MovieChat Forums > Babylon 5 (1993) Discussion > Various Trap Doors (poss spoilers)

Various Trap Doors (poss spoilers)

posted 8 years ago by kerryedavis
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I just read again some of the explanations JMS gave for "trap doors" especially the ones related to the Susan Ivanova character.

Supposedly Lt Cdr Takashima in "The Gathering" was supposed to be a deep-cover traitor/mole, and when Tamlyn Tomita didn't return for the series, Ivanova took over that role and position. And THEN when Andrea Thompson decided to leave the show, the traitor/mole bit was shifted to her Talia Winters character who could then be discovered and leave.

But it doesn't really hold together, because not only was there no real portrayal of Takashima doing anything wrong or deceptive or whatever in The Gathering, there was also none by Ivanova in the following episodes when she supposedly took over that position.

The description of Sheridan's mentoring of Ivanova is very similar to Sinclair's mentoring of Takashima. (Served together on Mars, etc.) But even if Ivanova's "real mission" was somehow delayed until Sheridan arrived to allow for providing the same description of their background, Ivanova wasn't doing anything underhanded after that, either.

Of course you wouldn't expect the other characters to have uncovered a lot of evidence, or at least none that was irrefutable proof against Ivanova (or Takashima). But WE in the audience should have seen it. Except, there wasn't any.

In the end, when it's discovered that Talia was the sleeper agent/mole all along, there's been no reason to have suspected her - even for the audience's sake, let alone the other characters - any more than to have suspected Ivanova.

But if we'd seen Ivanova (or Takashima for that matter) actually involved with anything shady, in fact if there HAD been such activity that would have made the whole "Talia is really the mole!" supposed "trap door" into a big head-slapper.

All of which makes the whole "there was a sleeper agent the whole time" claim and the deliberate trap doors claims etc, seem a bit far fetched and perhaps even retcon to proclaim JMS's genius when all he really did was bring back Lyta (Patricia Tallman) when Talia (Andrea Thompson) was going to leave.

[–] alpha128 8 years ago

Supposedly Lt Cdr Takashima in "The Gathering" was supposed to be a deep-cover traitor/mole, and when Tamlyn Tomita didn't return for the series, Ivanova took over that role and position. And THEN when Andrea Thompson decided to leave the show, the traitor/mole bit was shifted to her Talia Winters character who could then be discovered and leave. - kerryedavis

Ivanova did not take over the role of traitor/mole. Nor did Talia Winters. That part of the story went to Garibaldi's aide. As JMS explained:

Correct; Garibaldi's aide has *always* been a plant. I seeded him in from the beginning, specifically for that purpose. It was the aide who got Sinclair out of his quarters in "Sky," was the liaison who got Benson on line (also in security, you'll remember), and helped dispose of the body. If you watch his reaction in "Sky," he's the one who brings info to Garibaldi looking to clear Benson; and when Garibaldi sees through it, you can see his aide move off looking very worried.

Originally, it was Laurel Takashima who would have betrayed those around her, as this character did. When Laurel was transferred, I had a choice: keep that arc for her replacement (Ivanova), or give this part of it to someone else. Now, knowing how the folks here on the nets and elsewhere think, and knowing that they knew about the Laurel- possible-traitor thread, I figured that everyone would assume that Ivanova would get that part. (And, sure enough, a lot of people did.) This became a wonderfully convenient blind behind which to build the *real* plant.

And thus far, *nobody's* seen it coming. He was right there in clear view, we used him many times (also in "By Any Means Necessary," for instance), and nobody ever paid him the slightest attention.

It is, in a way, the classic magician's trick of misdirection: you try to get everyone to look at your hand so they won't look at the huge elephant being wheeled up onto the stage in plain sight.

No, the shooting of Garibaldi was always a very strong part of the story for the end of first season; that line goes all the way back to the pilot, and Laurel Takashima.

