MovieChat Forums > M. Butterfly (1993) Discussion > What about the baby???? (spoiler)

What about the baby???? (spoiler)


I saw the movie not a long time ago and i didn't like it, specially the begining, the love relationship it's never really explained, they just fall in love and that's it, that's not the way i see things so i couldn't buy it. Buy what i just dindn't quite understand was how he tought he had had a baby with "her" if, i pressume, the had never had sex? hadn't they? other wise he would have realized she was man??? am i right??? well, i hope someone could clarify this. Thanks.
Mario

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They did have sex....it was somewhat shown in the movie.....in gayish way. But the real life person during an interview(was it 2020?) did admit that whenever they did have sex, it was when it was in total darkness and under covers. I'm still wondering why the main dude couldn't figure it out though. He did have a wife or something before he met the other dude.

Anyways, the baby that they "had" was actually adopted by the Song Liling from an area in china which people tend to have cuacasian features. He claimed to have told Rene, and supposely Rene knew...but he never admitted to it and still to this day believes that Song is a female.....i think....

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In addition to this, Song "went to the countryside" during her "pregnancy", so concealing a pregnancy wouldn't be an issue.

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what the hell is sex in a gayish way? they had anal sex. heteros do it, too, you know. both of you need to grow up.

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Get a clue genius. If it had been male and female then thats a different story but since they're both males, then yeah its gay as hell.

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"In gayish way" is probably the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Seriously... it's kind of like Belgian waffles... or French toast... If you come from the merry ol' land of Gay, I guess you're Gayish. I should make up a brochure...

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you know, I would buy that brochure... and I'm from the Land of Gay HAHA

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titanDM_02: "In gayish way" is probably the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Seriously... it's kind of like Belgian waffles... or French toast..."
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How about 'Kentucky Fried Chicken'?

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Yes, in a gayish way. That poster clearly does not have relationships with any gays or lesbians. Pity, he does not know what he is missing! :)

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maryiaquinta: "That poster clearly does not have relationships with any gays or lesbians. Pity, he does not know what he is missing!"
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A greater pity would be assuming such a thing about the poster, about the same as it was always so wrongly assumed that homosexuals would be happier in a het relationship 'if they just found the right person.'

Also, the message to society has been that no one knows who is and isn't gay, so no tellings who the poster has associated with.

Likewise, to then conclude that if the poster has no affiliation with homosexuals, then he 'does not know what he is missing', when once again, this same conclusion would be made by (ahem) 'homophobes' about gays 'not knowing what they are missing' from heterosexual relations.

Heteroes were always told to 'live and let live'.

The true 'pity' is that obviously not everyone seems to be able to follow this suggestion.


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Point well taken, Richard; I completely agree. I was referring to platonic relationships with gays or lesbians. I can't speak for romantic relationships.Thank you for your thoughts.

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YOU ARE FUNNY.... HAD A GOOD LAUGH OVER YOUR REMARK..... ITS TRUE....WHERE HAVE THESE PEOPLE BEEN??

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They didn't have anal sex, though. I don't want to be too graphic here, but basically "tucking" was involved along with some manipulation of the scrotal sac. Anyone wishing to find out how that particular portion of the deception was carried out can find it, there is plenty of information about the real story on the Internet.

Now with that out of the way I think that a big part of what's been missed by a lot of posters is that self-delusion/total devotion played a big part in the answer to the commonly asked question "How could he possibly not know it was a man after all that time?" The film and play posits that Rene was "Butterfly" from the opera Madama Butterfly and Song Liling was Pinkerton, and the main point of that is that Butterfly loved an undeserving man completely and of course later killed herself. Rene loved Son Liling so completely that while on some level he must've realized, as an intelligent man, that something unusual was going on, his love for his "butterfly" was so powerful that it blinded him to it and made him blindly accept all of the lies and fabrications and performing Son Liling subjected him to.

Deception + a willingness to accept that deception without questioning it = delusion.

