Thanksgiving seems to have a lot of things unsaid going on.
I just wonder.
I've seen the movie a few times- and am writing this after having not really paid attention, and I'm too lazy to rewind.
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Because he made him Randy.
shareWell if the thanksgiving in this movie is anything to go by Frank is rude, abrasive and uncouth. He gets Randy's occupation and his wife's name constantly wrong and has no problem indicating the reason is because 'it's not important for him to get it right'. I'd say that's plenty reason to dislike him.
Your's sincerely, General Joseph Liebgott
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We may not know the specifics but there's plenty about Franks character we do know about even before he was blind. Randy alludes to the fact that Frank was 'passed over' for promotion and that he juggled hand grenades drunk causing his blindness, so his character in the Army left a lot to be desired. By his own admission he's 'no fúckin good, and never has been' and in his final speech he tells us that his motto was to stand up to people because it made him 'feel important'. His conduct at the dinner table was reprehensible to say the least.
There are some very interesting comments here about Randy's attitude towards him. It may well be Frank gave him a smack before and Randy has some balls because Frank is now blind. But I don't know if there's an argument for one particular incident that 'broke the camels back' so to speak. It could be they just didn't like being around him. He's obviously uncomfortable to be around because you just don't know what he's going to say next or who he's going to offend. I think the fact that he didn't seem to know he was an unwanted ásshole was a cause of great consternation with the family.
Your's sincerely, General Joseph Liebgott
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I think this allusion is presented well in the film. We don't know exactly what was the final straw in a long line of bad behavior by Slade, but there seems to be one. We just see it is a family made quite dysfunctional with the arrival of the black sheep, and not his arrival on the biggest family day of the year nor his handicap are enough to make them forget that his interactions with them have been nothing but miserable, sprinkled with an unforgivable act or two.
A black sheep by the family's standards. Slade is more accomplished than any of them.
I agree - Frank has been an intolerable a-hole to Randy and his family - he wouldn't feel that much animosity without a reason.
shareYes the Thanksgiving scene is uncomfortable and getting through has always been a chore for me. It is one scene that I have to decide if I want to watch or fast forward. Slade is an angry man though he's led a very interesting life as an Army officer reaching the rank of LtCol. I imagined how I would've responded to Slade's behavior if I had first met him in the scene in Slade's granny suite. I may have walked out amidst all the insults. Of course it would become a signature role for Pacino and a break out role for O'Donnell. But the Thanksgiving scene is a difficult one to get through.
shareOh yeah, I think there was lots of bad history. I mean, in addition to everything else, Slade told Randy he wasn't sexually satisfying his wife and suggested he go down on her. And that was at the frickin Thanksgiving dinner table! Imagine what must have gone on in private.
What I found interesting is that Slade just took all of Randy's insults. Didn't attack him until he disrespected Charlie by calling him Chuck repeatedly.
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I get the feeling that Randy didn't like Uncle Frank, with not really anything that Frank did personally to him. It was all what the family said to Randy. So once Randy was old enough to start speaking for himself, he never treated Frank with any kind of respect. So in turn Frank dismissed him, as just another of the family that didn't like him. This arrogant sonofabitch doesn't really know him and disrespects him. So what does Frank do. Frank waits. He waits until Randy thinks he is successful and has a wife and everything seems to be going well and then hits him where it really hurts. Everything Frank said about Gail at the dinner table was true. It was obvious it was true with how Gail responded. He thought he was so much better than Frank because Frank screwed up juggling grenades and caused himself to go blind, but this guy that was so much better couldn't even satisfy his wife sexually.
Also something else to keep in mind is that all these people didn't care Frank, none of them realized he was saying goodbye forever. He had no intentions of surviving the weekend. Its kinda sad. It also really came down to respecting your elders no matter what. Randy didn't understand that. It wasn't to be nice or easy on him because he was blind. It was because he was an elder. And it also isn't very bright to disrespect a retired LtCol, just in general. They know how to kill you. Randy found out real quick when he referred to Charlie as Chuckie. And actually the second time he did it he did it deliberately because he didn't think Frank was gonna do anything.