No, after the thread with Laurel was revealed, lots of people *assumed* that that thread had been passed along to Ivanova. It had never in fact been intended for her, but when it was broached, I simply didn't reply, on the theory that if I said it *wasn't* her, it'd narrow it down to who it *was*.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/022.html#JS

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

I've heard and read it both ways, as being claimed by JMS. And Garibaldi's aide being the plant "all along" doesn't fit with Talia being exposed in season 2 when Andrea Thompson left the show.

As much as I like the show and believe it actually turned out BETTER than JMS had originally planned due to circumstances he DIDN'T plan for, "Planned in advance trap doors" that don't actually work the way they were "planned in advance," don't really advance the claims of JMS strategic brilliance.

[–] alpha128 8 years ago

I've heard and read it both ways, as being claimed by JMS. And Garibaldi's aide being the plant "all along" doesn't fit with Talia being exposed in season 2 when Andrea Thompson left the show. - kerryedavis

The original plan was for Laurel to shoot Garibaldi in the back in "Chrysalis". That went to Jack http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_%28aide%29.

The original plan for Talia was to have her "evil twin" alternate personality take over. Then Talia's original personality would be restored using the recording Kosh took during "Deathwalker". The restoration of Talia's "backup" was dropped when Andrea Thompson decided to leave the series.

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

The original plan was for Laurel to shoot Garibaldi in the back in "Chrysalis". That went to Jack http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_%28aide%29.

The original plan for Talia was to have her "evil twin" alternate personality take over. Then Talia's original personality would be restored using the recording Kosh took during "Deathwalker". The restoration of Talia's "backup" was dropped when Andrea Thompson decided to leave the series.

But doesn't that make both Laurel (and then Jack, who would have been assigned that position before they knew Andrea was going to leave) and Talia into "the mole?" We never saw Talia's "evil twin" actually do anything, until hey presto! She's a mole too! Right when Andrea was leaving the show. That's some great advance planning there, JMS!

But in some ways that still makes more sense than a lot of other things I've read, including what JMS seems to be claiming as proof of his great advance planning, but he's claiming that AFTER the fact.

Still though, if Laurel/Jack isn't shown actually doing anything underhanded up until she/he just up and shoots Garibaldi, that's not much of a "mole," and at that point as I wrote just before, they might as well have pulled a name out of a hat to decide who shoots Garibaldi and then instantly becomes "The Mole" that there was NO EVIDENCE EXISTED before RIGHT THEN.

[–] alpha128 8 years ago

Still though, if Laurel/Jack isn't shown actually doing anything underhanded up until she/he just up and shoots Garibaldi, that's not much of a "mole". - kerryedavis

Laurel was doing something underhanded in "The Gathering", because her security access was used by the assassin:

When the assassin scans his hand at Varner's door, words are visible on the screen. If you have a lucid pause function on your VCR, you too will be able to read what they say - "Laurel Takashima Cleared".
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/000.html#NO

Likewise Jack was doing something underhanded in "And the Sky Full of Stars". Although we don't see it was him, clearly the Knights were being helped by an high level inside man to get Sinclair out of his quarters and dispose of Benson's body:

As for how he got the body there...there is an answer, and a reason, and if you look at this episode again after the season is over, even the nitpickers who brought it up will be able to figure it out. I didn't address it in the issue because I didn't think anyone would make a federal case out of this, and for other reasons that will in time become apparent. Several other nits picked at this episode will *also* be clarified by season's end. It's not easy to sit quietly, knowing the answer, and being unable to tell it, but that's simply what I have to do for the time being. - JMS

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/008.html#JS

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

Neither of those examples seemed to actually require the help of a "mole." A "mole" isn't just an "enemy agent" or something, a "mole" is one of your own people who is actually working for the other side. Everything that happened could easily have been done by OTHER than a true "mole."

