I'm not sure who Sorel really loved? Could anyone tell me what you think about which one of the two women he loved. At the end I'm not understood this issue, because in the last part Sorel repeated many times his love for Mathilde, but in his last moment of life, It seemed me he loved the older woman. thks..
Hello,
This is a interensting question. I have read the book by Stendhal, it is my big favorite. In the book I see it like this:
I would say that for madame de Renal Julien feels a much deeper love, that never is completely forgotten, only moved aside. Between Mathilda and Julien it is more like a game. For her it is a first experience with love, she is enfatuated with him, takes him as a trophy. And he can’t resist, maybe because they are so diffent, and they come from a so different social class. It is more like a mouse and cat game, bit childish.
The feeling for madame de Renal is awakened again by the letter from her, that destroys his future marriage. He is even more enraged by this because of his love for her, he goes and tries to kill her. But in his prison cell they find again they love each other. Even though Julien does not want to be saved, and when he dies, she dies three days after him. And I think that says it all.
I think to understand the complicated relationships and motives better it is best to read the book. I have never seen this movie actually, so I don't know how much it keeps to the book. But the french movie from the 50's with Gerard Philipe is great.
Write me want you think
Best Regards
Barbara, Prague
Kalpur14
I read this book maybe fifteen years ago and I found it great. I just saw the mini serie with Ewan McGregor and it was really beautiful. I love this book and the plot because it is more about the conflict between classes, it is also about feelings and the way life was at that moment, for instance the name of the book Le rough et le noir, symbolize important issues, for instance, le rough means the revolution of the first half of the nineteenth century and le noir reflects the huge power of the church in life people. I agree with you, Sorel's true love was mde. Renal. I would like to see the version of Gerard Philipe, I have no doubt it would be great, I have a VHS with this mini serie, besides, it is presenting in a cable channel, the film zone.
Nice to know your point of view
Kalpurnia from Panama
Hi there!
I do not think that the question who Sorel really loved leads to right angle to understand Julien.
In my opinion, Julien Sorel’s actions are not driven by love but the desire to rise from his low station in society- it would be interesting to know why his father acts so hostile against him.
When he enters the houshold of the Rénals he begins an affair with Madame de Rénoil but he follows the courtship like one would approach a battle. When he enters Madame de Rénoil’s bedroom for the first time he does so with the words: ‘To arms!’ His relationship with Mathilde is even more a lesson in strategic warefare.
I do not think that the women in his life love him, either. Julien is merely being used by everyone. Madame de Rénoil uses him to get back her youth and feel a freedom she never had before. She knows she cannot have him, but she does not want any other woman to have him. Mathilde uses him to fulfill her idea of a heroic love. Even though she risks social ruin she is more in love with the idea of Julien as a heroic lover than with Julien as a person.
Julien tries to better his social status. His relationship with Mathilde would enable him to rise from his station. Madame de Rénoil’s letter ruins his only change to rise from his station. I think this is why he snaps and tries to kill her.
When she visit him in prison he repents his action. Moreover, he tells Madame de Rénoil: ‘I would have lived and died without knowing bliss, had you not entered my prison.’ He himself does not speak of love, it is only Mathilde who interprets this as love. Julien also manages to comfort Mathilde with the words: ‘You were born to live amonst the heroines of forgotten ages. Take their courage, their heart.’
Maybe Julien’s main problem that he is instrumentalized by everyone: as a toy-boy by Madame de Rénoil, a heroic lover by Mathilde and a messenger by her father. His last thoughts are not about love but where truth is to be found. Moreover, he regretts that he has always played a hypocrite, but he does not do himself justice. In the end he is true to himself.
Kalpur14
Deep literary analysis of Julien's character. Because I'm a romantic person I saw this story in the aspect of love. Thanks for your explanation, was great and I have no doubt of your ability to understand the true message in this sort of work of art.
...in the book, he gives up his fight for life (by demanding and accepting the death penalty for his attempted murder of Louise) at more or less the point when he realises that Mme de Renal will look after Mathilde's child if he is not able to marry her. Mathilde, who he was play-acting with, will marry someone else, but cannot keep the child as it would mean social ruin. For Julien, the thought that his child will be looked after by the woman he loves (rather than by its mother) is true bliss...
