MovieChat Forums > The Joy Luck Club (1993) Discussion > For all those who say this is anti-Asian...

For all those who say this is anti-Asian men...


Amy Tan wrote The Joy Luck Club out of her own experiences and her mother's. Her mother was in fact married to an abusive husband in China; she says just how much of all her novels come from her own experience in her new book The Opposite of Fate. Also, in Tan's book The Bonesetter's Daughter, there is in fact a very, very kind Asian man that the mother falls in love with, Kai Jing. Tan says little on modern Asian or Asian-American men, although that could indeed be a case where the absence of evidence is evidence. (There is an Asian-American male protagonist in The Hundred Secret Senses, but he is only half Chinese.) Although she may indeed be biased, the only way to be completely unbiased is to be completely ignorant or completely indifferent.

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You are an apologist trying to defend your beloved idol. The fact is, Amy Tan doesn't even know about Chinese culture but pretends to. She grew up in the US and her Chinese phrases and cultural hints are wrong and come off as if she writes what she *thinks* Chinese people were like (in order to please Western readers and their superiority complex ideas about China).

Most of her books depict Asian men in a poor light and simultaneously write her Asian women with White saviors ('White Knight Syndrome'). She is basically an Uncle Tom author who kisses butt to White people in order to make money, trashing her culture and her people along the way.

Amy Tan writes crappy books to depict Asian men as these evil sexist misogynists. Anyone who knows a Chinese family well knows how the wife/mom bosses the husband and kids - they have absolute power in the family. Asian feminists who buy into Amy Tan's crap propaganda abandon Asian culture, and flee to specifically White men under 'White Knight' syndrome. White men suppressed women as well, would use them as marriage objects for political alliances, had metal chastity belts and corsets, and even to this day there are more stay-at-home moms per capita in the US than in China.

Some Asian women who have self-hate and a White fetish, like to bash Asian men to mask their true intentions, which is to be a complete sell-out. They are easy to spot, because they do not consider American men of any other race, only White men (like Amy Tan and Lucy Liu).

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"She is basically an Uncle Tom author" I thought you would call her a banana or something (yellow on the outside, white on the inside)

This film came on television, and although not being Asian, I didn't like what I was seeing and stop watching. I was beginning to feel it was knocking Asian males, and I can't buy the idea that all Asian males are crappy guys. In other words, it looked racist.






Anyway, the black author of "Waiting to Exhale" is not like Amy Tan. MacMillian does not bash black men in her book. Only says that lovemaking should be more tender as they have a mistaken idea about what pleases women. (This cricism applies to every race, really) MacMillian was wise enough to make critical comments about black males without offending them. Her character's being upset over a black man leaving her for a white woman is understandable. And she writes in such a way as if to say "I'm only talking about these different guys, not all black men) And she admits there are black men who she goes crazy in love about, and those that turn her off.

Did Tan balance the good Asians with the bad ones?

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It amazes me how atrociously asian men are portrayed in american cinema. They're either invisible or portrayed in a demeaning, stereotypical manner. It's much worse for them than for black men but the general public seems to not give a damn. Think about it. What are the images of asian men you've seen while growing up: asexual kung fu guys, subservient coolie, wife-beater, nerd, the sneaky jap, delivery boy, etc. The images are terrible. It wouldn't be so bad if there was balance. But there's nothing close to a balance! No wonder asian men have such a hard time dating non-asian women in america.

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How are black males presented in Asian cinema? Or American white males?

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Although I didn't outright notice the biased and atrocious portrayal of the Chinese men in the movie when I watched it, I realize it now that I think about it. All the husbands or ex-husbands of the women and their daughters are in some way horrible, inhumane, ugly, old, uncaring or indifferent (except June's father).
So yea the movie does present highly stereotypical and biased images of Chinese men to the American public.

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Actually, I take some of my comment back. Some of those portrayals are somewhat realistic in certain time periods shown in the movie. But it still seems that Amy Tan dislikes Chinese men because she only advocates one side and view on Chinese men. But that was back in older China. Even so, she still leaves out any good images of more modern chinese men, having white men take their place.