Laurel's ID could have been cracked or copied or something by G'Kar or one of his people, or a Minbari who was helping the agent who came aboard and used the changeling net. With the additional benefit of being able to create distraction and some useful chaos by putting UNDESERVED suspicion on her - for example, since she would have been able to prove by tracking her "link" that she wasn't actually there to open the door - although that never arose since she didn't come in for the series.

And if, as you write, we DON'T actually SEE Jack helping the "bad guys" in "And the Sky Full of Stars" (you made a typo in the title, by the way), simply assuming that it must have BEEN him, is an unjustified leap of... faith, perhaps, on your part. A leap that I don't take, because there's just no need or reason for it. Lots of other people could have done that, which COULD HAVE been a "mole" but not necessarily, and in any case it didn't necessarily need to be Jack (or originally, Laurel). It would be a different story if Jack had been unaccountably missing from meetings or something, along the way. But the way it finally worked out, basically ANYONE could have shot Garibaldi and become "the mole" whenever it was convenient.

Oh, and the idea that Benson's body would "stick" to the station due to its "gravity" was nonsense too.

[–] alpha128 8 years ago

Laurel's ID could have been cracked or copied or something by G'Kar or one of his people, or a Minbari who was helping the agent who came aboard and used the changeling net. - kerryedavis

Only if B5 security was unbelievably lax!

And if, as you write, we DON'T actually SEE Jack helping the "bad guys" in "And the Sky Full of Stars" (you made a typo in the title, by the way), simply assuming that it must have BEEN him, is an unjustified leap of... faith, perhaps, on your part. - kerryedavis

It's not a leap of faith when JMS said the mystery in "And the Sky Full of Stars" (fixed the typo in my previous post too) would be solved by the end of the season, and then Jack is revealed to be a traitor.

I agree with you however, it would have been nice to put in some additional Jack scenes, either in "Sky", or later episodes, prior to "Chrysalis". That way his reveal as a traitor would have had more impact. The way it plays now is: here's a security guy, here he is again, and here he is again and this time he's a MAJOR CHARACTER and a TRAITOR! I think that, prior to "Chrysalis", Lou Welch had more screen time than Jack in the first season.

[–] jakeconhale 8 years ago

The actor also appeared as "Tragedy", I recall, in Eyes, but considering all you could see of him was his hair, that likely wasn't meant to be suggestive.

I've also heard that the ease with which he was able to receive Bester's telepathic messages was meant to suggest a familiarity with receiving such, but the only other person we saw it with was Sinclair. There was no indication about how "easily" he was hearing them.

(which, on a re-watch did strike me as being a bit odd, him being there at all, you have the whole Ironheart incident and all the security implications, but Jack is only there for the arrival scene, there's nothing about him working with Garibaldi about searching for Ironheart or reporting about the isolated section, or anything else. I'm fairly certain that when Bester scanned those two security officers near the end, neither of them were Jack. One of them spoke to Bester, so unless it was a production issue, it wasn't about actor pay...granted Garibaldi's aide would be more likely to be coordinating the effort, but still seems like you could have consolidated the actors to one person, unless it was intentional)

EDIT: He did also appear in By Any Means Necessary, which I noticed on my last re-watch and thought a nice touch of continuity, even though he's only briefly there when attempting to arrest the dockworkers. A thought occurred to me: just how did Zento find out about the dockworker's official strike declaration before Sinclair (at 0536, no less)?...was it Jack?

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

He did also appear in By Any Means Necessary, which I noticed on my last re-watch and thought a nice touch of continuity, even though he's only briefly there when attempting to arrest the dockworkers. A thought occurred to me: just how did Zento find out about the dockworker's official strike declaration before Sinclair (at 0536, no less)?...was it Jack?

It could just as easily have been a worker at the bar, hearing the dock-workers talking and then trying to curry some favor or get a little money for providing information to EarthGov. It also goes along with my argument that there wasn't really any evidence for an actual traitor until he happened to appear.