Well, I don't know but respect is something that Isn't just earned because you happen to be old. It's also through your actions and judging from what little we knew of Frank his behaviour as a human being wasn't exactly the most exemplary. Sure he was a "war hero" but believe it or not some have been known to be the most intolerable, arrogant ignoramus's imaginable! I have a friend who works as a bouncer part time in nightclubs, and he has encountered army soldiers who think they should be given concessions or treated differently because of what they do. That's not to say that they're all like that but in his experience he says quite a lot of them are.
It seemed Randy's personal feelings towards his Uncle might have been pretty much justified. That was before Frank started ripping in to him personally when the nephew started verbally bashing his uncle. I get the feeling Frank was probably very hard on him and quite possibly called him names growing up. Let's be honest, Frank struck me as a man's man who liked sports, liked drinking with guys in bars etc. Randy may have been one of those skinny little boys who wasn't very good at sports and wasn't tough like some of the other guys. While other boys were out kicking a ball, he'd be in his room studying and Frank may have very well tore in to him for that. "You're a sissy!"
But as to why Frank was so rude and abrasive in that scene. I honestly think he wanted to be punished for all the crap that he had put his family through over the years. Look at his face toward the end of that scene when Randy was laying in to him verbally and Frank began to quieten down more. He appeared sad but there was an air of finality as he got what he wanted. He intended to kill himself and and he maybe wanted his family to get the chance to tell him how they felt and Randy was more than happy to oblige! Frank only got upset when his nephew disrespected Charlie because frankly(no pun intended)he felt his young carer did't deserve it. Randy may have been upset with Frank but there was no need for him to take it out on Charlie. Anyway, that's my take on what happened.
I see what you're saying on the last part. He wanted them all to hate him and wish he was gone and then when he was, they would feel like *beep* for it.
But I don't think that Frank was particularly hard on Randy as a child. I never got that feeling. I got the feeling like I said before that he overheard other people in the family say things and he just believed it all. Then when the stuff is brought up, nobody wanted to admit they felt the same way. But there was a time to say that stuff and a time not to. The time not to is very well a time where a guest is present, as in not a family member.
I don't think it was about wanting to be punished. Frank didn't give a *beep* He felt as said right before he left. "I'm no *beep* good. And I never have been." He doesn't even consider himself a war hero. I felt for Frank. Why would I feel for such an *beep* Because like I think his daughter said at the beginning. He is a hard man but by the end of the weekend you two will get along.
She is the only one that was willing to put up with him and that says alot. That is why upon his returning Frank saw things in a new light. Him being blind wasn't the end. He saved a his carer from being expelled. That is something to feel good about. He did do something he felt was a good thing, finally. And this was probably because Charlie actually gave a *beep* about Frank's well being. None of his other family other than probably his daughter really felt that way. They didn't understand Frank so in order to deal with him, they didn't, and talked about him behind his back.
I hear what you're saying as well but I think Frank was pretty much no good, "war hero" he had previously been a bit of hard person to get on with. To put it bluntly he'd been an insufferable a-hole! It wasn't just a case of the family talking about him while he was around. It was how Randy's uncle had also behaved in front of him in the past. This of course being the sort of examples I previously gave. And for your Uncle to show up unannounced for Thanksgiving dinner, tell crude stories about his past exploits and then insult you to your face you can't satisfy your own wife Isn't going to do anything to make you change your mind about him.
I also think It's safe to say that the family didn't really have to tell Frank how they felt. I think the very fact that he hadn't been invited to dinner pretty much said it all. Not to mention how they reacted to him just suddenly turning up, the body language etc. It wasn't as if they were particularly welcoming.
I think by the time Frank had moved in with his niece he had mellowed a bit and his being blinded by an act of extreme carelessness had made him re-evaluate who he was as a person. But rather attempt to make more positive changes to his character he chose to wallow more in self pity. I'm no good and I'll never be anything more than no good! As mentioned already he said that very thing to his brother before leaving his house.
