but why? - Un coeur en hiver (1993) Discussion

[–] BlueLeaves 20 years ago

Stephane was like a robot. His actions reflected what he thought society expected of him but in the end his cold and unemotional personality was unable to love.

"If a king can't sing, it ain't worth being king."

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[–] UV 20 years ago

no, I think Stephane loved Camille and he WAS able to love but he didn't realize it soon enough. we see it more clearly because we stand outside.

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[–] neugier 20 years ago

i agree. he loved her, but just didnt "know" soon enough.
still its an open end, so i had different guesses from friends how its continuing.
It reflects a little bit on previous personal experiences, i believe ;)

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[–] Tridentmovies 20 years ago

Stephane didn't 'do' anything to Camille and Maxime because he is uncapable of 'doing' anything.

Stephane is an emotionally reclused man who feels everything that any man feels, but simply lacks the capability -the courage, the strenght, the willpower- , to show what he feels. He is comfortable with his situation and showing his emotions is too much of a risk for a man who is so lacking in true self esteem.

Also Stephane did not find out 'too late' that he loved Camille, he knew from the start, but again, he didn't dare take the chance of getting hurt by showing his emotions and opted to turn away Camille.
Showing interest in superficial ways, as Stephane did in the beginning, is easy for him, but once he has manouvred himself into the position where superficial things to show or say aren't enough, he hits an emotional threshhold he just can't pass, after which the relationship becomes strained and frustrating, and while Camille tries to drag him across that threshhold, Stephane resists by shunning her and retreating.

The last scene in the movie (in the cafe) is as good an emotional showing from Stephane as he was ever likely to give, which convinced Camille that Stephane really did care for her, but also reaffirmed that he would never really come out of his shell to the point where she could deal with him.

For a similar kind of relationship between a man and a woman, see "The Remains of the Day" with Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson.

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[–] trpdean 19 years ago

I really had a different take on this movie. I'm sure it's not what the director intended (judging by the title anyway) but my own reaction was of a normal man (Auteuil) who is simply not drawn to a woman who seduced another (his best friend) from his family.

Why must we assume that simply because Auteil does not fall for Beart that there is therefore something wrong with him?

The main thing that struck me was the ugliness of Beart's character - her indifference to another's marriage and children - and having seduced him, her desire to get his best friend - and her rage when she fails to seduce him as well.

Imagine the genders were switched - a man moves in with a married woman who leaves her husband and children for him. The man then quickly falls for his new lover's best female friend - who doesn't reciprocate his desire - so the man becomes enraged, slaps her and creates a scene in a restaurant - and blames her for failing to fall for him.

Would we say there was something wrong with the best friend for failing to fall for the man living with her best friend?

Or would we instead say that the man's character was the ugly one (in the hypothetical)? And that the best friend's friendship with her friend - and unwillingness to continue to play another round with the bed-hopping man is testament to her good sense, her morality, her sense of propriety?

I think the latter - and (putting the genders back in accordance with the movie) found myself profoundly disliking the Beart character. And I think the director failed to get me to go where he wanted - (again, judging by the title).

This is a movie that censures a man whose heart is cold - but causes the viewer to despise a woman who refuses to believe she can't have whomever she wants when she wants him.

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[–] Greenteeth 19 years ago

I agree that Beart's character came out looking a little soiled. This was most notable when she smeared the lipstick on her mouth and demanded that Stephane have sex with her.

On the other hand, if Stephane simply wasn't interested, there would have been ways to get this across before Beart's character made a fool of herself and embarrassed Stephane's business partner and friend. At times I felt Stephane was simply insane, but then I would think that this was a highly skilled technician/craftsman who was capable of listening to musicians talk about the way they wanted their instruments to sound. In the end, I was troubled by the way things worked out.

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[–] bertdockx 14 years ago

so you despise her for dragging a man away from his family? how come that maxim himself is not responsible for leaving his family? and before turning her down, stephane shows as much interest in her as the other way around; they seem naturally drawn to eachother. also: falling in love with other people than your partner isn't a crime, and it's very common.

why do you judge her like that? they are believable characters, and therefore i like them, no matter what their actions. trying to understand what goes on inside them, why they do what they do, that's what's interesting, not judging them. (and what makes the movie great, is that there are no easy explanations to find.)

anyway, i still think your reversal of genders is interesting, since i agree that it would elicit other reactions from the viewer. a woman slapping a man vs. a man slapping a woman...

also, i agree that it's possible to think of stephane just not really falling for her. allthough he did seem to seduce her a bit... should i despise him now?

