for her sister. C'mon, she held onto the ball with a harder hit from a bigger girl previously and held on to the ball falling into the dugout. She's a toughie but had a soft spot for her sister always being in her shadow.
This should be a no-brainer and not a debate.
Yeah, I always take that bit during the season montage, when Dottie gets run over in a similar fashion by a bigger girl (a Racine Belle no less) and still manages to hold on to the ball, as foreshadowing.
shareI agree. It truly amazes me how people can even debate it.
As if it isn't obvious enough there is also the opening sequence which sets it up with her telling the older grandson to let the younger one win.
She had to let her win to give her confidence & allow her to step out of her shadow. It was an act of love.
It shouldn't amaze you when things are left completely open for interpretation like this.
I always thought that she DIDN'T drop the ball on purpose. Just because she held onto the ball ONCE, that doesn't mean that she's gonna hold onto it every time.
Besides, Kit probably had more determination to knock the ball out of her glove than any base-runner in history!
And telling the older grandson to let the younger one win doesn't prove anything. Maybe in hindsight, she realizes that it was a good thing that she dropped the ball because Kit really needed to win (for once!), and she sees now that maybe she was a bit rough on her little sister growing up (People tend to learn from their mistakes)
I really believe that Dottie wanted to win at that time. She didn't drive all the way back from Yellowstone JUST to throw a game for her sister--She came back to WIN! (And don't forget how she told the pitcher to ONLY throw her high ones)
And you could also argue that she didn't intentionally drop the ball, but she dropped it subconsciously because way deep down inside, she knew her sister needed to win WAY more than she did.
I am truly amazed at people who come to these boards, read other people's thoughts (that they had not thought of before), and STILL remain so narrow-minded that they can't consider for even a second that other interpretations (besides their own) might actually be possible.
After all, isn't that what these boards are for? To open up your mind and make you think a little?
Ignoring the setup shots, you have to consider impact. If Dottie dropped the ball because the other player hit her, why didn't the ball pop out of her hand or go flying off? Dottie hits the ground, her arm hits the ground, her hand hits the ground, beat beat beat beat beat, then her hand rolls open releasing the ball.
Her hand opens. That's not an interpretation; watch the scene again. It's like saying Jimmy didn't spit after walking away from Evelyn, the saliva dripped from his mouth.
Dottie gave Kit the World Series. And it pisses me off to no end when I watch that movie because Dottie didn't let herself get attached to the sport growing up. She helped on the farm and worked. Helped run the house, had a husband. She was playing ball longer than Kit (obviously). But she was too good at it, and too smart about it, to only be playing it because of natural ability. Like Jimmy said, she played it like she loved it. And the rest of the Peaches played it because they loved it and they worked their butts off. They deserved the World Series because they were better. Kit was a crybaby; she wanted passes and deals rather than carving out her own legacy. And Dottie should have stayed away if she wasn't going to play hard and help her team win because the Peaches basically ran their butts off for nothing.
Kit barreled into her so hard that she hit the ground so hard that it came out.
Yes, we see her hand OPEN--That typically happens when extremely-forceful things FORCE your fist to unclench.
And remember that we're watching it in slow motion--Things happen MUCH slower that way.
Look--It can go either way--Why do people have to be so determined that THEIR interpretation is the only possible way it can be?
Can't you just accept the possibility that other interpretations other than your own exist? Come on--Open your mind a little. I know you can do it!
(And by the way, I totally agree about Jimmy spitting--I saw the saliva too, but if somebody doesn't see it that way, that's okay too!)
You said it perfectly and you are right. She clearly drops the ball on purpose. It is not that hard to hold onto a baseball in a collision. She gave her bratty childish sister the win and she shafted her team. She had no right to do it. She should have stayed away.
shareYes, Dottie loves to play.
But remember that Dottie is a pragmatist with both feet firmly planted in reality.
Dottie loves to play but it's JUST A GAME.
She even says so at one point.
She doesn't see a future in it. She loves to play, she played and she'll probably play with her children as they grow older and maybe in church leagues, etc.
But baseball isn't her life.
Let her team down? Yes. But for them there will be other games.
She weighed the negatives her her team losing with the positives of giving Kit (yes, the spoiled, whiny crybaby) the last little push to be independent and break away to make her own life.
Had things gone the other way, Kit would have returned to Oregon with Dottie and Bob and possibly never played again. This way, she stayed, got a job, played again and eventually got married. She grew into her own person.
