MovieChat Forums > Gettysburg (1993) Discussion > The Obvious Query About Lee And His Fell...

The Obvious Query About Lee And His Fellow Rebel Commanders:


would you describe them as traitors?
Not just the USA, but practically every country in the world has experienced moments in which a citizen, and particularly a military man, has to decide whether his ultimate loyalty is to the central government of his country, or to his particular province, which is now in revolt.
The ,,Spanish'' armies in the Latin American Wars of Independence were mostly composed of Latin Americans who had relatives in the insurgent armies.

God is subtle, but He is not malicious. (Albert Einstein)

reply

No. Patriots.

reply

Patriots to their newly formed country, the CSA. Enemies of the country they rejected, the USA.

reply

It could be argued that they were remaining loyal to the original idea for the United States, which was for strong and largely independent states that were to be served by a relatively weak federal government.

Certainly what we have today, with a bloated and overly-powerful federal government, is not what the Founding Fathers envisioned when they revolted against England.

reply

^

reply

Nope, patriots to their respective states...In the words of Robert E. Lee: “Save in the defense of my native State, I never desire again to draw my sword.”

reply

"would you describe them as traitors?"

Yes.

"The ,,Spanish'' armies in the Latin American Wars of Independence were mostly composed of Latin Americans who had relatives in the insurgent armies."

And The German and Russian ones too.

reply

Of course they were traitors. Just like Major Nidal Hassan, who decided his loyalty to Islam was greater than his oath as an Army officer & killed 13 fellow soldiers & wounded 30 more at Fort Hood, is a traitor. One who is currently on death row in Fort Leavenworth. The only difference is that the Confederate traitors killed far more than 13 of their fellow soldiers.

reply

The Confederate States were not founded by or fought for by traitors. Those states made the formal decision among themselves to secede from the United States. Although the government of the U.S. wasn't pleased about it, to the Confederate States it was a legal and justified undertaking. There is no rational comparison between the formation of the C.S.A. and mass murder committed by some 21st century lunatic army officer in the name of Islam.

reply

I have seen people on the Lincoln movie board bring this up but I think the Civil War was necessary. And who is to say they ever would have both abolished slavery and not only that but have given African Americans the same rights as white people? I frankly think none of those things ever would have happened if the Confederate States of America was allowed to exist. Honestly I am very much against Slavery in the south and without the Civil War it is doubtful black people in the south ever would have gotten rights had the Confederacy remained.

reply

If you watch the sequel to Gettysburg, Gods and Generals, one character says that if the states secede "slavery will die a natural death." I think this is almost certainly true. Not only were there already plenty of abolitionists in the South at that time but abolition of slavery anywhere in western nations was simply the direction things were moving in.

To think that there would still be slavery in the South today, in the 21st century, strikes me as absurd.

reply

I have seen Gods and Generals and could not get into it cause the guy who played Stonewall Jackson played Pickett in Gettysburg. So instead of seeing Stonewall Jackson I keep seeing Pickett. Plus it has the downside of covering way too much history. Gettysburg worked cause it's covering only 3 days of material. But Gods and Generals suffers from not developing things enough due to limited time.

As for your other comment, I think you are wrong. Though Slavery would have eventually ended, they'd never allowed equality between white people and blacks. Quite a few Southern Politicians at the time of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 were against it. So they probably never would have done that. Plus it'd suck to have our country split into 2 countries. I'd hate having to get permission from the Confederate States of America to visit places like Tenissee.

reply

A few years ago I watched Gettysburg for the first time. I enjoyed it enough that I bought this fine collector's set:

https://www.amazon.com/Gettysburg-Generals-Limited-Collectors-Blu-ray/dp/B004OA684O/

However, I have only now started watching Gods and Generals. Being that the Director's Cut--which I have heard is quite superior to the theatrical cut BTW--is 4 hrs 39 mins long, I am taking my time getting through it. But I am enjoying it so far.

In regard to Stephen Lang playing different characters in each film, I guess it's been long enough since I saw Gettysburg that I didn't even notice.

As for what would've happened with slavery if the Confederacy had won the war, I guess there's no way to know for sure. And while part of me agrees that it would suck to have our country split in two, I can't help but wonder how things would've been otherwise. America in the last 15 years or so has disappointed me greatly. I feel like we, as a nation, have lost our national identity and have become a fundamentally different country than the Founders intended and envisioned. I do wonder, if the Confederacy had won, if perhaps the Confederate States would've done a better job of preserving the vision of Washington, Jefferson and Adams.

reply

Yeah. Our country is very divided. A lot of politicians like Chuck Shaumer and AOC seem to not believe in freeedom of religion and freedom of speech. They think everyone needs to agree with abortion, transgenderism, and $15 dollar minimum wage and that anyone who doesn't agree with those things needs to be silenced or imprisoned. It's crazy. If people want to support those things they have that right but I have the right to disagree with them.

reply

Interesting question.
The United States was a young country in 1861 when the Civil War started. Only 85 years after the Declaration of Independence. The new nation state was formed from previously separate political entities within the British Empire.
The new government was intended to manage interstate and foreign affairs, and not involve itself with matters within the states themselves. Moreover, even as a young nations, the US was vast and varied. Life in Maine was very different from life in Georgia or Texas. It was a nation of countries.

Think of the United Kingdom. It is a nation made up of the countries of England, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland (once all Ireland). Were the Irish traitors for rebelling against London's rule in the early 1900's? Would Scottish people be traitors today if Scotland decided to leave the UK and it turned violent?

The USA is much more united today than it was in 1861. An "American" identity exists. It did not then.

I think where the Confederates fall flat is over the cause of their "rebellion." The enslavement of another human being is never defensible. I understand it was the norm at the time (in the South) and had existed in many societies in history. The "states rights" argument never held water because the only thing you couldn't do in Maine that you could in Georgia was own another human being.

In summation, Confederates were in the wrong, not because they were traitors, but because their actions supported the ownership of human beings.

reply

No law specifically forbade secession. I'd have led the South go in peace repealed the Fugitive Slave Act and let the CSA break up.

reply

Of course.

This isn't even a question.

They literally committed Treason.

reply

Take up arms against the United States: There is zero question. It's right in Federal Law. Along with the punishment.

reply