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[–] GuyOnTheLeft 11 years ago

I don't see it this way, but I respect your ability to elucidate a plausible alternate take on the film.

--------
See a list of my favourite films here: http://www.flickchart.com/slackerinc

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[–] SlackerInc (1064) 15 days ago

You build an interesting case there, but as you seem to understand, it's not really what the filmmaker intended to convey.

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[–] soloquest2002 18 years ago

I completely agree with yourposts(Tridentmovies).

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[–] brite_n_bubbly 17 years ago

Well said!

And your comparison to "The Remains of the Day" is spot-on :)

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[–] Ruby_Bale_Desplat 14 years ago

Very well said Trident. That's my interpretation too.

~Proud Balehead~

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[–] colbec 13 years ago

If, indeed, Stephane has a recognized personality disorder, would it be reasonable to assume that Camille also has some sort of disorder, or does one consider that her behaviour is normal and a standard to judge others by?

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[–] ibbi 11 years ago

^I think this is putting it pretty well.

___
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiYF7pUPuFs

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[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Tridentmovies 19 years ago

Why did Stephane act the way he did?

The answer is obvious to people who have some knowlegde of psychology.
I'm saying this because i saw the film years ago, and recently i was doing some research on psychology, and the similarities were stunning.

The answer is:
Stephane is suffering from what is called "Schizoid Personality Disorder".

For those wanting to know the symptoms of this psychological problem, google for the above phrase : Schizoid Personality Disorder.

But to put it simplistically and shortly: Schizoids are emotional and social hermits (and sometimes actually hermits). They lack the ability to express anything but the most basic emotions (or better, lack of emotions), and perceive any kind of intimacy as a threat on the boundaries they deem necessary to function at all.

In reality, however, they still need the things everybody needs, and most likely Stephane really did love the woman. But his psycholical need for emotional reclusivess and distance - as with all schizoids - is simply to strong to ever allow anybody bridging the gap and "intrude" on his space.

It's as if there is a real, psychological and emotional wall between the Schizoid and every other person.
And as another person said in one of the other threads, if necessary the schizoid will hurt those who come near him, even while he loves them at the same time.

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[–] trpdean 19 years ago

Sorry, Trident, the movie shows me none of that. Stephane doesn't care for her -she is enraged, she can't believe it, she insists he MUST care for her. He is finally forced to physically push her away.

He's a normal guy. She has a real problem - she always wants what she can't have - married men with children - and once she has him, she wants the guy's best friend.

When he says no - repeatedly - she's driven insane. She's pathetic.

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[–] Tridentmovies 19 years ago

You're only half right.

If Stephane was normal the movie wouldn't have been about him, but about the woman.

I suggest you watch the movie again, because it seems you missed a lot.

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[–] Greenteeth 19 years ago

Stephane is not normal.

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[–] gm0x45 19 years ago

I think I believe what Trident says. There are some clues in the movie, and earlier in the tread, somebody mentions that Stephane is a robot. Stephane is very gifted to repair violins, kind of boring job but doing it very well and perfectly.This skills also appears in people having the symptom mentioned, in other areas (computer,etc...). And we can see him repairing a mechanical puppet, robot, an image of himself, something cold and automatic. Beart has been hurt and burnt, she's the heart, Auteuil is the winter.

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[–] Greenteeth 19 years ago

Yes...Stephane can shut down his heart; Camille cannot.

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[–] 2jdv 18 years ago

I had a completely different take on the film. Stephan did love Camille, and Maxim, but Maxim was his one great friend. He backed out because he knew how much it would hurt Maxim if he "took" Camille. His coldness is a pretense, but he is used to seeming cold. He sacrifices his desire for Camille to protect Maxim; I think it's that simple. At the end of the film, when all the dust has settled, I think the director makes that clear.

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[–] Greenteeth 18 years ago

That's an interesting view. My only reason to question it would be to ask that if Stephane was capable of love, then why was the movie given its peculiar title? Whose heart was cold?

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[–] 2jdv 18 years ago

I think the title is what throws people. I view it as irony (something the French are fond of) or, alternatively, since he presents himself as detached, since he uses that as his excuse for rejecting Camille, the director goes along with that pose as the theme. But when he says "I used to think the only person I loved was Maxime" I think it gives the game away. He is telling her not only that he lied when he said he wasn't Maxime's friend, but that he loves her too. She turns away in sadness and understanding, and her kiss upon leaving is sincere. Maxime also understands, and his last look over the roof of the car is one of, I think, gratitude and love. (As a final note, in French that title could also be interpreted as "A Heart in Hibernation.")