Yeah, I think Dottie threw the game but you'd be hard pressed to prove it. None of her teammates or Jimmy ever called her on it. None accused her of it. It was an opportunity to give her sister a gift and would forever be a secret. Because if Kit knew Dottie had thrown the game things would be even worse between them.
Dottie took a chance and it paid off. Also a theme of the movie.
Definitely other games, but maybe never another championship. To let a whole team of supposed friends down, some of whom had their own issues and continued working through their obstacles (unlike that bratty little sister of dottie's - I think I've purposely blocked her name because I can never remember it) was horrible of dottie.
shareYes, Dottie loves to play.
But remember that Dottie is a pragmatist with both feet firmly planted in reality.
Dottie loves to play but it's JUST A GAME.
She even says so at one point.
She doesn't see a future in it. She loves to play, she played and she'll probably play with her children as they grow older and maybe in church leagues, etc.
But baseball isn't her life.
Let her team down? Yes. But for them there will be other games.
She weighed the negatives her her team losing with the positives of giving Kit (yes, the spoiled, whiny crybaby) the last little push to be independent and break away to make her own life.
Had things gone the other way, Kit would have returned to Oregon with Dottie and Bob and possibly never played again. This way, she stayed, got a job, played again and eventually got married. She grew into her own person.
Yeah, I think Dottie threw the game but you'd be hard pressed to prove it. None of her teammates or Jimmy ever called her on it. None accused her of it. It was an opportunity to give her sister a gift and would forever be a secret. Because if Kit knew Dottie had thrown the game things would be even worse between them.
Dottie took a chance and it paid off. Also a theme of the movie.
You said it perfectly and you are right. She clearly drops the ball on purpose. It is not that hard to hold onto a baseball in a collision. She gave her bratty childish sister the win and she shafted her team. She had no right to do it. She should have stayed away.
I'm with you, the movie's message seems to be crybabies win because someone will feel sorry them and give them a break. Also, it didn't seem fair to Dottie's teammates to throw the game just to make her kid sister feel good about herself. I would rather have seen Kit win it outright, rise above her whiny attitude. That's a better message.
There's no terror in a bang, only in the anticipation of it. -Hitchcock
Agree.
shareAgreed, I never felt that Dottie dropped it on purpose. The fact that she held onto in on a previous occasion means nothing. In basketball I can make a tough 3 point shot and then miss an easy 2 pointer. It happens and I certainly did not do it intentionally. That other girl might have been bigger than Kit but Kit was extremely determined and on that day in that instance she prevailed.
share@soggybottom: very well put. I agree with you 100%.
shareShe dropped it, no doubt. The fact that they're sisters makes it even more obvious. She GREW UP with that little, whiny, annoying person probably trying to knock her down her whole life. She would be more than prepared to take one more hit from her.
shareThat's true. It's a good thing she screwed over teammates so that her sister could feel rosy. Dottie's actions are similarly questionable when she immediately ditches her team after her husband shows up. I understand that her character was never really into it, but why quit so close to the end of the season? Are we supposed to believe that her husband would mind taking in a world series before heading back to Oregon? These two points are the main failings of a movie which should have portrayed its heroine and women as more serious athletes.
shareNo, she didn't tell the older one to let the younger one win, but to let him have a shot, just like she did for whiny little Kit.
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
Yes.. Dottie is far and away the best player in the league.. The look on Hanks face basically acknowledges it. She could do anything she wanted to on the field but her compassion for her sister took over in that moment..
shareAs much as alot of people feel about "the love of a sister", which is a good sentiment, I think it is a real mistake to deny Kit's character the grit, determination, and accomplishment of finally becoming what she had wanted to since the first 2 minutes of the film.
Secondly, it is a rude departure from one other very important theme of the film, teammates and sportsmanship. If any of the Peaches thought that Dottie threw the game, she would be skewered. And if it was so obvious to you that she did, so it would be to those playing on her team. To add: Dropping the ball on purpose would also be analogous to her spitting on the rest of her teammates. There is no greater offence in a team sport. One of the many themes in the movie is integrity and sportsmanship. That doesn't work. She didn't drop it on purpose.
So what's the message?
