MovieChat Forums > Unforgiven (1992) Discussion > Is this, at its core, a Marxist film?

Is this, at its core, a Marxist film?

posted 10 years ago by misterbfd
20 replies | jump to latest

I read an interesting theory that "Unforgiven" is a film that is based on Marxist philosophies. Some of the elements that would support that theory are things like the protagonist's name Bill Munny (as in US paper currencies are called "bills" and Munny is, of course, money). Themes that run throughout include the idea that people are equivalent to possessions (the whores are referred to as property), that violation of humans can be made "right" through the exchange of goods (the ponies brought to compensate for the attack on Delilah), that human life can be reduced to monetary value (the $1,000 bounty on the lives of the rowdy cowboys), the discussion of the citizen reaction toward monarchs and duly elected officials, among others.

What do you think? Can you point out any other Marxist themes or philosophies that are present in this film?

[–] daz365 10 years ago

Does whoever came up with this theory know what Marxism is? it doesn't seem so.

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"

[–] Degree7 10 years ago

Maybe you could come up with a compelling counter argument, instead of some useless rhetorical question.

~ There is nothing more pathetic than an aging hipster.

[–] daz365 10 years ago

No I couldn't. Because there is no argument to counter.

Maybe you could have added something to the thread instead of some useless criticism.

See what I did there.

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"

[–] Degree7 10 years ago

Maybe you could first start by explaining why the OP doesn't relate to Marxism, and why you think the examples don't correlate.

Or maybe you're just pretending to be smarter than you really are.

~ There is nothing more pathetic than an aging hipster.

[–] daz365 10 years ago

Thanks for your concern. I really do appreciate it, but I'll post as I as like.

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"

[–] Degree7 10 years ago

Why post if you have nothing of interest to say?

~ There is nothing more pathetic than an aging hipster.

[–] daz365 10 years ago

What part of "but I'll post as I as like" didn't you understand.

Seriously, It's obvious to anyone with any sense, that your sanctimonious goading is not going to elicit a response from me, if you wish to engage anyone in a sensible conversation you need to change your approach.

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"

[–] Degree7 10 years ago

Ok then.

What about the OP's post was incorrect about Marxism? Honestly, I'd like to know, because I don't know much about it.

~ There is nothing more pathetic than an aging hipster.

[–] misterbfd 10 years ago

Here's an analysis of Marxist themes in "Unforgiven" that was written after the author found that the film was being screened as part of a Marxist film festival in Paris.

http://www.jwrinzler.com/unforgiven--analysis.html

Let me know what you think...

[–] strntz 10 years ago

I'm going to be honest here and state that I didn't read the link nor do I intend to. In my opinion, anything can be linked in hindsight if one is willing to suspend at least some logic. Here's an example from a song written by a popular rock composer:

Day is night in New York City.
Smoke, like water, runs inside.
Steel idle trees to pity,
Every living thing that's died.

Sounds a bit like 9/11, no? With the heavy smoke, witnesses described that bright fall morning becoming as dark as night. Smoke and water running inside (skyscrapers?). Steel idle trees (tall buildings growing like trees in the big city?). Etc. (song: Gonna Hitch A Ride, ~T Scholz, Boston)

This song was written 30 years before the attacks on the WTC, and the author admits he has no foreknowledge of future events, and the lyrics have nothing to do with with 9/11. But, in hindsight, it sure seems to fit if one wants to make that argument.

I've read The Manifesto of the Communist Party by Karl Marx (at least some of it plus Cliff notes), and see no connection between a simple story of murder for hire and friendship and socialism.

It is bad to drink Jobus rum. Very bad.

[–] misterbfd 10 years ago

Well, I'd appreciate it if you would read the link and offer your opinion. Yes, things can be "read into" a story, but I found the Marxist argument somewhat compelling.

[–] strntz 10 years ago

Well, I'd appreciate it if you would read the link and offer your opinion.

..sigh. I hate when people ask nicely. Can never turn them down. Give me a day or so to read and comment on it.

It is bad to drink Jobu's rum. Very bad.

[–] jriley555 9 years ago

it is certainly, as you link makes clear, involved with the impact of excessive mercantilism, or unrestrained capitalism, upon humanity.

which does not make it explicitly marxist, however. political moderates would likely share such concerns.

why didnt you post the link in the first place? when you make an assertion such as you have, it would be helpful to grab some supporting materials, dialogue, analysis of your own, to buttress the assertion. i think that is what drew the objection you were getting at the start of the thread.

i had not really thought about how well-developed this theme was in the film - thanks for starting the discussion.

[–] Whoah10115 10 years ago

I wouldn't say so, but maybe some values are integrated...more than likely there are things that can relate.

But good job to the first response being an idiot post!

[–] sfrsez 10 years ago

and junkies relate every song to heroin.

[–] pheters 9 years ago

A lot of movies have some marxist philosophy baked in to them. Titanic for example. Maybe this one too.

[–] musicmaninmass 9 years ago

That's ridiculous. The prostitutes aren't refered to as property. They just do a job. They're free to leave whenever they want. As far as reducing lives to monetary value by using the horses as compensation. The monetary system in the 19 century wasn't as good as it is today. The basis of Marxism is the state owns the means of production. No private property. Skinny owns Greely's saloon, all the store owners own their stores. If the prostitutes were property they wouldn't have been able to save the money to pay for the hits

[–] fillshertease 9 years ago

It's not ridiculous actually. The prostitutes ARE referred to as property and they aren't free to leave because Greely has contracts. He's not saying that the movie shows a Marxist society, he's saying the movie shows the negative sides of capitalism which Marxism discusses.

[–] criztu 9 years ago

some of Marx' concepts about capitalism are:

1. Labor and the laborer are transformed into commodities in capitalism. Relations between individuals are understood as relations between commodities
eg. the cut up whore is "damaged goods", worth 7 horses.
eg. Kid and Munny and Ned are brought together only by the prospect of making money - mercantile relations. They do not develop friendships - human relations.
Though, Munny avenges Ned's death. He acts humane exactly when he reverted to his old self (before capitalism).
This is called Conservative or Bourgeoise Socialism by Karl Marx, in Communist Manifesto chapter 3.2.
Clint Eastwood is thus a Bourgeoise addressing the obvious problems of the Capitalist system, but not by going towards Socialism and Communism, but by trying to solve them within the Capitalist system.

Clint Eastwood is neither a Socialist nor Communist, but a lobotomized Bourgeoise who thinks that the inherent problems of Capitalism can be fixed, if we just pray to God and accept Jesus in our hearts....

2. The state is a creation of the bourgeoise, through which he protects his business.
eg. the brothel owner uses Little Bill to get the horses in exchange for his damaged whore

3. Alienation from the self, you are no longer human, but a calculus machine. Survival becomes impossible in the absence of money.
eg. William Munny kills to get the money to ensure the survival of his kids.
eg. Religion - a Feudal institution, has no power over Bill Munny. His religious wife is dead - Feudalism is dead.

[–] mikekrit62 8 years ago

It's actually quite easy to take ANY movie, book, story and posit whatever "theme" you'd like to find if you are willing to twist things around enough.