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[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] 2jdv 18 years ago

You make some excellent points, Placemat, on a movie that I think is often hugely misunderstood. His expressions and sensation of love are different, and hence, how much he is misunderstood. Your comments got me to thinking about something else, and that is that his love seems out of joint with society simply because he found his true love so long ago in the violin that all his love flows from that source, and while it is no less love, it seems dispassionate, for his heart has been given over to that instrument. You are right, he shows his tenderness and love in many ways, not least in that he is willing to forego his love for Camille in order not to hurt Maxime. Yes, theirs is a superficial love, at least for now, but Stephane will not destroy it for his own sake. I don't think his love is misplaced, merely that his profound love of the violin itself allows him a kind of freedom that few people have.

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[–] SlackerInc (1064) 15 days ago

It's not Maxime that was the only person he ever loved, but his former violin teacher whose euthanasia Stephane performed.

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[–] Tridentmovies 18 years ago

Stephane loved Camille, but didn't care about Maxime as much as both Maxime and Camille thought.

As he told Camille, he didn't even consider Maxime his friend, merely a collegue with whom he had a good arrangement.

Not only would Stephane be incapable anyway of calling Maxime a "friend" (because that would be an emotionally tricky statement, friendship implies certain responsibilities toward people), but Maxime for the large part left him cold when push came to shove.

Schizoids at some point reach a point, especially directly after an emotional crisis, where they are more open and honest about how they really feel (because they momentarily think they have nothing to lose anyway), but that point passes soon enough

In the movie that point was reached directly after the death of Stephane's mentor, when he was in the cafe with another person he probably truly loved (Camille).
At that moment she caught him when he was more open than he would normally be, but it wouldn't last long.

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[–] ykkim 17 years ago

you're only half right.

Stephane takes Maxine as a business partner, not a friend such as Helene; his friendship with Helene seems good enough to save him from schizoid personality disorder.

Camille could not fathom either relationship of Stephane (Maxine, Helene); she thought she's in love. a pity.

I suggest you watch the movie again, because it seems you missed a lot.

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[–] lhgroff 17 years ago

For me, the story was the contrast between Maxime and Stephane.

Maxime is charm and passion. Stephane is depth and constancy.

Maxime leaves his family because of his passion for Camille. Stephane is attracted to Camille, but would not risk the life he has constructed and his deeper relationships for a mere passion.

When the mentor asks for death, his wife first calls the charming Maxime. But both must rely on Stephane to do the truly difficult act of love. It is Maxime's portion to comfort the widow.

Maxime's anger must have astonished Stephane. Operating on the superficial level of charm and passion, Maxime doesn't even pause to consider that Stephane might have turned down Camille's offer because of their relationship. Maxime would have tossed Stephane in an instant in his passion for Camille - and, in fact, he does just that. Ironically, not because Stephane attracted Camille's interest (he asks Stephane to see her after he is clearly suspicious of the growing relationship between them), but because Stephane spurned it and humiliated her.

Ultimately, when things have blown over Maxime realizes what he has lost (at the very least in a business sense) and makes his charming and futile gesture at restoring their relationship. Stephane's relationships are not so easily built or mended. And it seems that Stephane's business, which is built on skill and expertise, is performing perfectly well against Maxime's, which is based on charm.

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[–] Tridentmovies 15 years ago

You're wrong.

I happen to know something about the affliction of Stephane.

You obviously don't, otherwise you'd know better and recognize what you're dealing with.

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[–] hermione47 14 years ago

I see you have an issue with adultery, but the film is not actually dealing with it.
It is dealing with emotional barrenness, that's why it's called "En coeur en hiver", I guess the clue is in the title....
After he rejects Camile the first time, Stephane is seen driving to the country house of his friend and the emotion on his face shows quite clearly that he's not indifferent to her.
He's afraid and that's why, when he witnesses the argument between the old couple at the country house, he's convinced he wouldn't be able to cope with the ugliness which is always part and parcel of a love relationship.
Passion is always scary to witness and for a man so out of tune with the movements of his heart it must be terrifying.
Camile is not exactly a nice character either, she's clearly egotistic and somewhat lacking in human kindness, but she's probaby been swept away by the sudden passion that's come to her so unexpectedly.

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[–] SlackerInc (1064) 15 days ago

Good analysis.

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[–] SandsofSamarkand 17 years ago

I thought he might have Aspergers. But yes, he definitely seemed to be psychologically somewhat different from what we consider 'normal'.

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[–] Limeginger 15 years ago

I thought he had Asberger's too -- everything about it fits.