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A lot of older movies, considered classics, are somewhat ruined in effect now because of a negative Asian portrayal. A beautiful animated film like Lady and the Tramp becomes uncomfortable when the sneaky siamese cats with buckteeth arrive. Another is Breakfast at Tiffany's with Holly's bucktoothed Asian neighbor played by white actor, Mickey Rooney.

For The Joy Luck Club, I thought its basic premise was to show that modern Asian(or Chinese, actually) women struggle with relationships/hardships like any other woman, and to enlighten non-Chinese to a different type of cultural/familial background. It was like a conglomerate of various stories for that purpose, not necessarily meant to define that all Asian men were inclined to be a jerk or that all Asian women were bound to face relationship troubles/lifestyle opposition because of their culture and gender.

I like this movie. Whenever I watched it, which has been several times, I always cried at certain parts, but happy towards the end when the women found someone they were comfortable with or were able to work it out with their partners. Mostly, however, I was glad that the mothers and daughters were able to bridge a connection between American culture and Chinese heritage and discover their own self-worth and respect.

But I can't think of any recent movie or tv program I've seen that positively, accurately details the lives of a group of Asian-American men, however.

By your generalization, I think Asian guys (or anyone, really, regardless of race) should be more optimistic when asking for a date from someone of another race. I'm a white girl, but no Asian boy ever asked me out. In fact, I don't think any talked to me in high school, but once in middle school. Is it because I pretty much resembled dorky Sara from The Maxx and not blonde, buxom Julie, eh?

We all stereotype each other no matter what color our skin is, including people of our own race, and sometimes we even believe the stereotypes pointed at us. That doesn't always mean everyone follows or believes those judgements to the letter.

(stopping here. I've made my post too big and I'm tired of writing, hehe)

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I'll buy you flowers... like no other girl did before.

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"For The Joy Luck Club, I thought its basic premise was to show that modern Asian(or Chinese, actually) women struggle with relationships/hardships like any other woman, and to enlighten non-Chinese to a different type of cultural/familial background."

I agree that most of the men were portrayed poorly in the film. But I related it more to four women who had extremely bad circumstances in their old country, and became friends for exactly that reason in America. They could relate to one another. Because all of these women had their baggage, it seemed that their American-born daughters fall into the same traps. (Although not as extreme, for sure.) I'm not saying this is a perfect explanation, but I took it as a more "anti-men" movie than specifically anti-Asian men. The most tender scene, I thought, was between June and her father. He was amazing.

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My husband married me and my husband's best friend is with another white woman. I grew up with many mixed race kids, especially half white/half Asian.

I don't know why some people push their personal dating issues on a whole demographic like their experiences are the absolute only ones everyone of their race/culture faces. That in itself is racist.

And while I see negative stereotypes in movies, they are mostly in the older movies. Breakfast at Tiffany's and Sixteen Candles are old films, and Asian men are not portrayed like that anymore. And while reading Joy Luck Club in high school, I felt it was talking about a handful of families and their experiences with female-male and mother-daughter relationships, and new values and old values, and I never looked at it like, "well that just goes to show -- Chinese men are a-holes." Who does that?

It's not like the only films or experiences I ever had were stereotypical. I grew up having crushes on mixed Asian men and non mixed Asian men. Like Mark-Paul Gosselaar (Zack, saved by the bell), Dean Cain (superman, adventures of lois & clark), Dante Basco (rufio, Hook), and of course Keanu Reeves.

Today, Asian men may still have a hard time getting starring roles in movies and tv, but so does any other non white actor out there. Hollywood still tries to provide what they think middle America wants or at least will accept. It will keep getting better though, and hopefully in 20 years it will be very normal to cast asian males in leading roles, just like any other race ideally.

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What about Lena's new boyfriend/husband (which it is is never really made clear), who is a devastatingly attractive Chinese male, and portrayed as a wonderful man? Sure, he's only in the movie a few short moments, but it's silly to ignore that portrayal.

For that matter, what about June's father? Or, presumably, Waverly's dad, or the old Piano teacher, or any number of other men who are quietly portrayed as good men?

