MovieChat Forums > Gettysburg (1993) Discussion > Another question about Lee's strategy

Another question about Lee's strategy


I'm watching the film a second time, to pick up on things I missed at first. One thing I still don't understand: After the failed attack on Little Round Top, Longstreet suggests to Lee that the "way to the right" is still open. Lee says he will think about it but then never mentions it again. Does anyone know, either in the context of the film or in real life, why Lee rejected this strategy and instead opted for the suicidal attack on the center? I still don't see what the big deal was about maneuvering to the right (I guess on a map this meant to the west?). Lee was so strict about it that Hood had no choice but to lose half his men attacking Little Round Top. I can understand the reason for not retreating from Gettysburg after fighting to take it (morale) but why not allow just a little maneuvering?

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As Lee explained to Longstreet as he briefed him on the plan on the morning of July 3, "The enemy has reenforced on both flanks. He must be weak in the center."

Fatally flawed logic, but when you're the Army commander and a full General (the equivalent of a 4-star in today's US Army), even a Lieutenant General and Corps commander (equivalent of a 3-star) like Longstreet can have trouble convincing you of its flaws! Michael Shaara wrote the original book as a Greek or Shakespearean tragedy set in the Civil War, and this is the point where the heroic figure's hubris brings the tragedy and woe upon himself.

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Yeah, now that you mention it, the story definitely does have a Greek/Shakespearean vibe to it!

But are you saying that Lee believes that Longstreet is wrong about the way to the right still being open (i.e. it has been reinforced)? Or is it just that Lee thinks an attack on the right would work but that an attack on the center is a better plan?

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If I remember right from the novel there was a place to the right that Hood thought would be better place to fight on the second day. Longstreet suggested it but Lee said no. Hood was fighting the battle of Devil's Den. Not Little Round Top. I think the area to the right was somewhere near Devil's Den. But for whatever reason Lee objected to it.

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Ah, I see. Lee's reason for rejecting it is what I was wondering about, though. He never really specifies. He tells Longstreet he'll think about it but then the next morning launches right into his plan for the attack on the center. Unless when Lee says the Union is strong on the flanks, he's implying that's why even a maneuver to the right still wouldn't work.

I also don't see what the big deal was about maneuvering before Devil's Den/Little Round Top. Longstreet tells Hood that Lee won't allow it. Seems really hardheaded. I can understand not wanting to pull back the entire army from Gettysburg, but not even a maneuver around the enemy still with the intention of destroying the Army of the Potomac?

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General Hood to Longstreet:

"Let me go up the big round hill to the south, there is nobody on that"

He is obviously referring to Big Round Top, apparently Hood wanted to seize it rather than attack Little Round Top which was already heavily occupied. Whether or not this is what Longstreet was referring to when he mentioned the way around to the right still being open I'm not sure. We know that Union troops occupied Big Round Top the third day but I'm not sure when they got up there.

Whether or not this was a viable fruitful strategy for the south I'm not sure. At first glance having the highest point on the battlefield would seem critical, but Big Round Top as Longstreet pointed out was to heavily wooded to be an ideal place for artillery placement. Probably both the trees and Little Round Top would have obstructed their view of the Union position. However, it might have been a worthwhile objective for the South to send at least a brigade or two up it if it was unoccupied, because for one thing it would not have taken very many troops to hold it, and for another it could have easily facilitated a downhill infantry flanking assault, if not the second day than definitely the third. The South didn't necessarily have to send artillery up there, their artillery could have supported such an assault from their own position from either the Devil's Den or the Peach Orchard.

At least that's how I see it, but I don't claim to be a military expert. Any thoughts anyone? I visted the Gettysbrug battlefield once, plan to again, I plan to take a closer look at Big Round Top to see how easily the South could have got troops up there, of course it depends on when the Union got up there.

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The far right brigade of Hood's division did go up (Big) Round Top, which was too heavily wooded to be of any use. They saw that Little Round Top, which was unoccupied at that time, commanded the entire Federal left, so they started down to occupy it. By the time they got there, however, Vincent's Brigade, including the 20th Maine, had taken up positions, and that's where you get the fight shown in the film. There was also an attack -- mostly artillery, IIRC -- on the other face of LRT from the Confederates who had taken Devil's Den, but the Federals were able to hold on.

If that first, fairly small group had beaten Chamberlain's force, they would have had a hard time holding on against an inevitable counterattack in force; the Federal high command was pouring all the reinforcements they could find into that sector, to fill the gap left when Sickles took the Third Corps far out in front to the Peach Orchard and the Emmitsburg Road, and the Confederates on LRT, who were far from the rest of the army, would have been hard to reinforce. I also don't think they had any artillery, which is what you would have wanted to make proper use of LRT.