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actually in the play the baby was given to Song by Chin. Song told Chin he/she needed a baby about 7 months old to convince Gallimard he was the father of it.

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What do you mean "The real-life person" in a 20/20 interview????????? this film was based on a play which was based on a serialised magazine story from the 19th century!!!!!!! (Long, John Luther: Madame Butterfly, American Century Magazine.),which in turn was modelled on Pierre Loti's 1887 autobiographical novel Madame Chrysantheum, and I doubt they dug him up for a 20/20 interview. Also, anal sex is not an exclusively homosexual practice so "gayish" is a definite misnomer. Who are these geniuses that post such things????
"...believes to this day that Song is a female..." indeed.

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Dear elford 6,
The 19th century play by John Long, of wich you talk about is "Madame Butterfly", I think you are really confused when you say that the movie was based on this play. The one who based his work on this play was opera composer Giacomo Puccini in 1904, in fact his opera is called "Madame Butterfly" and you can hear excepts form it all around the movie.
The story in the movie is indeed based on true events, obviously with some "Holywood" in it.

An opera buff.

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It is remarkable that such ignorant people take the time to watch films and then comment on IMDB.

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what the hell is sex in a gayish way? they had anal sex. heteros do it, too, you know. both of you need to grow up.


When two guys have sex, excuse me if I'm being ignorant, but isn't that gay?

Naturally, they couldn't *beep* in the normal way, so they did it the gay way, because they were both men!

You need to *beep* stop being so goddam bitchy!

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[deleted]

You're right about that...even though it might of been "gayish"...Rene did think it was with a female. Now what about this....say Rene knew that Song was a guy, but Song wanted to be a female(kinda a transvesite)...and they both had sex but Rene pretended that Song was a female. Would that be considered gay as hell then?

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It was probably Cronenberg that said that because in Act II Scene IX of the play Chin asks Song what were the lowest of perversions that Song engaged in with Gallimard and song says, "I let him put it up my a$$!"

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I'm sure people will stop being "bitchy" the day you stop being so thick."...they could (copulate)in the 'NORMAL' way..."?????? oh so vaginal/penile interaction is the only 'normal' way to fornicate and everyone else is, by your definition, abnormal. Nice one Einstein.

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THERE WAS AN INDVIDUAL CLAIMING TO BE THE REAL RENE GALLIMARD AND WAS INTERVIEWED. WHAT EVER HAPPENED TP SONG LILING.

IN SPITE OF ALL THE COMMENTS, I THOUGHT IT WAS AVERY MOVING AND POIGNANT FILM.


MIKE D. BELL

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Isn't this film based on the real life story of French diplomat and a opera singer, a hua dan where traditionally the male would take on the role of a female?

Whatever happened to these two anyone knows?

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The play is based on a real life incident back in the sixties....it was covered on 60 Minutes, so was quite genuine. I saw the diplomat interviewed, can't recall his name, but the opera singer (called Song in the play and film versions), who was also interviewed, was named Pei Poo....an unfortunate name to the English ear considering the subject.

The diplomat was asked point blank how he could have been fooled as to the intimate sexual nature of their relationship, and he did state that they had sex in complete darkness and under heavy blankets...also that he was very naive and inexperienced, despite being married at the time.

Personally, I felt that the diplomat realized, in some repressed part of his mind, that he was having homosexual (anal) sex with another man, and to some degree what that meant...and it was so unacceptable to him, given the time and place in which he lived, that he totally repressed it and just would not deal with it, even 40 years later.

Pei Poo, on the other hand, appeared to be what we would call in the west a "drag queen", a gay man deeply immersed in an heavily costumed and cosmetic identify as a woman, that he only stepped out of on occasion. His appearance and mannerisms were very effeminate.