And perhaps it was actually Lou Welch that was going to be the traitor, until he turned out to be more popular with the audience. That kind of thing has happened before, and since, and in other shows too. But it's also more evidence that JMS wasn't really as prescient etc as he later/now seems to like to claim.

[–] jakeconhale 8 years ago

And perhaps it was actually Lou Welch that was going to be the traitor, until he turned out to be more popular with the audience.

Your basis for that? I can virtually guarantee however little evidence there is against Jack, it's more than that against Lou.

As for the popularity aspect, I find that amusing. Refa's actor was wondering why his character was being killed off, asking "Did I not do a good job?" JMS' response was that he HAD done a good job, as if he hadn't the audience wouldn't care as much about Refa's death. In this case, if Lou was popular and the mole, that'd only help the eventual reversal, make it more shocking.

EDIT: also, Jack's first aired appearance in Mind War, which was both produced and aired before Survivors, Lou's first episode.

The very next episode produced was Chrysalis. Granted, that was for special effects purposes and they likely could have reshot the three relevant scenes related to the mole (docking bay, shooting, med bay) but the three mole episodes were all made before the half way point in the shooting schedule.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

Your basis for that? I can virtually guarantee however little evidence there is against Jack, it's more than that against Lou.

That's exactly my point. There's really NO evidence against EITHER of them, or against anyone else really as being a real "traitor," until they have someone just pop up and shoot Garibaldi in the back.

But Welch WAS seen a lot more often, so at least he would be a more familiar face, and shock people who think "But he seemed so NICE!" It would have been the same if they'd inexplicably made Ivanova the traitor.

[–] jakeconhale 8 years ago

Welch wasn't seen "more often", at least not until after the mole plot line was resolved.
In season 1, Welch is seen in three episodes - Survivors, Eyes, and The Quality of Mercy
In season 1, Jack is seen in four episodes - Mind War, And the Sky Full of Stars, By Any Means Necessary, and Chrysalis.

As you wish, it works for me through the Chekhov's Gun mechanism (or should I say Bester's gun?)

End result: a mole in the security ranks working for Psi Corp. This needs to be foreshadowed.

As such, we see him at one point specifically interacting with Psi Corp agents (Bester and Kelsey) and he is present in an episode with massive security breaches. In the latter, he admits to returning a known security risk (Benson) to duty. Benson was shown providing the power core for the Knights but was unaware of Sinclair's presence - meaning he didn't provide them access to Sinclair's quarters. A few things jump out:
- How did the Knights know about Benson having issues they could exploit?
- How did the Knights access Sinclair's quarters without Benson's assistance? They'd need codes and knowledge of station patrols and security cameras and whatnot.
- How did the Knights get Benson's body to an airlock without being seen and without a record of the airlock being cycled?
- Jack returning Benson to duty sets Benson up as being a fall guy - someone who could be blamed for various security breaches.

Jack was present in the episodes. That makes him more acceptable for the mole position as he's at least present and not a character invented later - that gives him opportunity. He's Garibaldi's right-hand man, meaning he has high level access to the entire security system, which gives him means. The final leg of the evidence triangle - motive, is kept a secret to leave the audience in initial suspense. Granted, it's never explicitly stated what that motive was, but I think it's fairly straightforward to suss out.

Now do I think it's perfect? No - the Psi Corp association could have been hinted at more intensely, but it works for me better than the "Remember The New Guy" plot device. If it doesn't work for you, so be it.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

As for the popularity aspect, I find that amusing. Refa's actor was wondering why his character was being killed off, asking "Did I not do a good job?" JMS' response was that he HAD done a good job, as if he hadn't the audience wouldn't care as much about Refa's death. In this case, if Lou was popular and the mole, that'd only help the eventual reversal, make it more shocking.

Which is why it arguably would have been BETTER to make someone like Welch - or Ivanova for that matter - be the traitor instead of someone who's only just shown their FACE a couple times, let alone be seen or even seriously suspected (by the audience, at least) of actually doing anything untoward.

