Whattafook!
A movie about Geronimo, and they have the audacity to bill Wes Studi 4th on the casting list?
How disrespectful can you get?
Arrrrargh!
[deleted]
MovieChat Forums > Geronimo: An American Legend (1993) Discussion > Whattafook!
Unfortunately it's still a white man's world. Thankfully that foundation is being shook to its core in this "post-modern" age.
shareWhy make this into a Indian vs. White thing? Do we have to do that with everything in this country? This was a great movie, with great acting all around. Why can't we leave it at that instead of acting like a bunch of inmature children...
shareYou know what is immature and childish... Is to negate the severe nature of what happened to the Indians.
A holocaust very much like what happened to the Jews is what was propogated on us. Not just tens of millions of beautiful civil intelligent artistic were killed but our culture and unity too. It's impossible to imagine how a person who has viewed this film can have such a stunted view of the world. There is still a terrible problem with racism towards Indians by people and institutions in this country. Including our gov't. and it's current policies that undermine the good things that are going on in Indian Country.
I feel sorry for jfkbuff.
Sorry twobear but there are tons of people likejfkbuff you are so ignorant to the true history of our people and what monstracities we have endured for more than 500 years,All they can say is get over it and forget about the past .This comes from a people who have lost their conection to their ancestors and virtualy have no culture,so its very easy for them to be non simpathatic to our circumstance.
twobear said: A holocaust very much like what happened to the Jews is what was propogated on us. Not just tens of millions of beautiful civil intelligent artistic were killed but our culture and unity too
One cannot compare the two ,as horrible as the jewIsh holocaust was it doesnt compare to the holocaust that our people have experinced and are still experiencing today.Our holocaust is not just physical,its spiritual as well as cultural,and those non indians who either dont reconize our situation or just dont care are just perpetuating the colonization of our people.
It all starts in grade school when the lies are told about us and the history of this country is romantisizes as some great thing that happened in our history books .Its very sad and frustrating that we have to live in a society whos history is based on lies and the injustice of the original people of this land.
[deleted]
Sorry wolfn ,not "was" bigger ,its still happening.The genocide is not over.As long as our people are not free to travel anywhere in this continant,we are under the control of the european.As long as we accept BIA numbers we are still in control of the european.
I know many Mayan indians who have lost family members and had to flee their countrys just because they were indian.Thousands of them were gunned down with machine guns,women and children,just for being indian.This is recent history just a few years ago.The notion that the our holocaust is over is false. And yes its really sad that people, even educated people actually say that our genocide never took place.
[deleted]
>Why can't I be your neighbor? Am I the evil white man, does my skin color make me evil?
Why should races colonize seperately?
I never said that the white man was evil or that you couldnt be my neighbor.
Ever heard of the reservation system? go and visit a reservation and tell me what you think about what has happened to our people.Why are we forced to live on reservations confined to a particular area when this land is ours to begin with?Thats colonization,and just because events didnt happened to me directly doesnt mean that im not effected by them,many of people who are still alive have experinced things that are a direct result of the colonization of my people.Ever heard of the boarding school system? These people are still alive today who experinced horrific things during this time,so dont tell me that because I didnt have something happened to me directly that I should forget and not remember.Ive seen the effects of this first hand by my people ,try having some compasion and go do some real research on what my people have experinced before you say the things that you say.
>Also if you want to talk plain straight truth, many "European" civilians were also massacred by the hand of certain tribes back in history. did I say that the white man is evil ,Im refering to the first european that came here who was evil
this is false and you know it,we never massacred anyone ,please go and do some actual research ,study on your own and stop reading the out dated eurocentric history books that are full of lies.All we did was defend ourselves ,our familys and our way of life.