A. Older sister, who happens to be a very good athlete and loves the game and competition, and who has been dealing with an (I think we all agree) generally unlikable character of her younger sister, throws the biggest game in her life and in effect stabs the hearts of her teammates minutes after instructing the pitcher exactly how to defeat her little sister, by intentionally dropping the ball in a completely unexpected, and it the case of Kit, ill advised showdown at home plate.
or
B. A younger sister, who has spent all her life living in the shadow of her older, more beautiful an more talented older sister, has one chance to erase all her fears (did you see the shot of her 'on deck' - "c'mon Kit, you have to bat next!") and through determination and 'heart' becomes the hero she always wanted to be. And ignoring the 'safe' route by recklessly running through the 'hold up' sign at 3rd base, and use that determination and pent up frustration to ultimately 'take' that win instead of having it given to her.
I like B.
You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design
There was never any debate!! You were always supposed to believe she dropped the ball on purpose!
shareThere was never any debate!! You were always supposed to believe she dropped the ball on purpose!
Spot off! Yet another person who can't handle other opinions/interpretations other than her own.
shareYes I can't handle the opinion of someone I've never met. My point is not all scripts are left open to interpretation.
shareAt least you can admit it. Most people on these boards can't (although I can't see why whether or not you've met the person should matter when it comes to opening your mind a little bit and taking into consideration other people's ideas)
You're right--Not all things are directly left open to interpretation, but I think this one really is.
Here's a quote for you to think about...
Throw her nothing but high ones. She can't hit 'em, and she can't lay off 'em
Why would they have put that in there if they wanted to make is SOOOO clear that she was going to throw the game for her sister? Remember that this was said just three pitches right before the big play.
I think she fully intended to beat her but couldn't do it in the end. Something made her change her mind. She realised Kit had to win to move on with her life. Dottie's life was complete already.
shareI can buy that explanation, but she sure changed her mind in a hurry.
But now can you at least say that it wasn't obvious as you thought? People see things differently, and that's what I like about coming to these boards--To see ideas that I never thought of before.
The problem I have with these boards is that people are so determined to be right and are so determined that the opposing viewpoint just HAS to be wrong that they never take a second to say "Gee, I never thought of that" because all they want to do is WIN the argument...
...which is EXACTLY why I have a hard time accepting the fact that Dottie just threw the game. It's human nature to always win, and she was extremely competitive the entire movie.
But I gotta give it to ya MissCars--You're A LOT better than most people on here.
I do know what you mean. Forums are full of people so shy in real life that they become loud mouth monsters on the net to make them feel good about themselves. IMDB is full of them. They argue for arguements sake.
Back to the point in hand though - in this case I truly believe that whether it has now become a debate or not it wasn't intended to be by the writers.
Older Dottie at the beginning proves she learnt being competitive & winning wasn't her priority when she tells the older Grandson to let his little brother win the basketball game. It bookends the last bit where she throws the game for her sister.
I must admit I am not a competitive person in general so maybe I'm not the best example but if I knew a loved one could be happy, overcome their demons & enjoy life by me simply being a "loser" just once in my life I would do it in a heartbeat.
I don't know what the writer's intention was, but the way that the final product turned out, it left it wide open for debate.
Yeah, it's obvious that "older Dottie" learned a good lesson there, but did she learn it BEFORE or AFTER the big play?
I can see that you're a good-hearted person who probably wouldn't mind being a "loser" for the right reasons (and that's very admirable of you), but in that big of a game with so much on the line on that one play, I can't see anybody doing it (not even you).
Look at it this way: Had she held onto the ball, the score is STILL tied and game moves on. Kit would still have more opportunities to help her team win. It's not like the game ends right there with Kit being the big loser.
Besides, with how fast things happen in games, I really don't think Dottie had enough time to analyze all of this. In one split second, she going to go from doing everything she could to help her team win to "Oh, but if we win, then Kit's gonna hate me forever, and I'll have to deal with an annoying little sister for the rest of my life who is going to insist on holding a grudge against me and I'll never hear the end of it..."
Anyway, I'm talked enough about this. I'm going to go ahead and declare myself the "loser" and you the "winner".
Hell, if it worked for Dottie, maybe it'll work for me.
Well I respecfully disagree that a game comes anytwhere near as important to someone you love but I am happy to agree to disagree :)
shareOld Dottie did NOT tell the older grandson, Jeffrey, to let his brother WIN. She told him to "give him a chance to shoot". (I just watched that scene on Netflix to confirm that direct quote.)
Regardless, she dropped the ball on purpose. The force of the collision proves she did. Watch the scene and you'll see Dottie knocked off her feet, but the ball just trickles a couple of inches away from her fingers after her hand hit the ground and laid there for a count. Had the ball been jarred loose because of the hit, it would have gone flying as soon as her hand hit the ground.