Do we get all pissed off when white authors write about white men in a negative light? No, we don't. And, by the way, perhaps you should read Amy Tan's book--or watch the whole movie--before making the claims you do. Watching a small part of one movie doesn't give you any real insight into the several books she has written that do not, in any meaningful way, confirm your prejudice.

The truth is, drama comes out of pain, and you can't have pain without showing someone being an *beep* Since the movie, and the book, take place largely in China, some of the Chinese men come off badly. But not all Asian men in Tan's books are portrayed in a negative light, and to claim, as some do, that she's biased and part of a racist agenda is just silly, not to mention ignorant.

Leave straw-man arguments to those weak enough to fall for them.

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What about Lena's new boyfriend/husband (which it is is never really made clear), who is a devastatingly attractive Chinese male, and portrayed as a wonderful man? Sure, he's only in the movie a few short moments, but it's silly to ignore that portrayal.

For that matter, what about June's father? Or, presumably, Waverly's dad, or the old Piano teacher, or any number of other men who are quietly portrayed as good men?


30 seconds on a movie is not a "portrayal". It's a token.

www.itsthejoint.net/community - a forum for lovers of black actors!

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How about when those are virtually your only portrayals onscreen?

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Totally off topic but Lena's new boyfriend is HOT! Man he was so good to look at.

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Totally agree with you.

Besides, what all these women have in common is that they ran away from abusive husbands in their homecountry.
What would you expect from a movie about a therapy group of rape victims? Similarly horrible circumstances with slight variations and different kinds of come-outs, right?

Stereotypes usually have a basis, and a heavily biased one. Old stories can only tell us about how things were back in a certain time period, and our current values are bound to be conflicted with them.
A few days ago a group of friends and I were discussing this exactly. One of the main points was the glorious Captain America and his evil evil evil enemy Red Skull. Not very subtle, right?

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"Chinese family well knows how the wife/mom bosses the husband and kids"

Watch as i deflate that with one phrase..

..."One Child Policy(China)"


:)

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A a Caucasian (born and raised in Germany) woman who is married to a Japanese American? I agree 1000% the US has this stupid stereo type of nearly every ethnic group not thinking that each have one of them LOL. But they include Asians and yes unlike Ang Lee who promotes realistic views of Asians etc. Amy Tan is a Chinese American who seems to be less Chinese than anything. Ive read some of her books and she seems very anti-Asian and knows little or does not want to know about her culture, its like she is ashamed etc. But my point is I agree with the others that she is a fraud, thinks Caucasians are all mighty which as one, is a big joke. Truth is we are the minority of the planet, in fact Asians are the largest ethnic group of the planet and in a few US states the majority Hawaii being one of them. So she is merely spreading stupid racist crap about Asians. Of which I know are all just the usual age old US racism. Sad very sad....

Dr.Nichole A. MD. AKA Nicky was here.

I never revisit posts. Too busy and mature to argue.

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Let's face it. If a movie has a married man in it who holds a regular job, loves his family, brings home the money, etc., he is considered to be so boring as to drive people out of the theater.

So, obviously, the "other kind of man" is portrayed in the movies.

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I never thought this movie was anti-Asian men. The bad men that the women encountered were just "a"-holes, regardless of culture/colour/whatever. There were good Asian men - just look at the dads! Even though, yes, they didn't figure into the movie that much, but they were still there and seemed stable and kind. And let's not forget, there were bad "white" men too, Andrew McCarthy for one.

The stories are the women's; and the women just happened to run into big jerks. Big jerks can exist in any country of any colour, religion, language or gender.

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Yes, Ithinktoomuch, that's exactly my thought too. The men were a-holes regardless of culture/color etc. And the fathers is this book/film were stable and kind, which this thread seem to have forgotten. So was the pianoteacher. And had Amy Tan written about European or WASP-culture, she'd written about a-holse then too. Just look at how Rich is described. White man wich is so incredably rude in manners, it's ubelievable.
The point is, the books Amy Tan writes is not really about the men, it's about the women. And she's also portraying their own difficultis in communicating their needs and wishes. Which in turn makes them easy to run over. Take Lenas marriage, for instance. Her domnestic problems were very much based on lack of communication. Her marriage wouldn't have been so bad (or she would've divorced earlier, perhaps) if she had been clearer on what she wanted out of life.

