First.... nice comeback..."Shut up....Get off your high horse you proto-fascist twit"? You had to attack me rather than the issue. Now I see what kind of person I am dealing with.
Had you read my statement I never said that the US was not to blame for any of what happened down there. YES, I did say that US troops killed innocent civilians, and unfortunatly it is a reality of war. If you realy think that we INTENTIALLY meant to kill innocent people, you my friend are the twit. You tell me of ONE... just ONE war where an innocent person did not lose their life.
The US has been wrong in MANY instances, over the course of it's existance, but I tend to think we attempt to lean from past mistakes. I like to believe that we hold ourselves to a higher degree of accountability, which we do. NO matter what the war, what the battle, what the incursion, it all sucks and it's the WORST possible thing that we could do to a fellow human being, but I am a realist. I tend to think of war as a neccessity at times to benefit the greater good.
Next time before you start name calling, think about both sidesof the issue, and go from there. Don't attack the person, it makes you look like the idiot.
reply
share
roycant07
14 years ago
I am sick of the idea that the US just stumbles into killing civilians by mistake. That is such horse crap. Operation Phoenix and the bombing of Laos and Cambodia were total acts of aggression, intentionally killing civilians to weed out insurgents. It happened. Deal with it.
reply
share
jtfsouth
14 years ago
What you are talking about are situations that happened almost 40 years ago. You obviously hold a very deep grudge against the US and that's fine, but you are condemning US for things of our past. What Country, State, Ethnicity, Race has not killed for the sake of their own well being. I am not sure of where you come from but I am sure your country has done some pretty bad things all in the name of self preservation.
I never denied that fact that the US hasn't done horrible things, but we have learned. Have you ever served? Have you ever had to defend yourself against an opposing force? Have you ever stood up and thought "If I do this I could lose my freedom or better yet...life?". I never wanted to think I could accidentally kill a innocent... hell I never liked the idea of having to potentially kill anyone for that fact even an aggressor. I have served for many years. I have faith that knowing what I was doing was for the greater good of humanity. Always remembering the the SHAMEFUL things of our past and hoping that we would never repeat them.
When is a country forgiven for what they have done from their past? Do you still blame all of Germany for happened to the Jews or Russians during WWII? What about the Japanese for the attack on Peal Harbor, killing MANY innocent people? How far are you going to condemn a group, how about the Cartheginians for invading Sicily hundreds of years ago? How long?
reply
share
roycant07
14 years ago
No you're country hasn't learned because it still supports horrible regimes that cater to US multi-national corporations. It still engages in covert ops to dismantle democratic regimes. It is backing questionable people in Afghanistan which is being over run by warlordism and the women who were once hailed as heroes when the Taliban regime went down are now ignored because they've come out against the US occupation and the government in Afghanistan.
It's always mistakes according to you guys though. Always some bumbling person higher up who mangled policy or a zealous general or whatever else you want to blame it on. Apparently, it's never because the US wants to be the aggressor. It seems like the US is always an ignorant child going in with idealistic dreams and "screws" it up. Yeah, right. Most of these policies are deliberate.
I am from France, and I admit that the French army was the aggressor in Algeria as in Indochina before the US took over.
reply
share
jtfsouth
14 years ago
Wow... coming from a country that never wants to do anything to help anyone BUT themselves. France gets involved with countries that encourage terrorism all the time, where is your outrage then? You don't care because either you benefit from it or you turn a blind eye to it. You country has done just as much if not more all in the name of self preservation. You are one of the biggest agressors in HISTORY and you fail to admit it or accept it. You OBVIOULY have NEVER served a day in the military because this discussion would have taken a different turn.
Your country runs covert ops too in many of these countries you see the US. I know because I have worked with them on occassion. You are too stubborn to think that France can do no wrong. Furthermore you blame others (The US) for problems out there that were long in existance before the US ever got involved. Women in Afghanistan hailed as Hero's? WHEN? Try never. Not even after the Taliban was toppled. Women have always been oppressed in that country. The war lords were there before the Taliban and will always be there as long as their is no functional government. They didn't emerge because of us. They emerged because of a lack of government.