I am a competitive person and I couldn't throw a game, let alone a championship. I'm a middle child, between brothers, and we all wanted to beat each other.
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
@soggybottom: I really like your interpretation.
In the deleted scenes of the film (on the special edition DVD), extra scenes show how Dottie will do anything to win a game- including knocking out a pregnant teammate to the point of having her need medical attention. Kit even scolds her for "always having to win."
I also think Dottie dropped the ball accidentally. Not only does she say "high fast balls" to the picture, but the split second before Kit knocks into her, Dottie's face is looking scared and unprepared. There's no way in that instant she would be able to say "let me just drop the ball and let this bytch win." No way at all.
PLUS from a storyteller's perspective it doesn't make narrative sense for her to just let Kit win. The point of the story was that Kit was always second fiddle to Dottie. Dottie was better at everything, and Dottie GOT Kit everything (on the train, in the league, etc). The ending was supposed to symbolize Kit getting it on her own. Even the end shows this ("You wanted it more then me, you did what you had to do.") Dottie was not the type to just bow down like that.
In all fairness, a change of heart can happen in a split second, if not sooner. I thought at that moment she decided that her team was worth sacrificing for the sake of her sister. It was selfish, but to me seemed deliberate.
When you're 17 a cow can seem dangerous and forbidden...am I alone here?
A split second? Really?
I guess it depends on how fast of a thinker you are. For me, it takes a few seconds to process any kind of a thought, and of course it would take A LOT longer when making a big decision, like this one, and she really didn't have much time to think between pitches.
That's why I think that the argument works better if you say that she dropped it subconsciously. Because consciously, she wanted to do whatever it took to prove to the team that they needed her back to win, but I can see how someone might reason that deep down inside, she knew that her sister needed it more.
I just can't see with how competitive she was the entire film that she would willingly lose the game on purpose.
And as I've stated many times on this thread, holding onto the ball wouldn't make Kit lose. The game would've remained tied and gone on into extra innings. Kit would have had other opportunities to be the hero WITHOUT any help from her sister.
The split second could have also been the length if time she thought it was a good idea, but it happened at a really crappy time unfortunately. It's just a stab in the dark, though, rewatching today it seemed much more obvious that they wanted it to be ambiguous. It certainly makes for a fun debate though.
When you're 17 a cow can seem dangerous and forbidden...am I alone here?
I totally agree Shiza, and I'm actually a fan of both sides. I think it's interesting if she dropped it on purpose, and it's interesting if she didn't (or somewhere in between)
One of the best arguments for dropping it on purpose (that I haven't seen on this board yet) is the scene where Dottie looks over into the opponents' dugout and sees Kit crying. I think that they were trying to show us that Dottie was starting to care about her little sister's feelings for once, and that may have had some impact on the final play.
I'm sure that the debate will continue on this board for years to come!
Plenty of opportunities? How do you figure that? The game could have ended the next inning without Kit coming to the plate again. She'd already been taken out as pitcher after getting rocked, and she may never have gotten to field a ball the rest of the game. Haven't you ever played a game and never had ball hit to you? Have you ever played?
The way it was filmed, she dropped the ball on purpose. It wasn't her hand hitting the ground and the ball flying out, her hand was on the ground and the ball trickles out, rolling less than a foot from her hand. She committed the ultimate sports betrayal.
Oh, and not all of us need to over analyze a situation before making a decision.
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
You're a piece of work. Bitch and moan about people not being able to see another's point of view, then doing exactly what you're crying about.
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
I always used to think that Dottie dropped the ball on purpose. I watched the movie again a couple of days ago, and I'm not sure I think that way anymore. I think that Dottie was extremely ticked off at her sister, and was determined to shut her down... UNTIL she saw her freaking out in the dugout. I think that once that happened, she realized it wasn't important. She still played her best, but she wasn't playing with the sole purpose of beating her sister. If she had still been as pissed off as she was at the beginning of the game, I think she would have held on to that ball for dear life just out of spite. Now I just believe what Dottie said at the end: Kit just wanted it more than her.
I do believe that Dottie was happy for Kit, though. I can also understand why people think she dropped it on purpose. The next time I watch it, I may change my mind again. :)
Thanks Acquiese. That's the best post on this thread yet!
Everything that you said is very thought-provoking and extremely important to the build-up of the climactic play. What was going through her mind? Was she really feeling that bad for her sister? Was she trying as hard as she could to help the team to prove to her coach and her teammates that they were right to let her come back to the team?