It's not shown in either the film or the novel, but Sickles almost wrecked the entire Federal position by moving his corps out in front, far removed from contact with anyone else. (He thought that the Peach Orchard was a better artillery position, which it probably was, but not connected to the rest of the line.) Lee had thought the entire Federal army was up around Cemetery Hill, and wanted Longstreet to push up the Emmitsburg Road and hit them from behind. If Sickles had been where he was supposed to be, he would have been right on the flank of that attack and would have smashed it. Instead, he was out in front and got hit from two sides while Meade had to scramble all over the field trying to find troops to plug the various gaps that opened up. He succeeded, but it was really close; at one point, the Confederates actually got through the Federal center, near where Pickett was supposed to go the next day, but no one came up to support them, and they had to fall back. (The same thing would probably have happened to Pickett if his men had gotten through.)

Sickles, incidentally, got his leg shot off in the attack, so he had to be evacuated to a hospital in Washington even as the battle was going on. As a result, he was the first witness who actually talked to Lincoln, and to hear Sickles tell it, his movement forward had saved the entire Federal army (!!). As a politician, he took the lead in setting up the battlefield as a park, and some of the older monuments repeat that version of it.

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But isn't Culp's Hill fairly heavily wooded as well? And it proved to be very useful to the Union on the right flank.

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The summit of Culp's Hill was pretty quiet; it was where they parked the remnants of the First Corps, which had been badly chewed up on the first day.

The Federals fought defensively on the lower, southeastern slopes of CH through the evening of the second day and morning of the third. (There was some tactically offensive work in the open area around Spangler's Spring, but its purpose was to recover and shore up the Federal position.) They weren't trying to attack the Confederates from the wooded area, but just to keep them out of the Federal right rear.

For much the same reason, the Confederates were unable to attack Cemetery Hill from the town of Gettysburg itself, which came right up to the foot of the hill; there was no room to deploy in line of battle. They could only try to hit the hill from east or west.

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We visited Gettysburg on vacation some years ago. I had no idea that the north slope of Cemetery Hill is so high above the town, probably 40 feet with a 30 degree slope at least, and of course Culp's Hill is much higher.



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According to a couple of recent histories on "Gettysburg" I've read, Longstreet wasn't talking about the right of the Union line, he was talking about slipping the ANV around between Washington and Meade's army, which he thought Lee originally intended to do. Lee had worked himself up to where he could say "the enemy is there, and I'm going to hit him there."

IMO it still wouldn't have worked because the Union still had the interior lines and a direct route back to the original Pipe Creek line while nearly half of Lee's army was still west, east and in Gettysburg. Stewart's cavalry was worn out, though resting on the 3rd would have been helpful.

Either way, Lee was probably wrong and would have been better off sitting out the 3rd and preparing his army to retreat back to Virginia as he did on the 4th and 5th.



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There are several parallels with Waterloo. What was Lee thinking?

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Lee's original plan for Day 3 WAS that there would be an attack on the (Confederate) right in morning, and an attack on Culp's Hill was planned for the same time. But two things caused Lee to abandon that idea and go up the middle. First, the Union got the jump on the Confederates at Culp's Hill and attacked before the Confederates could, driving them back off the hill and wrecking the first prong of Lee's plan. The second prong - the attack on the right - was wrecked because for some unknown reason the orders to do so were never properly conveyed to the field, and even if they had been properly conveyed, the loss of Culp's Hill would have destroyed any chance of an attack on the right working.

After all this happened is when Lee decided to go up the middle with Pickett's fresh troops as the backbone. The movie doesn't convey any of the messed up original morning plans - time constraints.

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I think that after day 1 when Lee saw how the Union was dug in and owned the high ground, he should've retired his army and left. He then could've forced the union army away from Gettysburg and then had a better chance to pick another place to fight.
Attacking the union army after day 1 was an egotistical decision based on his train of thought that he would win in almost any situation.
He should've learned of Fredericksburg where the union army attacked the south over a large field. The south was dug in and that battle was a preview of Pickett's Charge.
How he forgot Fredericksburg's lesson, I'll never understand.

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The other thing to remember in all of this, as is suggested in the film, Lee is more or less blind to what is actually happening; cavalry are your eyes and ears, as well as a screen to movement, and in this regard Lee was, firstly, surprised at finding the Union forces where he did and, secondly, unaware of the full concentration of forces at Gettysburg until too late. His strategy up until now had been, more or less, as a roaming hit and run, and that's what Longstreet was advocating here again, to withdraw and/or flank the Union army and perhaps advance on an unguarded Washington.