I have seen both the stage play and the film versions of M. Butterfly. I do have to say that on stage, the "gender confusion" is very convincingly depicted (I was lucky to see a superb actor in the role of Song), but in the film, John Lone (although an excellent actor all around) is simply too obviously a man and not a woman. This skews the story of the play a bit, and does make you wonder about the real life individuals, as discussed above: did they really think they were in a straight love relationship? Or simply in heavy denial about their mutual homosexuality? questions that perhaps can never be answered by anyone outside of the actual story.

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Drag queens are not necessarily gay. Lets not mix up transvestite and homosexual. They are seperate concepts and one does not constitute another.

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iv here that most transvestites are not homo sexual.

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You're confused. A transvestite is a straight man that gets off by dressing in women's clothing (especially/specifically undergarments); a drag queen is a gay man that dresses in women's clothing and (often, but not always) performs or entertains as a career. Drag is not sexual, crossdressing is. Drag is art, crossdressing is kink.

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Thank you Laurel 962 for your post.

And I would add to this board discussion that the diplomat's denial was incredibly deep -- one does not conceieve a baby via anal sex.

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I just watched this movie for the first time. It was a very moving story but rather poorly done, perhaps they could have found an actor that was French rather than British for Iron's character, and I am in complete agreement that the actor playing Song's character was obviously too "male" looking which makes it difficult for movie watchers to believe his true anatomy was kept a secret for such a long time. However, that being said, I personally know people that have been "fooled", before, during and after sex by transgendered people, even with intact genitals. So who knows..

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How can I get hold of that 60 mins clip?Is there a writeup on it?

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Here's info on the real guys, Bernard Boursicot (or Bouriscot, Google has it spelled both ways) & Shi Pei Pu. Shi was put on trial for spying and that's when BB supposedly found out that Shi was a dude.

I found this stuff when they were on 20/20. I guess Barbara Walters interviewed them-

BERNARD BOURSICOT: And instead of beating him, I told, “But I want to see.” And he told, “Oh, it does not matter, no problem.” And he took his pants down and he told me, “You can see.” And a week after, I wanted to die, because I was thinking, “Okay, now I am not only a prisoner, not only a spy, but a foolish person.”

B: . . . there is the theory that you were homosexual all those years ago, but couldn't face it, and so you allowed yourself to be deceived. How do you answer that?

BERNARD BOURSICOT: It is possible, but it's not the sole explanation.

Pei’s version

BARBARA WALTERS: Just a friend?

SHI PEIPU: (through interpreter) Of course.

BARBARA WALTERS: Nothing more?

SHI PEIPU: (through interpreter) Yes, but there is no use talking about it. It's over. It's over.

BARBARA WALTERS: How did you meet Monsieur Boursicot?

SHI PEIPU: (through interpreter) I have forgotten, and besides, I don't speak about him anymore.

BARBARA WALTERS: Did you ever tell Monsieur Boursicot that you were a woman?

SHI PEIPU: (through interpreter) He said that? I don't think so. I'm not crazy like that.


Maybe Bouriscot suspected something was "different", but didn't want to ask/talk about it. Or he knew the truth but just didn't want to acknowledge it...

David H. Hwang also wrote that the guy wasn't in love with who he thought was a woman, but that he was in love with an "Orientalist fantasy", makes sense to me given what happened.

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I know this isn't the right place to be asking this, but it seemed the only part on the board getting attention. I'm a fan of asian movies but I don't think i've seen this movie before..I saw it in a video store to buy, not sure if I should or not but would anyone say it's a movie to recommend ?

" Two languages in one head? No one can live at that speed "

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I think it's an amazing and deeply moving film.

I am also a huge fan of Asian films (particularly Korean)but M BUTTERFLY is not an Asian film. Cronenberg is Canadian, and it was a Geffen production (David Geffen is American) so I imagine it was a Canadian-American co-production.

It's a shocking that Criterion has not picked a film of this quality for DVD release. It has a controversial theme, but Critereon has never had a problem with that.

THE PASSION OF BEATRICE is another quality film, also controversial, which has never been picked up fro DVD release.

could be that whomever has the rights is not willing to sell them.