If anything I think the niece is the one who sees the good or the potential good in him. He doesn't see it but she does which is quite possibly why in some funny way he was negative in the way he talked about her and her family in front of Charlie. He just thought to himself, she's some dumb housewife, what the hell does she know blah blah! But I do totally agree with you that in the end he did realise that he was essentially a good man, at least now. He just needed to see it. It was pretty much the point of the movie.
Just think how Frank might have treated him has Randy been "Hey Uncle Frank, its been a while, how you been?" I actually think has Randy answered the door and said that, he might have been treated differently. And in all honesty, the "it's randy." "Randy who? You new?" Was delivered perfectly and was funny in my opinion. If Randy didn't take that as a joke, he really needs to lighten up.
shareOr it was Frank just being a provocative S.O.B. Why did Randy get annoyed? Perhaps because of the way had treated him in the past. It's all very well saying oh it was just a joke but it may have been Frank just getting a dig in. He knew who his nephew was but was winding him up not out of good natured fun, but to deliberately antagonise him and he continued to do so throughout dinner.
shareActually he really didn't start going off on Randy making fun of him until Randy deliberately started insulting him. Now the other thing you also have to question is whether Frank was actually right. I think that is actually what pissed Randy off more was that he knew his wife was unsatisfied.
shareOh, I think you're right there about Randy's wife not being satisfied. You can undoubtedly see the uncomfortable reaction because she knows It's true when Franks says it. As for the why Frank started antagonising Randy etc. It has been a long while since I've seen the movie so I may have to try watching it again. But from what I remember that Randy's feelings towards Frank must have come from somewhere. Whether it was just because he felt inadequate because he wasn't the man's man that Frank was. That or how Frank had treated him in the past. Or maybe it was a bit of both.
shareyeah give it another watch. I could just be biased because for the most part no matter how much of an *beep* Frank was being, I found him entertaining. I thought he was hilarious.
shareGiven the appearance and pristine nature of the family, I doubt that any of them have ever known anything other than the missionary position. Frank could have issued the "go down on her" statement to anyone at the table, and had a reasonable chance of being correct. Neither Gale or Gretchen are likely appearing in any family porn videos anytime soon.
Frank's aware of the stuffed suit and uptight nature of this family, and plays it to the hilt. That's the sum nature of the tension towards him. Nothing drastic has happened in the past. He didn't beat up Randy as a child, rape Gretchen, or any other dastardly deed. The family simply finds Frank as vulgar and unacceptable to their middle class sensibilities.
His family is normal, it is Slade who is out of line.
He is an alcoholic. More than likely he has attended many family functions, gotten drunk, said outrageous things, all to be the center of attention.
I was in both the Army and the Navy. I am from a middle class family, most have their Masters. No one has only a high school education.
We are Slades family in real life. And we have an alcoholic (sister in law) who causes havoc at every family function. For years, she would just be too tired to actually attend and that would cause a tearful phone call the morning of the event. That meant my brother couldn't come and neither could the child. Once she wore that out, she went on to other disruptive tactics.
I hate to speak poorly of Slade, I genuinely like his gung-ho attitude and a lot of his style, BUT in the end, a saint, he ain't. As an audience, we excuse a lot from characters, particular when they are...well, characters.
How many people would want Slade around their table? Would you want your husband or father to hang out with him?
I'd be real hesitant to let my boyfriend go away for a weekend with him.
All typos are hereby blamed on my iPad.
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What I've always found interesting, is the way the family treats Frank as if he's been a life long bum. The guy was a Lt Colonel in the Army, and had a decent career going until the grenade juggling act. Not only that, but he existed in some fairly high political circles at points in his career. His dress is impeccable, and he seems to know his way around high end NYC culture fairly well. Certainly not the typical skid row bum as Randy implies.
Well, first of all...Frank is an alcoholic. I have no doubt he has ruined many many family get togethers and holidays in the past. It's what they do.
Yes, I know he was planning to kill himself, but even with that aside, I have a feeling he has always insisted on being the center of attention at family functions. He was too good at it for this to be a one time thing.
I was in the Army. A sober Slade is someone I'd want to have my back. I still probably wouldn't bring him home to a family function.
A drinking Slade would be someone I'd avoid.
All typos are hereby blamed on my iPad.