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[–] danaigh 10 years ago

Imagine that you'e surrounded by very intelligent, skilled yet emotional people. But you are limited in scope, your skills are narrow, focused. Stephane was in over his head, and has been all his life. Yes he is a master technician re: stringed instruments, but the emotional aspects of music were beyond him.

Have you ever been with very bright folks and knew you that whatever you said seemed childish and perhaps stupid? It's embarrassing, so you learn to keep your mouth shut. Stephane was bitter about being so lacking and he was childishly trying to score one on Maxime. Stehpane was simply out of his league. No comprendo.

Stephane looked great, seemed intelligent, dressed well and was skilled. At the dinner where he was challenged by others about his refusal to take a stand, all he could do was block and shut down. I've known such people, the verbal gymnastics are too much for them, they aren't deep thinkers.

Smile at Camille and she thinks your devoted to her. How could even a well balanced man deal with such a mercurial woman. Stephane was playing with fire, or fire and dynamite together. At heart Stephane is a Danish farmer mismatched in an emotional madhouse called France.

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[–] reindeer2002 18 years ago

In my opinion, there are two reasons.

1. He had some feeling to his boss. He was not sure if he should abandon it.

2. He loved Camellie. But, she was Maxima's fiance. So, Stephon was not encoureged enough to seize her from him.

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[–] stavros-29 18 years ago

In my opinion the reason is one of the following, or the combination, or all of them:
1 - Low esteem
2 - Unworthy for her
3 - Afraid of being hurt
4 - Likes to be hurt, to punish himself, it is the only feeling that really likes!

The film gives tips on this constantly.

1 -
When they speak in the begging of the movie in the dinner:
"Speaking, one risks sounding stupid" "Not speaking, one may appear intelligent" Maybe he does not understand it, but he have choosen the first one. His low self-esteem drives him not to talk too much.

2 -
He feels that she is too good to look at him. He believes that once she disconvers his true self, she will not like hime any more.
(Lachaume asks him: "Maybe you felt unworthy of her")

4 -
He chooses to give the last shot to Lachaume. Why??

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[–] Sleepless_84 18 years ago

Stephane is Gay

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[–] LordBling 18 years ago

Wow, thank you SO much for contributing! I don't know what we'd have done without you!

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[–] SlackerInc (1064) 15 days ago

Yes, I think this is about right.

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[–] bjacob 17 years ago

After so many years, so many psychology books and so many viewings of A coeur an hiver, I still aren't sure what to think about Stephane. He's very schizoid-like, like another commentator has said, but even the classification of SPD as a personality disorder is controversial, with some experts asserting that it's not a disorder because it doesn't harm the patient nor the society - so it's only a lifestyle, and probably we couldn't simply say that Stephane "is ill".

I disagree with those who judge badly Camille: she's only very young and following her feelings. I don't see Stephane as morally superior to her.

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[–] klobb 17 years ago

Some have mentioned the exchange at the end:

– You loved him.
– The only one I ever did, I thought.

Now, it may very well be that these people are right when they take it to mean that Stephané has now realized that he did in fact love Camille, but my firm belief is that the realization he had was that he did not even love the old man.

Bigot: One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain.

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[–] Bladerunner 17 years ago

No, he loved the old man. She says, "You loved him?" Stephane says, "The only person I did, I've long thought". You don't think you love someone for a long time only to discover you don't, that is absurd. No, Stephane is a person of precision and his words are precise. If he meant he didn't love the old man, he would have said, "For a long time I thought I did", instead he says that he long thought he was the *only person* he loved, but then he realizes he loves Camille.

Remember earlier in the film he says (about he and Maxime playing racketball), "He so loves to win that losing for me becomes a pleasure". He provides Maxime his alibis, willingly and admires his partner.

Stephane is someone who enjoys pleasing others. He repairs broken instruments, builds new ones for those who need them, and so on.

I believe he perceives that Camille is floundering in her playing and her recording and decides to "fix her". Remember that earlier Maxime says that he has (more or less) wooed Camille by telling her how good she is, by comforting her about her playing. He loves her, but he simply doesn't know how to do that, and he is afraid.

"...nothing is left of me, each time I see her..." - Catullus

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[–] SlackerInc (1064) 15 days ago

I think you are mostly right, but they were playing squash.

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[–] dia0369 17 years ago

His exact words were "J'ai longtemps cru que c'était la seule personne que j'aimais", which roughly translated means "For a long time I thought that he has the only one I was loving" (not gramatically correct, I'm sure - english is not my first language - but I couldn't find words which better express the meaning of the phrase).

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[–] laurel21000 17 years ago

I respectfully disagree that Maxime is "charm and passion."