That Lee (in both the movie and real life) made a stand at Gettysburg is testament to both his unrelentless victories up until this point, and his opinion that the Union may not be able to withstand one more great and crushing defeat, which he thought Gettysburg had the opportunity to provide.

As with Waterloo, we have the benefit of hindsight and knowing where all the players are on the table; on the day, however, a commander is making the best use of the intelligence available at the time.

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Within the context of the book/movie and in reality, there are two different alternates about going "to he right".

General Hood mentions it shortly before going on the attack on Day 2. Hood is referring to a smaller scale flanking movement around the immediate Union right, behind the Round Tops and, ideally, into the Union army's immediate rear with perhaps a brigade or division-sized attack. Given what we now know (but which Longstreet did not know then), this might not have been the worst idea in the world, but such an attack would not have been large enough or had the support sufficient to make any lasting gains that could have changed the outcome of the battle. Longstreet would have had to put his entire corps into the maneuver in order to have had a real impact, but, even if he had been willing (and he wasn't), there was no way that he could have done it, given the time constraints, and, with the limited screening cavalry available, he could well have been attacked on his own flank if he'd tried it (Judson Kilpatrick's cavalry was, I believe, active in that part of the battlefield at that time, and Kilpatrick... as his nickname "Kill Cavalry" suggests... never saw an enemy unit he wouldn't charge into regardless of the odds).

The "way to right" Longstreet refers to in your post above is a different maneuver. Longstreet suggested throughout the campaign and, even as the battle was unfolding, that Lee should be seeking to maneuver the entire Confederate army between the Union Army and Washington, DC, finding strong ground, and then letting the Union army attack them. Lee had done the same thing in the past with smashing success (notably in the campaign leading to Second Manassas) so it would not have been an out-of-character maneuver, and, given what we know now, it might just have worked. HOWEVER, those... including Longstreet... who make the case for this movement after the fact, typically do so without a lot of the context. Lee was in enemy territory without most of his cavalry (remember Jeb Stuart had gotten himself separated from the Confederate army and only returned, with his men and horses completely exhausted and unready for any exertions at all, after the battle had begun) and with a very tenuous supply line back to Virginia should retreat eventually be necessary. Making such a maneuver without properly scouting the route (which cavalry would have done) and without proper screening to keep from being surprised by the Union army while strung out on the march (again, a job for cavalry) and with enemy civilians everywhere who would pass the word to Union troops first chance they got would have been dangerous in the extreme. Yes, it could have opened a path to win the battle... and, perhaps, the war... but it also and more likely could have opened the Confederate army up for a defeat... a defeat without a clear line of retreat that could have not just ended the campaign but resulted in the destruction of the Army of Northern Virginia and the end of the Confederacy. Even for someone as bold and aggressive as Lee, that would have been a pretty massive risk.

FYI, if you are curious about how such a maneuver might have played out, check out Newt Gingrich's alternate history novel "Gettysburg". He comes up with a semi-reasonable scenario by which Lee does perform such a maneuver and how it might have turned out.

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Lee had been trained in Napoleonic warfare, where sheer manpower made the difference, but failed to take into consideration, as Longstreet did, that the advent of modern weaponry- particularly the accuracy of the rifled musket- had changed all that. Lee was fighting a modern war with outdated tactics. He believed 15,000 men, concentrated at a central point, would be an "irresistible" force. He was also reinforced in this belief by his other field commanders. Longstreet was essentially outvoted.

But it was also, at least within the context of the film, a matter of pride. "I have never left the enemy in command of the field." It was a point of honor, not to manuever.

But even if he had followed Longstreet's advice, and moved toward Washington, it would have resulted in defeat. Washington was fortified, and he would simply have become trapped between two Union armies. The invasion of the North was a calculated risk that required a miracle (the destruction of the Army Of The Potomac,) in order to be successful. The South wasn't that lucky.

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Interestingly, no army of either side was ever crushed until December 1864 when Hood's Army of the Tennessee was destroyed as an effective fighting force at Franklin and Nashville, TN. Although Joe Johnston was able to put together fragments of that army and a few others to counter Sherman's advance through the Carolinas, with the exception of a (relatively) minor battle at Bentonville, NC, its actions were mostly skirmishes and retreats.

Is it possible that Lee could have totally disorganized the AoP? I don't think so; I don't think his army ever had the strength.

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You raise a valid point. Bottom line was that Lee needed to essentially destroy the Army of the Potomac in order really accomplish anything with lasting impact in Pennsylvania. Simply defeating them, and allowing them to retreat toward Washington to refit and then march toward Richmond again in a month or two wasn't going to do it. And there is no realistic alternate actions Lee could have taken to accomplish that. The Army of the Potomac was simply too well-trained at that point.

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