I disagree that everyone just "used" him - he manipulated Mathilde quite cold-bloodedly, even going to the legnths of courting one of her friends to make her jealous...
And yes, before anyone asks, this is one of my favourite novels....
As fascinating as the book may be, I cannot see that Madame Rénal is his true love in TV series. After all this is still a discussion in the imdb.
The fact that Julien himself manipulates people- esspecially when it comes to love afffairs ("To arms.")- does not alter the fact that he is used himself. He is instrumentalized by his lovers and maybe also by the viewers who want to see him as an romantic hero.
I myself really enjoyed "Scarlet & Black" and my favourite lines are "I'll come to your room tonight. At two!" and "Women, always something wrong with there machinery."
It's a shame that it is not availible on DVD.
Your troubles will cease and fortune will smile upon you.
I loved all the comments and thoughts on Scarlet and Black. This is one of my favorite Ewan films. I was lucky to get it on VHS.
I want to believe that Mdm.Renal was his true love as I loved them together.
But I can see Julian doing everything for power and the women just using him too.
I am a romantic, so I will go with Ewan loving Mdm. Renal to the end.
I also loved the line---I'll come to your room, at two" Best line in the whole film.
Ewan was quite beautiful in the role of Julian and playing this role, only proved what a great actor he was, and that he was going to have a teriffic acting career ahead of him, and of course that has come true.
I think that I have an answer that is going to surprise you....but first....
I'm going to be the one to disagree with the direction most of the comments in this thread have gone.....Firstly....it was written and shown in a way to make you have this very question....they didn't want to give a direct answer....it is wholly up to the interpretation of the viewer/reader. But, how I perceived the love triangle: I saw the love between Sorel and each of the women as a different kind of love for each. Personally I have experienced love for more than one person over my lifetime and we can be pressed to try to decide if we love one more than another and sometimes there is an answer and sometimes there is not....but I do believe that he loved each and they each loved him.
The way things started out with Sorel and Renal was almost definitely due to his desire to move up in the world and to be a powerful man at the very least if only over women like his Hero......but I do believe that he developed a strong love for her as seen throughout as he went back to see her after being at the monastery and receiving her letter even after a long time. He also shows it at the end in the prison with her....I think that what occurred when Mathilde read Renal's letter to him and he promptly went to kill her was a definite crime of passion....He was upset about how it was ruining the life he was currently leading but also it was a betrayal from his first love and it also meant that she may not love him like he thought.......and it could be that if she didn't love him...he didn't want either of them to live....that is why most murder suicides occur in real life......he was so torn up at the thought of how she might hate him now that he couldn't bare to not act. And her interest in him started out of sheer lust due to the great feeling she got from this young handsome man's attention...but she always loved him and that was in evidence even to the end with her death after him. Her feelings for him were definitely real....she struggled with how it distracted her from God which is the only reason she sort of betrayed him and let him die for the attempt on her life at the end.
Now......that's all ONE love story....but he had another one with Mathilde....it started out with her admiration of him and he not giving her a second glance....but she made her presence known with persistence and you can see him deciding that he would give it a shot if only for where it may get him in the world...so he goes to be with her without good intent, that is certain...but he very obviously falls for her quickly.....he refers to the perfect passion they had and he is tormented by the way she treats him and changes his direction in life trying to manipulate his way back to her.....he did everything he did from the moment he gave in to her passion to try to get back and stay with her.....he did love her in a much more tumultuous way......I see it as such because I personally have had love relationships like both of these in a way so i understand how they can both be.
I do think that he has a darkness about him and his desire to do for his hero is what prompted his eventual love with both women but he would give them both up to die with honor (sort of) and so he does......HIS REAL LOVE IS NAPOLEON first.........the other two women fall in second in most likely a tie. That's my take on it :)
This line of text confuses me on everyone's posts as it is usually unrelated to the topic at hand...