She could STILL hang onto the ball, and not make Kit the big loser. The game would've still gone on. I think that had Racine lost because of Kit on that play, people would've had a better argument that Dottie felt so bad for her that she had to throw the game.
I liked talking to MissCars--She was really nice, but she so was so determined to not budge an inch, and I can't understand why people have to be that way.
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with things being capable of going 2 different ways. People just can't stand to have a shred of doubt about anything, and that's sad.
I think that you can really choose your own ending for this movie. However you want it to be, you're right! What's wrong with that?
But that WAS the final out of the series! Had Dottie tagged Kit, the game would have been over.
shareNope, the game would've still been tied and kept on going.
Remember, Kit was the WINNING run, not the tying run.
she dropped the ball because she knew thats what she had to do to mend/keep a relationship with her sister because kit is a horrible spiteful selfish cow
shareShe dropped the ball on purpose. Kit wanted the spotlight for once in her life and Dotti gave it to her. I was a catcher and have gotten run into many of times and held on to the ball every time so it is not hard once you have the ball to safely secure it in your glove. Dotti clearly had enough time to get the ball in her glove and position herself to make the tag.
shareI honestly the scene is just poorly filmed, and looks like Dotty dropped the ball on purpose.
It should have come flying out at the moment of impact, but for dramatic purposes they had Dottie hold on longer, so they could show the close-up of the ball dropping. I believe all the debate is the result of the director not watching enough MLB home plate collisions and nothing more.
No way Dottie would have thrown the game in my opinion.
It really doesn't matter. Kit was out. Dottie was still holding the ball until she hit the ground. The impact didn't jar the ball loose (in which case Kit would have been safe) so the umpire blew the call.
share[deleted]
And you're one of those people. Obviously you can't take someone expressing their opinion.
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
I can take it just fine. What makes you think that I can't?
Are you sure that you replied to the right person? I've done nothing on this thread but say (over and over) how it can go either way--It's up to each person to interpret that scene to fit their own desires, and NOBODY can be wrong (And I'm totally open to new interpretations too if anybody has any by the way).
If that so OBVIOUSLY proves that I can't handle other people's opinions, then I guess you're right.
My apologies.
Isn't it amazing how you cry for others to accept other opinions, yet you whine when someone expresses their opinion. Why is that?
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
Isn't it amazing how you have no idea what you're talking about?
I've said OVER AND OVER ON THIS VERY THREAD how it can go either way.
You are the one who insists that I only see it one way and can't handle the other viewpoint.
Do I have to take the other viewpoint to prove it to you?
Yes, she may have dropped it on purpose. She may have realized that her sister was going to be a Jejozi for the rest of her life if she didn't let her win.
So there. You win.
Happy now?
lol. What's the point of you even posting if all you're going to do is B&M about how people post? And then B&M whenever someone calls you on it. Please, give up and go away.
One last question; how loud do dogs howl in pain when you pass gas?
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
Are you for real?
All YOU do on here is bitch and moan, so what's YOUR reason for posting? You sure seem to really get off on it.
As for me, I can't figure out where you're coming from because I'm not bitching and moaning about anything. My ONLY problem with most posters on IMDb is that they don't make the slightest effort to consider other people's points of view, and then along comes the poster-child for the EXACT-thing that I'm talking about (and I DO mean "child").
It's like you want so desperately badly to prove me right (over and over and over). Well, I gotta give you one thing--You're sure doing one helluva job at that!
Show me on this thread where you ADMIT that you can handle other people's opinions on this topic? Because all you have ever done on this thread is bitch and moan at me because you can't handle the other point of view.
On the other hand, I have proven OVER AND OVER that I can handle it just fine. All I've tried to do is get people to see that it can go either way. Why do you have such a problem with that?
It's left open to interpretation. Is your tiny-little brain even capable of understanding what that means? It means that each person can decide for themselves how to interpret it. Yet you seem so determined that nobody is allowed to think any differently than you (regarding a MOVIE for crying out loud), and you're going to bitch and moan at me about it until kingdom-come (although you don't seem to have the slightest clue as to what you're even bitching and moaning about).
So keep right on calling me out for trying to help people understand each other a little better and get along. What a great helper you are. You're like the gift that keeps on giving!
How loud do dogs howl in pain when I pass gas?