The evidence that's given doesn't really indicate the presence of a traitor at all, as I've indicated before. The rest seems to be ex post facto pulling-a-rabbit-from-a-hat on JMS's part. He can have Jack suddenly shoot Garibaldi in the back and then he (JMS) looks at us like we're all dummies "What, you didn't see that coming?" I say no, and neither did HE, at least not in the deliberate, planned way he wants us to believe he had in mind all along. Figuring "If I get into a corner I can just make someone be a traitor" does not strike me as all that great.

- How did the Knights know about Benson having issues they could exploit?

Maybe the same way Sinclair and Garibaldi had their suspicions? People at the casino talk.

- How did the Knights access Sinclair's quarters without Benson's assistance? They'd need codes and knowledge of station patrols and security cameras and whatnot.

There's ample reason to suspect Londo and G'Kar and maybe others had broken the codes in advance in case they needed something, for example. And cameras are mentioned sometimes when it's convenient - such as when Garibaldi is on the run from Presidential Security - but they can't be ubiquitous. It seems pretty obvious that they didn't have cameras absolutely everywhere, or 90%+ of the bad things that happened on the station, couldn't have. Why didn't they see the Drazi taking Ivanova to their quarters during their "civil war" thing?

- How did the Knights get Benson's body to an airlock without being seen and without a record of the airlock being cycled?

There are a variety of possible explanations for this, including maybe just bribing a station worker who was going outside, to not mention the odd "package" that went out with him. That part of it is less important though, since in a real situation like that, the body would never have been recovered unless they somehow figured out which direction to go and went looking. The idea that it would "stick" to the SPINNING station due to its "gravity" is ridiculous.

- Jack returning Benson to duty sets Benson up as being a fall guy - someone who could be blamed for various security breaches.

That doesn't seem any different in logic than Garibaldi's objection to Sheridan holding Morden without real cause. They - Sinclair and Garibaldi both, as I recall - admitted that they had no real proof (yet) of misconduct against Benson, so returning him to duty was actually the right thing to do. Garibaldi would have been within his rights to object to Sinclair refusing to do so, if that had been the case.

This is actually one of the few cases I can see that argues in favor of the original idea of a TEN-YEAR arc for the show. That would have allowed more time for a traitor situation to be developed, etc.

[–] !!!deleted!!! (19664510) 8 years ago

The basic premise of your post is incorrect. Ivanova was never going to be the mole.

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

I can't really rely on post hoc claims including even by JMS. And it's clear that whatever advance "mole" plans there might have been, could not reasonably be used for both Garibaldi's aide AND Talia Winters. What's next, claim that Katherine Sakai was ANOTHER "mole" because she didn't come back either? Heck, Sinclair could have been a "mole" too if he weren't eventually still going to become Valen.

It's the same with Garibaldi's aide, too. Can anyone point to anything he was involved with before actually shooting Garibaldi, that shows US he was the one? Not that the other characters would have suspected him, but even for US in the audience to have suspected him? At that point they could have pulled anyone's name out of a hat, including Zach or even Ivanova. Or Dr Franklin for that matter. Or Talia could have been "exposed" then, except Andrea Thompson didn't want to leave yet.

Are you seeing what I mean there?

There was no reason FOR Garibaldi's aide being a mole, as there had been no apparent actions on the part of ANY "mole" for him to have been responsible for. It was just, "hey, I'm the mole!" Which basically lasted all of 2 episodes. And that doesn't strike me as being any kind of great advance planning on JMS's part.

[–] Theoden_of_ODU 8 years ago

I think the mistake here is thinking that they were playing the same "mole" role that eventually made it on screen. Perhaps once Tamlyn Tomita passed on the role, JMS split up her character and passed different aspects of it to different characters.

-Garibaldi's aide takes on whatever Takashima's role was going to be with the the assassination of the Earth Alliance President and shotting Garibaldi but is a willing participant, not because he has a second personality.