[deleted]
Isnt it amazing how some white people have no clue to what their ancestors really did,I mean are that clueless,that they dont know that the first europeans were greedy ,rapist ,murderers who actually thought that it was their right to come here and steal our land kill our women and children and force us on reservations.To say the least.What a country we live in where today we indigenous have to remind or even teach those descendants what really took place and how their beloved USA came to be.They actually think that they did no wrong and they say stupid things like "you killed our people also" as if we went to their home land and tryed to do harm to them.I feel bad for some white people who actually know what happened and have to be related to those white people who are cluless to their history.They cant be that ignorant can they wolfn?
share[deleted]
I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Native American, their history and culture. However, what happened to the Indians is just another example of countless wars in history of one culture fighting another to conquer and take over land and power. The white settlers came flocking to this country in droves. Superior numbers combined with superior weapons of war basically spelled the end for the Indians' way of life in North America, as it had been for many centuries. It's unfortunate, it's tragic, but it's just another example of how horrible the human race has been throughout our entire history.
"Funny thing, killin' a man. You take away all he's got, and all he's ever gonna have."
Syrec; I too am white, and I have to say that believing in and hoping for 1 race is simply wishing for other cultures to be assimilited into the dominant culture. An assimilation which equals a cultural and spiritual genocide. And quite frankly the natives have every right to hate us for what we have done, and every right to resist by whatever means necessary.As long as whiteness exists as a dominant cultural norm we need to understand and resist our own white privelege. And besides cultural and racial diversity is much more interesting than have a globalized homogenous race.
sharegreat post cbaile,
thanks for your honesty as well as your understanding of the truth when it pertaines to my people.Its refreshing to hear that there are white people who see the reality of what has happened to my people and who reconizes that we have a RIGHT to resist and even be angry for what has happened.Your compasion and understanding is greatly appriciated.
There's a way to live with earth and a way not to live with earth. We choose the way of earth.
[deleted]
Ha Ha you raise a very good point Syrec. I definitely don't think it would be productive for Native Americans to violently revolt against American culture or specifically caucasians at this point, but I do think they have sufficient reason to be upset over the loss of their culture (a culture which was able to last in balance for thousands of years), and that it would be nice if they could retain what's left. As is generally the case with oppressor/ oppressed relationships the oppressor forgets their role in a conflict long before the oppressed do. This is especially the case in America where on average I don't think black people or Native Americans grow up with the same opportunities as their fellow white citizens.
As for living in peace, I'm of the disposition that conflict including violence is more or less an essential element of the human experience. And in my humble opinion, the frequent spurts of intertribal warfare that many Native American tribes engaged in is far more agreeable than more 'civilized' atomic warfare which indiscriminately renders thousands dead and others immersed in radioactive waste. At least in the tribal variety you see the face of your enemy.
...Not that my opinion or speculation about Native American strategy for dealing with contemporary America matters at all.
shareNo, offence to anyone. But you do realise that the concept of 'race(s)' has largely been discredited. Humans are one race, with many different cultures (a good thing), looks (even within ethnic groups) and skull types (of witch the main groupings (Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid...etc...) are based).
As for the Native American cause. I have always since I was a kid known that the Native American tribes were more in the right against European conquest of their land and then it's dismemberment of it's quite advanced native cultures.
Maybe it's because I am English, and my folk have been oppressed since at least 1066, it's native religion all but eradicated before that (the conversion to Christianity) and the fact the English are being dominated by the Celtic (ironically) and Romance world that I have always found myself, since a child, supporting the oppressed defenders of their culture. It always saddens me when cultures get wiped out and destroyed.
As for Wes Studi, it is odd that he is credited fourth and though I am not sure it is for racist reasons (the film industry does this sort of thing a lot if they have more recognisable stars...like Gene Hackman and Robert Duvall in the film). I'm afraid to say that Wes Studi does not get the recognition he deserves (partly due to him being a Native American...as we all know in Hollywood they hardly exist unless they are in Westerns), as I think he is a great actor.
"Nothings gonna change my world!"
[deleted]
I agree with you twobear......Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee should be required reading in high school so all this is put into perspective.
share[deleted]
shaken not shook GN
suzycreamcheese RIP Heath Ledger 1979-2008
I think billing Wes Studi 4th in the cast list had to do with screen time (though I'm pretty sure he got more screen time than Gene Hackman). Anyways, though you have good points, I think you are stretching it finding evidence of racism in the order of appearance listings.