When someone in the world needs "A police officer" who do they call on? Is it France? Nope, They ask the US because the US has a tendancy to offer and help more than any other country out there with people, supplies or money. When Haiti was hit by an earth quake, did France help? The US did. When quakes hit China a few years ago, did France help.... I don't think so, but the US did. What about when the Tsunami's hit a few years back, what did France do? The US sent people and supplies out there. What about when terrorism strike at anyone of a dozen countries around the world? Did France do anything? YES The US sure as hell did.
You benefit from hiding from trouble. You don't want to get involved and then point the finger of the worlds problems at those who do make an attempt at helping. You are the one who sits on a high horse and act like you are the better ones out there. Don't think for a second you are any better than anyone else out there. You one of those people that read a little something and think you are now a subject matter expert in it. You benefit from others doing a job you criticize. Why not do something than bitch about it on the internet. What have you ever done to HELP another human being other than yourself. What have you ever done to try to reach out to another group of people because you thought it was the right thing to do? I am betting never. Fortunatly I am glad to think that most people in France don't feel the same way you do.
Do you also think that France was not going into Iraq. One of the main reasons they didn't go was because President Chirac thought that sending 10-15,000 French troops would not be prepared for furture attacks. So because your country didn't have the troop strength is the reason why France didn't go into the invasion in 2004.
reply
share
roycant07
14 years ago
Apparently you think that I support the French State which has done probably worse things than Americans in many situations. Nice list of atrocities committed by the French State, it goes to show the things Western Nations go through to maintain imperial power in the third world.
How do humanitarian missions absolve the fact that the US has invaded or intervened in more countries than it has helped? Manipulating elections, assassinations, supporting dictators, full scale aggression, bombing campaigns, financial hegemony through the IMF and World Bank and G8.
This isn't even stuff that I am pulling from some far to the left conspiracy book either, it's a matter of public record through your counties Select Senate Committee Reports, stuff the CIA alone has admitted to doing and it's disgusting.
Every Western Capitalist nation does this so do not feel like I am just picking on the US but I am saying that as far as it all goes the US leads the pack.
"Furthermore you blame others (The US) for problems out there that were long in existance before the US ever got involved. Women in Afghanistan hailed as Hero's? WHEN? Try never. Not even after the Taliban was toppled. Women have always been oppressed in that country. The war lords were there before the Taliban and will always be there as long as their is no functional government. They didn't emerge because of us. They emerged because of a lack of government."
You moron. I was talking about the women that were hailed as heroes BY THE US when the army took down the Taliban. The woman specifically who was honored by Bush at the State of the Union, is now a major critic of US intervention in Afghanistan and has spoken out against the government there.
We in France at least for the most part know that our State does a lot of shady and horrible things and we protest and talk about that all the time but in the US you guys seem to think that the US can do no wrong and just falls into "bad policy" or just stumbles into problems, totally dismissing any evidence that certain policies are deliberately aggressive!
I suggest you read more on the history of your nation instead of just worrying about mine. I know the French State, as well as most Western nations are criminal enterprises maintaining imperial power.
reply
share
jtfsouth
14 years ago
You know what, I have refrained from name calling with you the entire time. I have never attacked you as a person yet on several posts you have attacked me.
You as a person have done NOTHING to benefit anything. What do you stand for? Nothing. You sit under the comfort of freedome and yet mock those around you. You don't feel you are just picking on the US? Yes you are. You mentioned it in other posts with other people....always talking about the US this and the US that.
I can't have a decent argument with you because you will either call me a name, believe me I wanted to do some name calling back, but I refrained because it has nothing to do with the argument. Or you mention acts of aggression with no specifics.
This started off as something about what happened in Panama 20 years ago, and you can't even argue that point because you don't know any of the specifics. I feel dumber just for the fact of even going off topic with you.
Sorry to say but this will be my last post with you on this. At first I though we could have an intelligent conversation, because you seem somewhat informed but obviously you can't keep it to the topic at hand.
reply
share
roycant07
14 years ago
The point of my first post was to point out that Americans seem to dismiss all scounnts that point to the Americans being the aggressor.
reply
share