Penguin = Trump. - Batman Returns (1992) Discussion

[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

But Trump grew up in wealth and privilege, whilst the Penguin had a tragic childhood after he was abandoned by his parents and thrown into the sewer.

The Penguin is a tragic, sympathetic character. Trump is most certainly not.

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[–] jrock2310 7 years ago

I mean... If you want to get technical they also have different names. I get what you're saying, but the penguin wasn't sympathetic. He garnered sympathy by manipulating the public, then once he was exposed, he was reviled.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

You didn't feel bad about his life as an abandoned child in the sewers, and being shunned by society because of his deformity?

Trump is, to me, the embodiment of privilege and despite his attempts to play the anti-establishment card, he is the establishment. The Penguin by contrast it the ultimate outcast. The Shreck family and the Ice Princess are more privileged because they have the wealth, celebrity and good-looks our society revers.

That is to say, I feel sorry for the Penguin. I don't remotely feel bad for Trump. He's an entitled jerk with a huge ego that comes from a gilded life and being told he's a 'star' by everyone around him.

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

Always have the throw the least important character in there, don't you, Harve?

Movie Theater: Young Frankenstein 10/10. RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time.

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[–] jrock2310 7 years ago

as for initial sympathy for the penguin -- sure. you could certainly feel empathy for his situation AT THE BEGINING. but that was before we knew the full scope of the story. the penguin ultimately used that narcissism to fool the public. it was a façade.

w/ regards to being a orphans... many orphans exist that do not go around running underground crime rings and trying to gain (more) power by becoming a corrupt mayor. granted, shreck put him up to become mayor... but penguin took the bait.

penguin felt that society shunned him, therefore, he felt justified w/ his actions. but the reality is it was just his parents.

if penguin could be analyzed by a professional... he'd easily be labeled a sociopath and a psychopath.

naturally, trump and penguin's lives do not mirror each other - that was never my contention anyways - more so the underbelly of corruption, greed, egotism, dishonesty, fraudulent, criminal aspects of their lives.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

I do appreciate the superficial similarities between the two men running for political office, their lascivious sexual nature and demagogic status, but I'd also argue that there is a real pathos to The Penguin, irrespective of his evil intentions, that I don't see in a blue-eyed one-time golden boy like Trump.

People forget that during the 80s and much of the 90s, Trump was not the monstrous joke he, quite rightly, is today. He was seen as the poster boy endorsement for Western capitalism, and was generally respected by those people in positions of power and authority, such as the Clintons, and the very media that now, mostly, scorns him (Fox News excepted). That partly explains why he was able to get away with so much mendacity and lewd, misogynist behaviour (by contrast, the Penguin had to invent a story of him saving the mayor's baby to finally gain a shred of acceptance after 33 years spent living within the sewers or as a circus freak).

Still, Gotham was quite a shallow, fickle society, and I suspect it was only because of the false narrative of him 'saving the mayor's baby' that it ever gave Oswald the time of day to begin with. I'm not saying the Gothamites deserved the Penguin's ire, but I also wouldn't say they were entirely blame-free or that his parents weren't representative of a wider social mindset within the city.

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[–] jrock2310 7 years ago



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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

Well done, Harvey. I agree.

Movie Theater: Young Frankenstein 10/10. RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time.

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[–] ChillinVillain123 7 years ago

I just finished watching it and thought the same thing!

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[–] Nike316 7 years ago

Penguin = Quasimodo, the crime boss.

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[–] audierules 7 years ago

if this movie was made today The Penguin would easily win the election and no one would throw tomatoes at him after Batman played that recording, they would cheer him on more.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

Penguin was a poor guy who lived in squalor and wanted to end global warming.

Does that sound like Donald J. Trump to you? 

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[–] oldchummer 7 years ago

Who also felt like murdering children. Such a poor guy.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

He wasn't born wanting to murder children.

Besides, I expect the privileged Trump had more in common with Gotham's spoiled firstborn children than the poor, dirty, disadvantaged, discriminated against and unloved Penguin.

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[–] oldchummer 7 years ago

He probably would've been screwed up either way. He instead got raised by a circus gang. He was also praised by the people for being "the tortured mutant person abandoned by his parents," even though it was a ruse for the most part. I've never seen the Penguin as a character to sympathize with, even if that is the intention. There's not necessarily that moment in the movie where it shows any empathetic side to him either. Don't get me wrong his parents were terrible too, but his more bestial instincts would've made him crappy regardless.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

We don't know how he would have turned out. He was thrown into the sewers when he was barely a few months old.

I don't subscribe to the idea that anyone is born evil and irredeemable. That seems like a very conservative, even Trumpian, notion to me...

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[–] TheButlerDidItYes 7 years ago

I don't subscribe to the idea that anyone is born evil and irredeemable.

Not an Augustinian or a Calvinist Harvey? 

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[–] oldchummer 7 years ago

I don't subscribe to the idea that anyone is born evil and irredeemable.