I can't tell for sure, but I think you guys may be pissed off about this film. If so, you shouldn't be. It's honest. Did Geronimo and his warriors kill American settlers, including unarmed women and children? Yes he did. What we need do understand is that it was in many ways a reactionary visciousness. Whenever a whole people, as opposed to just a ruler or a government, have an'ideological attachement' (thats the wrong phrase, but I can't find the right words) to a conflict, in this case that ideology is the survival of an people and culture, that conflict grows more and more viscious. Especially when the 'antagonist' side (in this case, the USA) is exerting incredible force to either control or destroy the 'protagonists'. Once again, these are perhaps the rong words, but i think I get my point across. Look at the Vietnam Conflict: the yearning for independence from French rule was ingrained deeply into the psyche of the Vietnamese peole. However, as this was consistently denied them, the movement for independence grew more and more radical, more and more viscious. The Native Americans had a yearning for survival, for the continuance of their way of life, ingrained into their psyche as that way of life greew more and more threatened. They were denied this, and as such the conflict was a very vviscious one.
You could make the argument that the conquest of new lands was part of the White American psyche. In fact, it was, however I am drawing a difference between a war for independence (or in the case of the natives, existence) and a war for conquest. The leadership of the White American Settlers carried out a policy that encouraged conflict between regular people and the natives. Conquest was a conscious policy.
Wow, what a rant. I hope I made sense.
Wes Studi was super: should have had more scenes AND been first billed. In general, I felt the actors portraying the Apaches were much more interesting than the cavalry men.
If the film needed narration for clarity, it shouldn't have been by Matt Damon -it put me to sleep. He wouldn't have made the cut for a Ken Burns documentary voice. Damon's character was way too low-key, especially since Jason Patric's character was too, though at least that made sense in Patric's character's relationship to Geronimo, and respect for the Apaches. They seemed more like surfer dudes than calvary officers who are West Point grads.
I couldn't believe how dull this movie's first half was, considering it's powerful subject. Was it because it tried to be so PC or truthful to events ? I don't know, and while watching it didn't care...
"....sometimes we prayed in silence, sometimes each prayed aloud, sometimes an aged person prayed for all of us. At other times one would rise and speak to us of our duties to each other and to Usen. Our services were short."
"We were reckless of our lives, because we felt that every man's hand was against us ... so we gave no quarter to anyone and asked no favors."
Geronimo~
Goyathlay
I am Chiricahua and just like Goyathlay (Geronimo's real name) I hated living in Florida!!
I am Dine' your cousin and I too hated living in florida.
There's a way to live with earth and a way not to live with earth. We choose the way of earth.
[deleted]
Not all indian tribes have casinos and infact there not even owned by the tribes themselves,and free beer and money ,what the heck are you talking about?We dont get free beer or money from anyone.
There's a way to live with earth and a way not to live with earth. We choose the way of earth.
People are people, with good and evil tendencies, but I think it takes having been a part of an oppressed group, or having your people slaughtered like animals on a massive scale, that puts true evil into perspective. As a Jew, when I read about Russian atrocities against German civilians during World War II, I just can't blame them, all things considered. Right or wrong, you look at it as payback. Something about genocide puts you in survival mode, a totally different frame of mind, and you hit back as hard as you can. The idea of killing children, any children, is abhorent to me, as they are completely innocent of the sins of their fathers. However, faced with the murder of my family, tribe, or village, I can't really say what I might be capable of. Even things I normally wouldn't dream of. Thankfully I've never been in that place, and hope I never am. At least there is some history of Indians taking non-Indian children into the tribe and making them their own. How many white settlers adopted Indian children, and how tolerant was the community at large of the few who did?
shareDeep.
There are no more friendly civilians, sir.
hghspray,let me get this straight-you live on a reservation and you are not allowed to leave?Explain.
shareI think what hghspray means captaineast that even though we are technically allowed to leave at least from all I know from my reservation is that it is very tough and hard to leave and make a good life out here in the white land. Me being an Apache myself it took my family over 2 decades to move off of the reservation in Pinetop here in a white community. God has truly blessed my family.
I hope God can do other wonders with the other Natives.
'you seem to have provoked the hostiles.'
Golf clap? Golf clap.
[deleted]