-Talia takes on the "Control" personality aspect of the role as originally planned. However, I think this trap door was only used because she wanted to leave the show. There's no real indication of a mole until "Divided Loyalties," her final episode. I'm not totally sold on the mental recording from early on in the series being used for the same purpose as to return her to her original personality, though that's certainly plausable.

I'll try to keep with The Gathering trap doors here in this particular post. Here's a few more:

-Talia clearly takes on Lyta's original role in the series. Talia isn't "touched by a Vorlon" but gains powers from Jason Ironheart. Assuming that Andrea Thompson hadn't left the show, she would have probably grown the same way that Lyta's character did - gotten closer to Kosh/Vorlons, etc.

-Catherine Sakai took over for Carolyn Sykes (both being "CS"). All three of them were deep space planetary explorers of some kind or another. I'm going on a limb here and assuming that she would have eventually taken on the Anna Sheridan role, and returned from Shadow space, "changed." If not, she would have suffered at the hands of the Shadows somehow.

-Dr. Benjamin Kyle's role is pretty much shifted completely to Dr. Stephen Franklin, down to the stim useage. I wonder how seeing a Vorlon might have played out in his role since Franklin doesn't have an equivalent, though I suppose if Kyle had a similar development where Kosh comes to him in a vision while he is dying like in "Shadow Dancing."

-Already mentioned above, but Takashima's earlier Mars relationship with Babylon 5's commanding officer is brought back when Sheridan comes aboard. That may be unintentional, if only because having previous relationships between established characters and new ones can help smooth the transition.

No, not the mind probe!

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

Talia takes on the "Control" personality aspect of the role as originally planned. However, I think this trap door was only used because she wanted to leave the show. There's no real indication of a mole until "Divided Loyalties," her final episode. I'm not totally sold on the mental recording from early on in the series being used for the same purpose as to return her to her original personality, though that's certainly plausable.

There are alternate explanations for this as well, such as that - before Lyta came back - the Vorlons were looking for someone who would have the role Lyta wound up having, and the mental-recording thing was a screening test to see if she was a suitable candidate. (And maybe from that recording, you could retcon that the Vorlons discovered the buried personality and therefore wouldn't have used Talia as their agent. But they didn't reveal it to others because it was "none of their business" or something.)

As you say, though, "There's no real indication of a mole until "Divided Loyalties," her final episode." Which was kind of my point as well. Having someone suddenly become a mole out of thin air, because you need a "Trap Door," doesn't qualify in my mind as good advance planning. Yes it worked out well for JMS, and for the audience as well. But I can't give him a lot of credit for it as being genius creativity or something.

[–] jakeconhale 8 years ago

Well, I have to argue with you on the mole aspect - "A Spider in the Web" puts some agent on Babylon 5, one independent of the Abel Horn cyborg, as "Control" was able to report in after Horn was destroyed. One that would have to be fairly high up if able to speculate on whether or not the Bureau had been exposed. Jack had already been shipped out, so it would have to be someone different.

I am curious - one of the modern trends of mystery fiction is that you can't spend 90% of the time investigating one lead and then find the true lead with no foreshadowing. Conan Doyle could get away with it, modern productions can't, and JMS' work on Murder She Wrote would have reinforced that. Thus, we see Jack in episodes with odd things happening, and we see a Psi Corp officer with Bester's build visit Garibaldi during his indoctrination sessions.

So... who would have been "Control" in A Spider in the Web if not Talia? One name immediately springs to mind - Zack Allan, introduced that episode, which I suppose could make sense if they needed a reason to get rid of Jeff Conaway if his drug issues resurfaced. "Yeah, I'm Control, and I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling Earthforce officers!" Issue is that he may or not have been particularly high in the command chain, if he was just an entry level guard, how would he know the goings-on with the higher ups?