Didn't suggest that. I was suggesting that even if his parents kept him, he probably would still end up bad. He killed the family cat (as a baby), to be fair he didn't know better, but seeing how that's part of his nature I don't think its too far off to suggest a murderous nature either way.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

You are suggesting that, because you're saying that a newborn baby who was unruly at a few months old would grow up to be a monster no matter what.

Also, how do you know that the newborn didn't simply attack the family cat because he'd been shut in a cage since birth? His parents 'greeted' his arrival with a scream. You can't tell me that the baby did anything to warrant such automatic hate. Just because he was deformed and ugly, does that mean he deserved to be regarded as a total monster?

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[–] oldchummer 7 years ago

Also, how do you know that the newborn didn't simply attack the family cat because he'd been shut in a cage since birth?

Do you know any babies/toddlers that do that? lol

You can't tell me that the baby did anything to warrant such automatic hate. Just because he was deformed and ugly, does that mean he deserved to be regarded as a total monster?

Not exactly, but seeing as Gotham's a bit of a cesspool someone that has more animal-like instincts is probably going to be monstrous its that simple. Its not exactly like Elephant Man where the character is actually innocent.

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[–] oldchummer 7 years ago

You are suggesting that, because you're saying that a newborn baby who was unruly at a few months old would grow up to be a monster no matter what.

Most human babies aren't too violent. Infant animals can be however, and that's what Tim Burton was somewhat going for. In the making of Batman Returns on the dvd the man himself emphasized that the animal motif was integral to the movie. Also seeing how his parents weren't the best of people, if he was raised by a philanthropic or decent family like the Wayne's there'd be little hope I'm guessing (but not much). Being raised by crappy rich people (the cobblepot's) or a circus gang isn't exactly setting Penguin up to be in the right morally.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

This is what I'm saying.

If Cobblepot had been raised properly he might have ended up being a semi-decent human-being. But he was never given a chance, and thirty-three years of hatred, scorn and abandonment clearly placed an enormous strain on him.

Also, remember that the circus gang had a history of kidnapping children. What kind of influence was that on poor Cobblepot?

Anyway, was Gotham so bad? Apart from the Red Triangle Circus Gang the only other violent criminal we see is the mugger/rapist defeated by Catwoman.

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[–] oldchummer 7 years ago

The Penguin isn't necessarily human in this though.

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[–] AndrewGS 7 years ago

Penguin was a poor guy who lived in squalor and wanted to end global warming.

That you need a platform-"Stop global warming, start global cooling!" exchange was so great. Burton and Waters sure depicted the Gothamites as idiots.

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

You're probably right, Audi.

RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time. RIP Robert Vaughn

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[–] gorgsharpy 7 years ago

Penguin is citizen kane.

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[–] oldchummer 7 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DQn3Szi4aA&t=84s

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

Nurture vs Nature. Ever see Trading Places? Your argument reminds me of that movie.

RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time. RIP Robert Vaughn

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[–] oldchummer 7 years ago

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XQ_We9XHvLw/VdHWHThOwuI/AAAAAAAAGBI/WbvhfZaNcbc/s1600/trumpman-e1377634653825.jpg

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[–] thomaspoteet 7 years ago

I always thought Max Shreck's character was more like Trump, esp given when this film came out...almost seems like a parody of Trump.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

I agree. Shreck seems more like Trump, than The Penguin.

I think it's only because of The Penguin running for political office and his predilection for groping women that has caused some people to compare the two.

It's almost as if Trump has transmogrified from Shreck (the ruthless businessman with the New York accent) to The Penguin (the creepy and grabby political candidate).

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[–] thomaspoteet 7 years ago

I can definitely see the groping women comparisons. I remember my dad talking about Max Shreck comparisons to Donald Trump when I saw this film as a child. I'm not sure I knew much about Trump in 1992. I just did some research and found an article from June 24 1992 when the film was released that summer, and some others who saw the film felt that way also. It is a pretty good read and a Christopher Walken interview is always fun to read in his voice. LOL It is crazy Trump is our new president, I've always just thought of him as a celebrity/business man. Democratic/Republican parties aside, I would have choosen someone who is at least a politician and knows how to perform the job functions. I wouldn't want an auto repair person to do surgery on me.

Link:
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/06/24/garden/lunch-with-christopher-walken-new-york-actor-takes-stardom-with-grain-salt.html?pagewanted=all

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

I'd like to see a military coup remove this clown from power. Every other country across the world does it, so why not you 'democrats' in the US?

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

He'll probably be assassinated or something.

RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time. RIP Robert Vaughn

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

You think that's a real possibility cjh8504?

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

I definitely think so, Harve. He's crazy and so are people who dislike him.

RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time. RIP Robert Vaughn

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

But you must dislike him, if you're calling him 'crazy'.

Still, I agree with your overall point. Trump is crazy, and not in a good way, and so are some of the people who dislike him.

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

I'm indifferent towards him as a matter of fact. Couldn't care less one way or the other.

RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time. RIP Robert Vaughn

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

I thought you disliked Trump. If would mean we had something in common. 