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I saw the 2020 interview with Babs Walters, thru translators. They also showed the child, now grown up. Barbara said his name was Dodo.

Everytime she asked the 'female' a question about the relationship, the person would say simply 'he said that?' or 'she' said it quite often.

The french fellow, by the way, was now in a homosexual relationship.

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To help clarify on the sex issue. It is possible that Rene thought he had vaginal sex with Song. I am currently reading a book on one of the possible identities of Jack the Ripper where the author delves into the culture at the time. It was a practice amongst prostitutes at that time who for some reason or other not want to engage in actual sex (do to infection, pain or disease) to fool a man into thinking that he was indeed having vaginal intercourse by clenching the thighs together. The men were usually drunk, and doing the act standing up so all they felt was a warm, tight space under heavy layers of petticoats and skirts. So supposing that Song got Rene drunk, was under heavy blankets, strapped certain things out of the way, and tightly clenched his thighs, its completely conceivable that Rene thought he was having, as it was stupidly termed earlier, "normal" sex. Also, take into consideration the jab that the other woman he had an affair with made about positions other than missionary. So say Rene thought he was having sex "doggie style" when again Song was tightly clenching his thighs or they were having anal sex. So what I'm saying is under heavy cover with someone experienced in delusion, it is entirely possible to confuse an experienced or inexperienced man especially if drunk. Hope that clarifies.

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but for that long? he can't be drunk all these years...
I still go for the deep denial theory.
And the stage-play's "Orientalist fantasy" is SO TRUE.
btw, it's said that Shi Peipu first met the French dude dressing as a man. He was 26 year-old, well-educated and speaks some French.
I found the whole story ridiculous and can't help but doubt its authenticity.

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I agree that the whole story was grotesque, "ancient oriental ways of love" or no.

Anybody who has had sex with a proficient "shemale", especially one with particularly small or vestigial male genitalia, will know that it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference, specially in the dark and without much time. They present you with a well-oiled anus and you don't necessarily do a full auscultation!

But Boursicot did this with the little Chinese impersonator for seven years!! Either Boursicot was a.... not very observant kind of guy, or he was a fraud.

Needless to say, NOBODY in France ever believed him that he didn't know. He became a laughinstock.

All love affairs are ambiguous, dream-like and full of mirrors, but this movie... takes the cake!







If the Kingdom of Heaven is like a grain of mustard, It can also be like a chicken-pox mark.

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Ok... to clear it up for everybody. Here is what Song says in the play (he is talking about rules for guys that he learned from his prostitute mother),

"One, because when he finally met his fantasy woman, he wanted more than anything to believe that she was, in fact, a woman. And second, I am an Oriental. And being an Oriental, I could never be completely a man."

Rene always suspected that Song was a man, but was so caught up in his search for his own Madam Butterfly that he didn't really care. Plus, in the play, Song also says,

"Not really. I did all the work. He just laid back. Of course we did enjoy more... complete union, and I suppose he might have wondered why I WAS ALWAYS ON MY STOMACH..."

Then in the end, Rene admits to Song being a man, but he still holds on to the idea of the perfection of Song, the Oriental Butterfly, the woman.

Anyways... hope it helps! :)

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Thank you for all of your answers, it cleared up some details, but the whole story is still amazing.

I mean seven years... couldn't he somehow, accidentally, touch or see the penis? Between his thighs... it's not really convincing... he must have felt the difference. Doesn't matter that he was unexperienced, but he had a wife...
I think the Chinese guy was disturbed, and Rene... I think he realized after some time, but the continued that farse.

So, Rene didn't commit suicide as it was shown in the movie?