I think Maxime is a schmoozer. He even schmoozed for a living by chatting up and flattering clients.

Maxime also did not hesitate to discard his wife when Camille came along. After all, Maxime functioned in the world of music. And through Maxime's eyes, in that world an accomplished violinist could be viewed as a "trophy" girlfriend. And Maxime viewed as elevated by the association with (winner of) this prize.

Maxime even both proudly and ruefully admitted that he had initially won Camille over by feeding her a line -- a line of flattery.

Additionally, Maxime was not a loyal person. He was not loyal in marriage (nor did he agonize in any way over his disloyalty) and he was not loyal in friendship. For example, he characterized Stephane to Camille as a "genius repairman." I think this was an attempt at a putdown. The operative term in his intentions was repairman, not genius.

So although as portrayed in the film, the character of Maxime considered himself to be superior to Stephane, I think Stephane, even with all of his flaws, was a much more admirable person.

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[–] gfaruk 17 years ago

If you want to read a philosophical evaluation of the film, check this out. You won't regret it:

hxxp://faculty.frostburg.edu/phil/forum/Winter1.htm

In this essay, Jorn K. Bramann discusses the same question (but why?) or as he put it: "Is Stephane's state of mind and way of life the expression of some shortcoming or even pathology, or does his conduct represent a plausible ideal--a way of life for which sound philosophical reasons can be offered?".

He suggests that " Stephane's sexual impulses and energy are alive and well, but they have become “sublimated” into the love of complex aesthetic expressions and the pursuit of artistic excellence...The philosophical conception of this sort of sublimation was formulated most famously in Socrates' (or Plato's) theory of love. " and concludes that "He will maintain his Platonic distance to the world and its affairs, and his masterly work and the quiet contemplation of music will continue to be the center of his existence...His passion will still be directed toward artistic excellence, and whatever feelings for other people may play a role in his life will manifest themselves in measured gestures and silent gazes."

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[–] sarafist 16 years ago

Balzac often wrote of sexual energy deplenishing creative energy, which seems applicable.

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[–] krakhouse 16 years ago

If you want to read a philosophical evaluation of the film, check this out. You won't regret it:

hxxp://faculty.frostburg.edu/phil/forum/Winter1.htm

Very nice link, made me think about the film in different ways.

The way I see it, is that we weren't retreating, we were just attacking in a new direction.

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[–] Frank_Z 16 years ago

Live link to the above-referenced article:

http://faculty.frostburg.edu/phil/forum/Winter1.htm

Worth a look.

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[–] PizzicatoFishCrouch 16 years ago

He was just a weird man.

http://zummer.blogspot.com

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[–] user-25392 16 years ago

It appeared to me that Stephane loved Maxime. I felt this from the first look of jealousy on his face when Maxime first told him about Camille.
Also, at the end when Stephane speaks of the "only person he ever loved" he might have been speaking of Maxime. That would explain it all, yeah?

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[–] tomkara 15 years ago

I second that opinion: Stéphane would be emotionally unable because of his repressed feelings for Maxime.

It seems to me that the main relationship of the movie is the one between Stéphane and Maxime.

In the beginning, Stéphane's narration establishes how fulfilled he is in his life. He has a job and a strong friendship with Maxime. Maxime is married but seems to be spending most of his time with Stéphane. He also entertains a few meaningless liaisons which help creating a complicity between the two characters as Stéphane used to follow him in his escapades or, to the least, would be told all the intimate details.

Camille's arrival is the element that disrupts the relationship between the two men and Stéphane's reaction is there to prove it.
Now I think that Stéphane loves and admires Maxime, but he also shows some jealousy (cf. the restaurant scene between Stéphane and his female friend). Maxime has the charm that Stéphane lacks and he is the one breaking the exclusivity of their daily life. So Stéphane, seeing Camille shows interest in him at the rehearsal, decides to seduce her, maybe hoping things would therefore end faster.

Camille's insistence helps Stéphane to understand his feelings and the friend's death is the stimulus that makes his emotions more reachable.

In the end, Stéphane's line is not about Maxime but about his dead friend. "For a long time I thought he was the only person I loved", he realizes he had feelings for Maxime, and so does Camille when she gets in the car.

---

Now this is just a theory but came to me about halfway through the movie. Plus, it is about a love triangle and it is one of the few issues.
Stéphane could indeed be in love with Camille but I don't think the man who told her "we are colleagues, my interest is his, ect." would back up for his "colleague", specially seeing that Maxime shows next to no ill-feelings towards Stéphane (at least until Stéphane hurts Camille).

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