That is sooooo funny and soooooo mature! How old are you? You can't possibly be more than 10 because you are acting like a whiny little 3-year-old bawl-baby when they're not getting their way.
I feel so sorry for anyone who has to deal with your pathetic bitchy moany whiny ass in real life if you have to go waaaaaay out of your way to pick fights with complete strangers on the internet for no reason.
Wow, I sure found a winner here. Lucky me!!!
lol Yer funny. So righteous in your indignation! And soooo grown up in your response! lol More hypocrisy.
What does it matter to you if people disagree? You come on here and tell everybody how YOU think they should conduct themselves. Then stoop to name calling if someone points out that it none of your dam business.
This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.
<un-gunk>
"I'm a vehemently anti-nuclear, paranoid mess, harbouring a strange obsession with radioactive sheep."
[deleted]
The other Peaches didn't watch the MOVIE so they didn't know the backstory like we did! lol
X
@Mickyfinn
I have to agree with you. Dottie could do anything she wanted to in the league, but Kit didn't have a life and she was tired of living in Dottie's shadow. And also Dottie missed her husband, so what Dottie do? She drops the ball on purpose and she gets to live with her husband and her sister Kit gets to have her own identity in baseball, no longer in big sister's shadow.
I'm sorry, but you don't agree with me. You may want to read my post again. I strongly believe that she did NOT drop the ball on purpose.
You just have to be resigned-
You're crashing by design
Woah this is one long debate here! I don't think Dottie dropped the ball on purpose either - if she had why did she tell Ellen Sue to pitch a high fast ball that she knew Kit couldn't resist hitting? It doesn't make any sense.
shareIt's depressing to me to find that so many people COMPLETELY misinterpret that moment. In order for Dottie to have dropped the ball on purpose, we'd have to accept the fact that, after all, Kit really couldn't do it on her own without her big sister INTENTIONALLY THROWING A CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.
We'd also have to accept that Dottie is such a selfish person with such a narrow view of things that she would allow her concern for her sister to overshadow the responsibility she had to her entire team and her manager.
This completely ignores everything we've seen of Dottie which is that she's a competitor and a team leader who puts the team first.
So Dottie returned, ultimately, to help her team to LOSE the World Series, affect Jimmy's bonus, his future, etc. all so that she could enable her younger sister and give her an unfair advantage.
And don't even get me started on the fact that this would render Kit's ultimate moment of accomplishment and triumph as nothing more than a big fake engineered by her sister.
The whole point of Dottie telling Kit afterwards that she (Kit) simply WANTED IT MORE is to underline the fact that this was Kit's transformative moment...when she finally conquered her fears and accomplished something on her own.
Any other interpretation show's a complete misunderstanding of the point of this movie.
It's depressing to me to find that so many people COMPLETELY misinterpret that moment. In order for Dottie to have dropped the ball on purpose, we'd have to accept the fact that, after all, Kit really couldn't do it on her own without her big sister INTENTIONALLY THROWING A CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.
We'd also have to accept that Dottie is such a selfish person with such a narrow view of things that she would allow her concern for her sister to overshadow the responsibility she had to her entire team and her manager.
This completely ignores everything we've seen of Dottie which is that she's a competitor and a team leader who puts the team first.
So Dottie returned, ultimately, to help her team to LOSE the World Series, affect Jimmy's bonus, his future, etc. all so that she could enable her younger sister and give her an unfair advantage.
And don't even get me started on the fact that this would render Kit's ultimate moment of accomplishment and triumph as nothing more than a big fake engineered by her sister.
The whole point of Dottie telling Kit afterwards that she (Kit) simply WANTED IT MORE is to underline the fact that this was Kit's transformative moment...when she finally conquered her fears and accomplished something on her own.
Any other interpretation show's a complete misunderstanding of the point of this movie.
What the last two post show is that Dottie had to throw the game in some way, shape or form. If Dottie's full intention was to to simply win at all cost, how does Kit beat her? The answer is, she can't. Isn't that the whole point?
Dottie could live with herself after the game. If Kit lost, she couldn't. Kit is far too weak of a person in that regard.
Why is it impossible? A collision at home where the catcher drops the ball is hardly without precedent. As for Dottie throwing the game, hogwash. She gave the pitcher perfect advice to strike out Kit, exploiing Kit's weakness as a hitter--Dottie had every intention of winning. That final play at home was about Kit digging deep and coming through on her own merits, thus finally climbing out of her sister's shadow. To interpret otherwise is to completely miss the underlying drama of the entire film.
shareI agree! There have been some really good points in this thread.