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I think the diplomat may have always harbored gay feelings, but not allowing himself to believe she was a he made his love and feelings for a man acceptable in his eyes, as to the type of sex ...i think hed prob only had missionary sex with his wife, and thought the ancient ways of love ..he prob figured things out alot sooner than years but wouldnt let himself believe it

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i just had to write a midterm paper on M. Butterfly, so i'm going to post my analysis...i know it's very late, but just in case you come back to read my reply. =]

It is important to acknowledge the fact that Gallimard knows that Song is actually a man, but he pretends to not know. Although he asks Song to strip while they’re together, he stops Song from taking off her clothes after Song insists that she is a modest Chinese girl. It is as though Gallimard himself is not sure of his sexual orientation. His fetish, Madame Butterfly, is another interesting element to his character. Why is he fascinated with the "Perfect Woman"? If Gallimard is homosexual, why does he want Butterfly? As Sigmund Freud explains in "Fetishism," a fetish is “a substitute for [a] woman’s ([a] mother’s) penis that [a] little boy once believed in and…does not want to give up” (Freud 152). The boy “refused to take cognizance of the fact of his having perceived that woman does not possess a penis” (Freud 153). The boy is afraid of castration after seeing his mother’s genitals. It seems that Gallimard has castration anxiety as well as homosexual anxiety. Gallimard longs for phallic order, but his penis does not work to follow the phallic order. In Scene V of Act II, his wife Helga asks him to go see Dr. Bolleart to find out if there’s something wrong with him because the couple cannot conceive. Helga has already visited the doctor, and he has informed her that there is nothing wrong with her. Gallimard’s castration anxiety and fertility anxiety are evident as he refuses to see Dr. Bolleart. He feels incompetent because he feels like “God himself is laughing at [him] if [he] can’t produce a child” (Hwang 40). Song, as a traditional Chinese woman, explains to Gallimard that in China, if a wife cannot provide her husband a child, he will find another wife to give him his son. Song also assures Gallimard that he is the man she loves, and she will not let the doctor “judge” her man. She tells him that she wants to have his child (Hwang 41). Song’s word and action are those of the Perfect Woman’s as Gallimard wishes for. Song makes him feel adequate and masculine. She does not mind that he has to honor someone else as his wife while Song is his secret lover. Song’s depiction of Butterfly causes Gallimard to get lost even more in his fantasy. Even if Gallimard is gay, his desire for Butterfly can be explained as something he uses to suppress his homosexual desire. When Song tells him that she is pregnant, Gallimard believes her. Although they never had intercourse, Gallimard wants to feel adequate so badly that he accepts Song’s lie as truth.

During trial in Paris, Song tells the judge how he managed to fool Gallimard for so many years. He explains that “[t]he West has sort of an international rape mentality towards the East” (Hwang 62). This means that the Western men believe that when an Asian girl says no, she actually means yes. The West thinks that the East “wants to be dominated…” (Hwang 62). Song succeeded in fooling Gallimard by becoming his fantasy woman, making him want to believe that she was really a woman. Furthermore, Song can “never be completely a man” because he is Asian (Hwang 62). Song’s criticism of the West stays true to this day when Asian men are often deemed by the Western society to be not masculine enough.

Song understands that Gallimard has always known that the woman he thought he loved is actually a man. Gallimard pretends to not know Song’s real gender, refuses to see Song’s true form when he strips all his clothes before him. Gallimard is similar to the boy who “refused to take cognizance of the fact of his having perceived that woman does not possess a penis” (Freud 153). Song is Gallimard’s homosexual desire. He is the “Perfect Woman” to Gallimard. When Song strips, there is a reversal of roles in rape mentality. Gallimard thinks that Song, as an Asian man, has an international rape mentality. When Gallimard tells Song to stop stripping, Song believes that he actually wants to see him strip. Song says to Gallimard, “You know something, Rene? Your mouth says no, but your eyes say yes…” (Hwang 65). By stripping, Song makes Gallimard think about his own sexual identity and realize that their affair was more than espionage and the fantasy of Madame Butterfly. Gallimard figures out that his affair with Song was his homosexual desire. Song wants him to believe that he adores the woman who was actually a man. Gallimard now realizes that the love he thought he had was only in his mind. The woman he loved was only someone he created.

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Oh god. Too many annoying PC fags and fag hags here.

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