could have got past Joy's accent. But, then, being an Irishman transplanted into the groves of English academe, perhaps he found Joy's accent exotic and charming, rather than "uneducated," as we in America tend to view the accents of New York, New Jersey, Chicago,and the South, to take just a few examples. (Now, don't y'all go attacking me, y'hear? Take it easy, youse guys. Fugeddaboudit.)
I know I'm getting to this thread late, but well put, DameAlys, well put. I also thought Debra Winger's performance was charming in all of its unrefined and unapologetic down-to-earthiness. That was well done. But underneath that, she also layered a lot of strength, passion and insight. I think it's to Ms. Winger's credit that she was able to incorporate all these qualities with a finely controlled restraint that allowed Jack and Joy's relationship to be this beautifuly organic thing. About the lack in terms of showing Joy's intellectual side, you're right. It was more implied, rather than shown. (All those letters they exchanged prior her arrival must have contained some brilliant intellectual arguments among other things.) But I thought that was fine. Jack and Joy were two equals who didn't have to prove to each other how brilliant they were. Instead, wisely, the filmakers chose to underline Joy's ability to expose Jack's hang-ups, and fear-ridden inconsistencies, bringing a fresh 'unromatically' edged perspective to the Oxford don's sheltered life. And I agree that the film captured her courage well. I think it is that courage Joy displayed in facing the pain and impending death...especially in that poignant scene in the rain...led to Jack's discovery of sexual passion. (previous to that scene, the two hardly stepped out of themselves for a peck on the cheek!) There, Joy grasped from the lofty realm of her intellectual understanding of Lewis' own writings and her personal faith, and brought down to earth truth to the real-life situation of her present suffering and their imminent separation, igniting that which was abstract into a flame of belief...this lit her up in Jack's eyes and she must have never been so beautiful to him as she was then. Sexual passion came out of seeing this total inside-outward beauty and they kissed for the first time like lovers, not mere friends. Personally, I'm glad the filmmakers refrained from doing a traditional & awkward love scene in the back of their touring car. Ugh! Fuggedaboudit!
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No she is perfect for the role. She has real class and beautiful eyes. There seems to be a good chemistry between her and Sir Anthony Hopkins. My impression is that they both give a personnal touch to that film, that no other actors would have given.
shareBarbra Streisand was originally going to play the part of Joy, but Debra Winger was cast after she backed out at the last minute.
sharehuh? I thought she was perfect....
shareI'm just watching the movie on DVD and I think Winger is superb. She's grounded, sharp, incisive, physical, loving, and full of New World common sense -- which is exactly what Jack Lewis needed most for his own spiritual development.
It's been said that there are two C.S. Lewises: the one before Joy, and the one after. I agree. I think Winger does a phenomenal job.
Debra Winger was so utterly charmless I wondered how anyone could fall in love with her. She was physically and mentally unnattractive. They didn't even let her use her trademark grin or honking laugh. I'd love to blame the writer and director for her complete lack of appeal, but I assume Anthony Hopkins worked with the same set of variables and he managed to make his character quite delicious. There's no reason that Joy couldn't have been a communist, a convert, and a bit of a bull in a china shop while still retaining charm and that unmistakable glimmer of intellect.
I'm afraid she's just not up to the role. I would have loved to see Emma Thompson try this one (and put on the correct NY accent. I just think that to attract the love of such a well known man, the real Joy would have had to have something a little special,) besides her death. I was left believing that the only thing special about Joy was that she somehow or other made a claim on CS Lewis, and that, once he got used to feeling needed, he grew to like it and it turned to love.
If that perception is the right one, and Joy was nothing special, then perhaps Winger didn't do such a bad job after all.
I've just watched it on DVD. I'm English living in Australia, and I thought the accent was supposed to be Jewish. But what would I know?
I liked DW in the role as I've been led to believe that the real Joy Gresham was portrayed accurately.
There's an art to making love. And you don't even have a paintbrush.
Debra's accent was okay, if a tad OTT. It was a NY accent circa 1940, not not necessarily Jewish, but common among many Jews of the period.
I just said I found Debra unattractive and charmless, and that I'd like to see Emma try it. Emma Thompson seems to ramp up the intelligence quotient of every script, and I think she might have made the intellectual attraction between the two of them more believable. She's also got a great ear for accents and I'm sure she could do a 1940's NYC accent just as well as Debra.
I love Emma too but she already worked with Hopkins in Remains and Howards End, atleast this was a fresh pairing. I think Hopkins and Winger looked good together too. They seemed like a real couple.
shareI liked Debra Winger in the role (though, at my first viewing, it did initially seem a bit strange). Her accent was a bit indiscernable...but I know it was New Yorkish. I was, however, wondering how Emma Thompson might have played the role, with an American accent. I SO ADORE Emma, and love her with Anthony Hopkins...they must do more films together. I miss them.
shareYes, Jackie Blu. For a love story to work on film, guys have to want the girl too! As in Sharkey's Machine, Slumdog Millionaire, Tortilla Flat, Some Like it Hot. Debra Winger is not sexy! Her accent was uneven. She had the charm of a washed up middle-aged Jewish cab driver in NYC complaining about corns on her feet and syatica. She has goofy teeth too.
Good thing Winger turned down the role in Blue Lagoon, so Brooke Shields could get it. What was the casting director thinking? Winger also turned down the female lead in Raiders of the Lost Ark and Fatal Attraction and Terminator. Linda Hamilton was much better as second choice!! Winger would have been chopped liver in that. She is famous for the roles she passed on.
What are you talking about. She basically reprised her "Terms of Endearment Role".
She has experience portraying cancer victims.
"We share the same biology regardless of ideology"-Sting, 1985
Not taking anything away from Claire Bloom's portrayal of Joy Gresham in the 80s BBC-version, I always thought Debra Wingers performance was even more impressive, and right on the dot if you read the books and accounts of C.S. Lewis and Joy. Winger had just that toughness that is described in these accounts.
On the other hand, I found Hopkins totally wrong in the part, great actor that he is. He plays an Oxford don, but he does emphatically not play C.S. Lewis. He is a reticent, mumbling and stiff scholar, nothing like the real Lewis by all acounts from the people who knew him. Joss Ackland in the BBC-version, though not physically very like Lewis, was all the more impressive in the part, I think.
I also had my impressions confirmed by Douglas Gresham himself, who thought Debra Winger was just right in the part of his mother, while Ackland was right as C.S. Lewis.
Did anybody else see the two versions and would like to comment on the differences between them?
Replying to bengt-ove :
I have seen both films and I like them both.
I recently saw the BBC production again, and I liked it very much. It is different, somehow more subdued. I liked Claire Bloom's portrayal of Joy. I don't know if Winger's or Bloom's portrayal was more like the real life Joy.
I somehow bought Joss Ackland more as Lewis than I did Hopkins. I didn't think Winger conveyed much feminine charm, although I think she is a very good actress.
I read once that Lewis described Joy as having a mind and intellect "like a leopard." I think Bloom portrayed that sharp intellect while simultaneously having a warmth and softness about her. I didn't see any sexual chemistry between Hopkins and Winger. This didn't bother me, until I read that Lewis had written about the sexual happiness he and Joy had shared. Originally I figured that their bond was primarily a meeting of two superb intellects but without much sexual life. I guess I need to read more Lewis. I've read some of his works, but not his biographical writings.
I thought that Ackland and Bloom portrayed a physical attraction that was definitely present, but subtle and under the surface.
Although the theatrical film has better production values, I think I slightly like the BBC production more. They are both very good films.
The film has the longest death scene in cinema history. Winger just refused to die and kept rattling away. It was exceedingly irritating.
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