When I first saw this movie as a kid, I was completely convinced that Dottie dropped the ball on purpose to let Kit have her moment. However, after playing the sport for 15 years, watching this movie a zillion times, and reading posts on here my opinion has changed.
From the beginning we see that Kit loves the game more. Dottie has the natural talent and enjoys playing, but she would've been content to stay home and wait for her husband to return. Kit wants to step out from her sister's shadow, for sure, but she also has a ton of passion for the sport. It frustrates her that Dottie is so gifted naturally and continues to overpower her.
As for the final play, I'm going to have to agree with the consensus that Kit wanted it more. Obviously Dottie desired to win. She showed up for the game after missing almost the entire series and told Ellen Sue what to pitch, knowing Kit wouldn't be able to resist the high ones. Plus you have to take into account that Dottie was a team player. It seems unlikely that she would sabotage her teammates' hard work just to appease her sister.
I do sometimes wish they had made Kit a bit more likeable throughout the film. I understand the whole overshadowed sibling thing, but the way she acted towards her sister was embarrassing at times. (Nothing against Lori Petty; I thought she and Geena were great.)
I also wonder why they show the ball rolling out of Dottie's hand. We see it land in her glove just before that so why would it be in her bare hand? The only conclusion I came to was perhaps she was trying to pull the ball out to show the umpire, as we see in an earlier clip.
I'm just overanalyzing at this point. Man, I love this movie. :)
"Most fools think they are only ignorant." -Benjamin Franklin
I never thought about the ball being in her hand instead of her glove before, but my guess is that she held the ball in her glove with that hand to secure it better, and then, upon the collision, her hands separated, and her bare hand is what hung onto it before she hit the ground.
There was no time to show it to the umpire. That's usually done waaaay after impact to show that you held onto it throughout everything.
Yes, this is a great movie, and this scene is BY FAR my favorite part because it can really go either way, and even though I whined earlier about people not being open-minded, looking back I see that I was wrong because people don't take time to read other's thoughts and comment unless they have at least a little doubt (Nobody just dares to admit it).
I think that both sides have been stated well on this thread. I applaud the few posters above me who took my side and added some better arguments than I'd even thought of, but I disagree with the notion that you HAVE to accept this interpretation to understand the film.
It doesn't matter whether the writers/directors intended it to be one way or the other--You pick the interpretation that works the best for you, and we all end up happy. This is what makes the best movies stand above the rest (in "a league of their own" if you will)
I haven't seen this movie in years, although I do remember it fairly well and really liked it. And I don't claim to be a mind reader of either Dottie or the writers, and apparently a lot of other people on here think that they are. However I think that the writers intentionally meant for this scene to be ambiguous, so that different people would have different takes on whether or not Dottie dropped the ball on purpose.
I think that people on both sides of the debate should be more respectful to the other side, because the answer to this question isn't obvious and there is strong evidence on both sides. My personal opinion is that Dottie probably didn't drop the ball on purpose, and if she did, it was almost certainly unconscious. I highly doubt that she consciously thought "I've got to drop this ball on purpose because my sister will continue to hate me if I don't, or because she wants it more than I do". Its unlikely that a stable-minded Dottie would change her mind after just a minute earlier instructing the pitcher on how to strike her sister out. So if on the off-chance Dottie did to some extent drop the ball on purpose, it was almost certainly on an unconscious level.
And for the record, I am not one of those people who thinks that people do things unconsciously on a regular basis.
Thanks Darth Skywalker, for explaining it better. I'm sure Dottie was way too competitive to INTENTIONALLY throw the game away. However, Kit wanted it more b/c she was in Dottie's shadow. Baseball was all Kit had. Plus, has anyone forgotten that Dottie missed her husband? That may have been the reason why she threw the game (although not intentionally); Kit wanted it more, and although Dottie was competitive, thinking about her husband might've made her lose focus on the game, and therefore was the opening Kit needed to outshine her sister and win the game for her team.
shareTotally did. And it made me so angry. Kit was such an annoying whiner. I felt bad for the Peaches, they worked so hard to win. Do not like the ending to this movie.
shareI thought that if she did drop the ball on purpose, it was a loving gesture. Kit would have died if she went back home, Dottie was giving her sister a chance to get out of their home town and have her own identity. She always looked out of Kit so it would have made sense if she did that. And since Dottie didn't tell Kit what she did, Kit would never know what her sister did for her.