I think in real life, Slade would be viewed as a well educated, retired Army Officer, with a drinking problem. The family treats him as a lifelong drunk and never-do-well. Totally dismissing his military accomplishments, intellect, and wisdom.
Slade's brother's family are upper middle class prudes. Frank is street ("I've been around you know"), and provoking them at family gatherings has become a pastime for him. Randy's older now, and has grown some balls, but finds out it would have been better to keep his mouth shut.
The true nature of the brother's family is indicative by the exclusion of the daughter. Whose marriage to a lower middle class ruffian, likely met with family condemnation. Although the truth is, she is the only one caring enough to take Frank in, in lieu of him being forced to live out his years in a Veteran's Home.
Interesting how so many posters view the film from the family's perspective.
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I think this allusion is presented well in the film. We don't know exactly what was the final straw in a long line of bad behavior by Slade, but there seems to be one. We just see it is a family made quite dysfunctional with the arrival of the black sheep, and not his arrival on the biggest family day of the year nor his handicap are enough to make them forget that his interactions with them have been nothing but miserable, sprinkled with an unforgivable act or two.
Given the timeline, I doubt Randy was around Frank very much as a child. Estimating Randy was in his early 30's, and Frank had done 26 years in the Army and been retired 5 years, that would leave Randy as a very young child before Frank entered the Army. Frank spent his career at various worldwide duty assignments as he references throughout the film. He wasn't homesteaded at some Army depot in White Plains, NY, and badgering little Randy while off duty.
Randy's dislike for Frank is based on family gossip, as part of his upbringing. His only actual exposure to Frank, is Frank's risque monologues at family gatherings. Frank has given up on the family viewing him from any other perspective. So he plays them for comedic value at gatherings, just for provocation.
One family's black sheep is another one's hero. It was a slow night, and I was watching MSNBC's "Lock-up" series, where they go inside prisons and do profiles on specific inmates. There was a guy who was a career criminal, who had recently completed his GED. The prison has a GED graduation ceremony. The guy's extended family attended. In interviews with family members, they were overtaken with emotion, and exclaiming how proud they were, because he was the first in the family to earn a GED. To the rest of us he's a criminal and a bum. To his family a role model. It's all in prospective.
To me, Col. Slade is a charismatic individual of intellect and interesting life experiences. To his family he's just a bum.
eelb -- it wasn't that the family looked down on Frank or thought he was a bum. They didn't want him there because he probably spoiled one too many gatherings with his abrasive personality and insulting demeanor and insistence on being the center of attention. Because he's the hero of the film, we see him as the center and his behavior is more justified but in actuality, he has some huge character flaws. He knew he wasn't welcome (otherwise he'd have been invited) and that he's not well liked so he did a childish thing a lot of people do in such situations -- he got liquored up and was deliberately vulgar and crass (he knew no one wanted to hear stories about his sexual escapades at the table), finally upping the ante and insulting his nephew and his marriage in order to get a response.
OK so the family was typical, tame middle class trying to have Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah, I guess he was onto something when he said Gail was sexually unsatisfied but really, there's nothing commendable about intruding into someone's home and trying to upset them by being obnoxious. Slade was not in the right and there's another instance of what seems acceptable in a crowd-pleasing fantasy but in real life few people would have tolerated their alcoholic brother coming uninvited to a gathering and insulting their son and his wife.
Well Evan, if the family disliked Frank to that extent, the correct response would be not to allow Slade into the home to begin with. They obviously feel some responsibility to him as a member of the family. If Randy hadn't decided to get into a verbal sparring match with Frank, nothing would have happened. If they're going to allow Frank to enter the home for Thanksgiving Dinner, the proper response would be to sit there and listen to his stories until he leaves.
share"If Randy hadn't decided to get into a verbal sparring match with Frank, nothing would have happened."
Exactly... "I was gonna go, now I'm not leavin'."
The more analyses I read, the more I love this clever movie.
shareHe was getting their names wrong on purpose and said he didn't remember because it wasn't important and he was extremely rude to him and his wife.
Its also implied he hated everyone in his life before he went blind.
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