Anyway, come what may, Merry Christmas cjh8504. And goodwill to all men, and women.

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

Same to you. Hope you got that new IP poster you wanted. 

RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time. RIP Robert Vaughn

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago



No. But I did get a new Burton book and a book on the Batman TV show.

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

I got some wrestling dvds, a season of Perry Mason, a Star Trek TNG adult coloring book, a Michael Myers figure, TMNT III dvd, etc.

RIP Gene Wilder. One of the funniest people of all time. RIP Robert Vaughn

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

No Batman orientated stuff?

I wish someone would do a new retrospective book on Batman '89 and Batman Returns. Or better yet, two separate books.

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

I have no need for Batman stuff. I watched Returns, though last week.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. 2016 is the worst!

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

Every day?

What makes Returns such a Christmassy film cjh8504? Which character best encapsulates the season for you?

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[–] cjh8504 7 years ago

No, not every day. Just once. The snow, and setting. No character. Just everything.

RIP Gene Wilder. RIP Robert Vaughn. RIP Carrie Fisher. 2016 is the worst!

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[–] Nike316 7 years ago

I think an assassination is definitely possible. I mean, if people aren't beating up his supporters or accusing him of rape, they're shooting lookalikes of him. He's already the least liked President in history, and I doubt he's gonna change enough people's minds about him, before someone tries him.

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[–] jrock2310 7 years ago

I give him 18 months. he doesn't know what he's got himself into. he got into the race as a publicity stunt to get his face out there. he couldn't have honestly thought he would pick up the traction that he did. he said himself long before he began his campaign about how he thought it would help his profile and that he figured many people wouldn't take him as a serious candidate.
he's not going to like anything about holding office. trump thinks winning the election means he became king of the world. he doesn't know anything about diplomacy (foreign or domestic), trade, global economics, education, national defense, etc...

he knows when given an inheritance, he can manage to build a couple of towers in NY. conversely, he knows how to bank-roll 4x's over. default on millions/billions of dollars in loans. he knows how to peddle ponzi schemes. how to foreclose on an airlines, casinos and golf courses. how to stiff employers, how to defraud the US by not paying taxes probably in his entire adult life... I can go on and on and on.

(unfortunately) mike pence will be the president inside 2 yrs. trump won't like living in washinton dc, in the white house being told what to do, where to go, to whom to meet with, whom to shake hands with, who to talk to, etc...
trump has never had to answer to anyone in his life except the US gov which kept him out of jail so he could pay off his insurmountable debts. hence: the apprentice TV show - which he now owns a stake in. having his name licensed out everywhere. those were merely tactics created in efforts to pay off his loans/debts. the government realized that trump was worth more outside of prison, so he could work off his debt. that is the ONLY reason he is not in jail.

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[–] AndrewGS 7 years ago

I'd like to see a military coup remove this clown from power.

I would hope you and others would care more about preserving democracy and avoiding dictatorship than removing one leader.

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[–] pioneergrrrl 7 years ago

It is--Rich tycoon at top of tower with equally nasty son in training

Hates women except as objects.

Thinks he can financially coerce people into his bidding.

Penguin would be close to Sanders:

Mystery character who came out of "no where", entranced everybody with a media blitz suddenly running for an office and then turned out to be not so flawless. Sanders did horrible in debates and kept repeating the same lines. He had a cult following of people who were not even from Vermont who had never heard of him before--who suddenly had to have him.

This would include all those young people...in the movie there is a line where the penguin is a little too appreciative of his young followers. The young followers know nothing about him or his actual positions/intentions except that he is the coolest role model'.''

Penguin (and Sanders) have a meltdown when they realize they will not get office. They deceive their followers in clever propaganda.

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

I think that's pretty unfair on Sanders, especially as most of his supporters backed Hillary on his urging, and many analyses have found that he'd have scored a better chance of winning against Trump than Hillary.

Plus, Max's volunteers seemed to be WASPy conservatives. We don't really see that type in elections anymore. In this election most Trump volunteers tended to be poor redneck types rather than overprivileged college kids, but I think the volunteers in Batman Returns were based on Young Republicans, of the type who would have rallied for Nixon and Reagan, and even Goldwater back when Hillary supported him. Notice that they were all white and blond(e) and dressed like preppies.

By the way, neoliberalism is dead. This election proved that. We now need a form of politics that embraces feminism, civil rights and LGBT rights, as well as standing up for the poor, working-class and socioeconomically marginalised.

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[–] pioneergrrrl 7 years ago

I would not say most---there were still people who opposed Hillary who would not listen to him---ironically because he had gotten them so riled up about change and revolution.

I happened to have supported Hillary all along...but I can see where the 'liberation of...." would readily transpose

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[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 7 years ago

I wanted Hillary to win too, and the first female President would have been awesome, but ultimately it came to a choice between two pretty rotten candidates, admittedly one who was far worse than the other (and yes, I do mean to say the 'winner' was far worse).

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