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They blew up Congress!!! HAHAHA!

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Her domnestic problems were very much based on lack of communication. Her marriage wouldn't have been so bad (or she would've divorced earlier, perhaps) if she had been clearer on what she wanted out of life.


I would agree with that more if they hadn't cast Harold as a Chinese guy when he was white in the book.

It was just sort of adding more fuel to the 'Asian Guys are Jerks' fire.

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"My name is Sue! How do you do!?! Now you gonna die!" - Johnny Cash

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First I have to clear this up before remarking upon the movie: Oriental is a style of decorating and has nothing to do with race. Not to mention it is an offensive term that comes from western imperialism.

Anyway, the movie and the book is not from a male perspective of life, so it will not be told as such. Joy Luck is about these women's hardships, without the hardship there is no story. Many hardships in women's lives come from men, family and children. Rape, desperation and violence happen, and it happened in these character's lives. If there is a Joy Luck for men then we could see it from their perspective. Just because there isn't doesn't mean it's sexist.

Sometimes you just need to take things as they are, listen to the words and hear the stories, NOT try to force each and every detail into an agenda that we may have.

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I never figured she was trying to say all Asian men are *beep!*s, I thought she was describing individuals who happened to be *beep!*s. After all, Ted was kind of a *beep!* too, and he was white. Plus the fact that if I've read my Chinese literature correctly, the whole thing between Huang Tai-Tai and Lindo is bang-on.

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Thats really sad because it seems like the sweetest man in the whole movie was the main character's father... and he was Asian, right? And what about the white man that Rose had married that treated her like crap until she stood up to him? Wasn't Rose's mother's first husband a good man?

I have read several of Amy Tan's books and never left thinking that it somehow glorifies white and disses Chinese men. The stories are of Chinese ladies who lived and loved and lost while living in China during the 30's. Yes LOVED GOOD Chinese men but somehow lost them and ended up with bad ones. It would be pretty unusual for them to have met and married white males during WWII in China. When they came to the United States some of her characters married White Americans and some married Asian men. And many of the main "second generation" characters have to stand their ground in order to make their marraiges work with White men. No white male glorification there, just woman making a marriage work without feeling like they are being run over or stepped on. In one of the books, a white American tries to rape the Chinese-American daughter. Long story short, the stories are about the relationships between mothers and daughters and the hardships women have overcome. They have nothing to do with Asian or White American men and could be told the same for any race if placed in the right time period.

And "Uncle Tom" should be removed from the English Language with the rest of the racial slurs. What a crappy thing to say.

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I am a 21 year old Chinese male born and raised in California, currently studying in London.

I watched this film, and I thought it was overtly anti-Asian male. Amy Tan's so called "insight" into Chinese culture is quite frankly rubbish. Her mother's life experiences do not sum up an entire nation and culture. Yes, Chinese culture was and still is very patriarchal, yes Chinese women in the old days were treated badly, main job to reproduce or be a faithful wife but I wished she wouldn't tar the entire culture with her narrow minded brush.

Maybe its because i'm a young male who grew up in the 90s, but the book which i half read and the movie just doesn't connect with me. Maybe its because I'm Chinese myself. I would consider myself more American than Chinese, but yeah, I still speak Mandarin and I have studied Chinese history at university, so I'm not a complete Banana.

As for the Asian female/White male and the inferred self loathing and dislike of Asian males, I can't say. My sister never went out with as Asian male, and is marrying a French/Mauritian guy from our church. Very large numbers of Asian females at university prefer Anglo-Saxon white males, I can't put my finger on it, but that's just the way it is.

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self hate

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Is anyone familiar with Michelle Malkin? She's an author and on Fox News all the time. She is used as a minority to basically spout white supremacist thought, and even make self-racist or apologist arguments against minorities and other Asian Americans.
She derives self esteem by pandering to White men. Asian Americans like her try to assimilate at all costs, which includes being a willing Uncle Tom.