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I think it should be a no-brainer that she didn't. It turned out she legitimately was human. Yep. Deliberately beaten by her younger sister.
This theory makes no sense because it was pretty obvious she was trying not only to beat Kit, but also had no problem humiliating her (almost taking her head off with the ball?). She was there to win. She was doing everything in her power to make sure Ellen Sue striked her out, going so far as to call a time out to ensure that Ellen Sue threw the kind of balls she knew Kit had a lot of trouble hitting.
So at the last minute as Kit was rounding 3rd base, she suddenly has a change of heart? Yep. The panicked look on Dottie's face makes it clear that she had it all under control at that point... including a split-second change of motive. (haha)
She was thrown physically and psychologically off her game. She didn't even expect her sister to hit the ball, let alone make the ballsy move of running through third. There was no time to think about anything but bracing for the hit.
Give it up, Dottie fans.
Idiocy to think this isn't debatable. There is nothing concrete stating that Dottie dropped the ball on purpose. Those who do obviously never played any kind of team sport or at least not seriously anyway. Totally against Dottie's nature to drop the ball.
bushtony and his mother suffer from Congential Stupidtiy and they didn't see it coming.
Dottie saw how upset Kit was in the dugout, and I think although part of her definitely wanted to win....she let go of that ball on purpose, to give her little sister what she always wanted. Dottie could have easily won the game for them, but she just didn't care about it as much and knew it would DESTROY her relationship with her little sister.
Winning/playing didn't mean as much to Dottie, and never would. She gave Kit a chance to be great, to win and be the hero, because she knew how important it was to Kit.
That is all. :)
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Yeah, she did drop the ball on purpose. I never liked the fact that she did that. It cost her team the game.
shareNo way.
Dottie wouldn't have told the pitcher to give her some high heat. A pitch she couldn't hit...
Case closed
I truly think she threw the game. Maybe Dottie was wanting to win when she said, "throw her nothing but high ones," line but maybe she was just telling the pitcher that to feign like she knew what she was talking about. If we go with the former, and Dottie saw Kit hit the ball, maybe she thought, "if she comes to me, I'll give her the win." Or maybe, she was feigning to the pitcher, knew her sister would get one hit and then ultimately dropped the ball to give her sister the win.
The way the ball falls out looks painfully obvious to me that Dottie gave her sister the win. "I like the high ones." Come on, she had to know Kit would get the hit.
____
"When Gotham is ashes, you have my permission to die." — Bane (TDKR)
I don't belive Dottie dropped the ball on purpose, and here's why:
1) She came back to play the last game of the championship. Why would Dottie come back just to lose on purpose?
2) In the top of the 9th Kit had pitched a shutout. When Dottie came to the plate there were 2 runners on base, and 2 out. If Dottie wanted to lose on purpose why not swing through 3 pitches? This would really make Kit the hero because she would have struck out one of the best batters in the league, and she would have pitched a shutout in the championship game. Instead Dottie hits a line drive, and scores two runners, helping the Peaches take the lead. Does that sound like someone who wants to lose on purpose?
3) In the bottom of the 9th, Dottie tells Ellen Sue to pitch high fastballs. Kit's biggest weakness, which up to this point, she has never been able to hit.
Finally, the question arises, how could Dottie drop the ball? She's too talented, she didn't drop it before. Well I'll tell you how. She was surprised, and not at all prepared to for this type of situation to happen. Being the older sister, and better at pretty much everything, she was never concerned about Kit. She never thought Kit would be on an opposing team, and she never thought Kit would be trying to run through her to score a run. In her entire life, Dottie never considered this situation, and was visibly surprised when it played out. Kit, on the other hand, always came in second to Dottie, so I can pretty much guarantee she played this situation over and over and over in her head for most of her life. She knew exactly what she was doing when she ran through third base. So Kit knocked the ball out of Dottie's hand because Dottie did not properly brace for the collosion, and the reason for that is she was extremely surprised by the situation. She never, ever, imagined Kit, her kid sister, would be trying to run her over at the plate.
Also, it's difficult to fully analysis the collosion at home plate, you have to remember, the director is shooting it for dramatic affect. If it looked like a normal full speed "Pete Rose type barreling into a catcher" clip, that wouldn't be nearly dramatic as a slow motion clip with both players hitting the ground and the shot of the ball rolling out of the catcher's hand. For all we know, Kit may of knocked Dottie unconscious for a split second, causing her to loosen her grip after she hit the ground.