Could be Garibaldi, I suppose, considering how "helpful" he was when scanning for the element and the glaring transgression of NOT clearing Carter's quarters before sending Talia inside. Wouldn't be Sheridan - physically stopped the operation. Ivanova or Corwin, perhaps? Ivanova does have that little conversation about hating telepaths, which could be seen as an attempt to hide her duplicitous nature. Course, we see Horn getting instructions to deal with Winters before Sheridan briefs Ivanova about there being a murder/eyewitness.

Which leaves only a few groups of people who would know she was alive - Sheridan, Garibaldi and security personnel, and whichever Medlab personnel were present to treat Winters and simply see she was present.

EDIT: Couldn't be Garibaldi, Sheridan expressed a knowledge of various black projects, particularly about Project Lazarus. Control would have reported that if aware.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

I'm not so sure that the final report had to be made by someone who had actually been present on the station at the time. They might have been reporting information obtained from others, perhaps including ambassadors such as Londo or G'kar who might have been filled in on events due to their positions. Or even if it had been someone on the station, it could have been someone who arrived there along with Horn as a backup/observer, keeping out of the picture so as not to be suspected of anything - unlike Horn who was actually doing the attacking/killing - and then left again immediately after.

[–] jakeconhale 8 years ago

Filled in on events? Why on Earth would Sheridan involve the alien ambassadors in an internal Earth affair without proof? All Sheridan et al would have is rumor and suspicion, which would only weaken Earth's position politically. What help could the Alien Ambassadors provide about this affair that would justify "need to know"?

Similarly, Sheridan would want to keep this information to as few people as possible, as "loose lips sink ships". The more who know, the greater risk of a leak.

I subscribe to the idea that Chekhov's Gun would require the actual mole to be physically present in the episode, in some capacity, if for no other reason than to show that person was on the station at the time of the event, as such it would have to be someone onscreen.

Jake Meridius Conhale, at your service!
"Old Man" of the BSG (RDM) boards.

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

The ambassadors wouldn't need all the details, but they might have been told about the meeting that was planned and that there was only one survivor. Or they might have gotten the information from their various spies/informants. Main point being, it didn't require a mole as part of the station personnel at that point either. And isn't that alien mantis creature supposed to know everything that goes on anyway?

[–] action_on_deck 8 years ago

I'm not sure how planned out the trap doors were. It may have been as simple as a vague idea of who to shift plots to.

Besides the Takashima to Ivanova/Jack/Talia trap door, we have others

A lot of Sinclairs arc went to Sheridan, with Sinclair keeping the Valen storyline, and the rest of it to Sheridan.

Franklin pretty much took all of Dr. Kylie's planned arc.

Some of the Katherine Sakai elements went to Anna Sheridan, but some of it was changed a bit.

Talia was at first the trap door for Leeta. But then Leeta became Talia's trap door.

Ivanova's season 5 trap door was split between Lochley (who became captain) and Leeta (who picked up the whole Byron plot). This is why Byron was largely (at least in appearance) a clone of Marcus.

The craziest one in here was Leeta. Talia trapdoored for her, who she then later trapdoored for, later herself trapdooring for Ivanova.

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

But it's possible that just means that shifting characteristics from one character to another wasn't very difficult in these cases. And it doesn't say much, perhaps nothing at all, about it having all been brilliantly planned in advance.

[–] janmschroeder 8 years ago

Some of the Katherine Sakai elements went to Anna Sheridan, but some of it was changed a bit. ~action_on_deck

That's actually an urban legend. We know what was planned for Sakai because of an outline of the series that JMS wrote between the filming of 'The Gathering' and the first season.

What would have happened to Sakai is that in the second/third season she would have been 'mind raped' by someone/organization unknown leaving her with no memory or Sinclair. The only way to undo that would be to subject her to the same trauma again which he couldn't bring himself to do. The loss of Sakai would then leave Sinclair open to a relationship with Delenn. No mention of Z'ha'dum at all

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -Harlan Ellison

[–] kerryedavis 8 years ago

Sounds like another case of accidentally having a better story.