Amy Tan is the same way. All of her works have a strong White Knight streak in them, while perpetuating false and damaging stereotypes of Asian males.

For some reason America can't and doesn't get away with constantly demonizing Indian, Middle Eastern, South American etc males in any of its other cultural identity films, but it seems really easy to demonize Asian males without really getting called out on it.

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I honestly don't think it's anti-Asian male, especially not the book. If anything I got the sense that it was perhaps criticism against the patriarchal Asian societies they lived in, but not specifically against Asian males.

Rose's husband and Ying-Ying's second husband were white and they were portrayed negatively to some extent. I think Lena's crappy husband was also meant to be white, I don't know why they made him Asian in the movie.

It was really immature of me, but I actually read the book because I had a crush on an Asian guy and I wanted to get over him. I thought, 'Oh, The Joy Luck Club! Surely the negative stereotypes of Asian males in this book will make me stop liking him.'

My point is that I came into the book wanting to see negative stereotypes of men, and I didn't pick that up at all. I wonder how many people who criticise that aspect of The Joy Luck Club have actually read the book.

The movie was quite bad about the 'White Knight' thing, but the book wasn't really.

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How come, in Hollywood flicks we see mostly see Black-Black couples, or Latin-Latin couples, but Asian women are always paired with a White guy? It seems like most TV shows and movies in the past ten years exclusively pair an Asian girl with a White (or Black) guy romatically. Asian men are being completely suppressed and excluded in television and film.

It blows my mind that no Asian actresses are willing to object to the scripts, or fight against these negative stereotypes. They don't understand the power of TV/film to mold the way people think. Way too many AA writers and creators these days have self hate or White worship.

These shows affect kids. Teens, especially girls, judge themselves on others' opinions, and are easily influenced. Young, insecure Asian girls are conditioned through social norms/media to 'act White' and want only White men (self hate), and young Asian American boys growing up in the US are conditioned to think they are unattractive. Some Asian youth resolve identity conflict by developing self-hate and bashing their heritage, family, and people (ex 'I won't date Asians', or criticizing other Asians including saying self-racist things).

Whether it be fashion magazines, gossip mags, TV, movies, or our friends, all of us are influenced and emulate in some way what we see on screen. Entertainment can be as influential as advertising in "branding" groups of people. So many shows and movies in America demean Asian men, while perpetuating an 'Asian Girl Fetish' in this country. It is Hollywood Colonialism....

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I completely agree with you; I've noticed for a long time how negatively Asian males are portrayed in American television and I think Hollywood Colonialism is an excellent way to put it.

Growing up as a white girl in a western country with many Asian immigrants, I discovered that many white females had such negative attitudes towards Asian males even though almost none of them had been friends with or dated one. The girls I went to High School with and University would constantly think it was humiliating or hilarious to be asked at by an Asian male for various reasons, mostly because they believed them to be 'dorks' or 'geeks', have small equipment, be inferior, unattractive, lack similar morals or involved with some sort of crime like drugs (this 'crime' stereotype was most often linked with South East Asian guys). However, it is not difficult to see why these women had formed such negative perceptions when you watch American TV shows and films. The Asian male is always portrayed as emasculated, weak, unattractive and/or violent and often linked to crime.

Asian women on the other hand are portrayed as feminine, patient, compassionate and submissive. However, I now live in Asia and I see these American stereotypes are completely false. In the AF/AM relationships I have seen living in Asia, the women are not how they are portrayed in Hollywood at all, they are in fact controlling and often dictate and make demands of their Asian male partners.

After living among so many Asian males, I don't believe they're too different to white or black males; each person has their own individual character qualities and although some Asian men can be called geeks, or could be weak/submissive or violent and controlling, it doesn't mean they're all the same. These are qualities that are not just unique to Asian men either. I've known many white men with all the negative physical and personality qualities listed above.

I have never let these misconceptions of race stereotypes affect how I judge people, but I agree with the above poster that some people are a lot more easily influenced by the media, especially the younger generations.

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