MovieChat Forums > Alien³ (1992) Discussion > What exactly is wrong overall with the A...

What exactly is wrong overall with the Alien series of films, and why don't the directors and writers seem to be able to


...do the world's greatest movie monster any justice these days?

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/efe9mo/what_exactly_is_wrong_overall_with_the_alien/

Alien [1979]: Obviously a masterpiece of a film, and I think that the tense pacing and sparse use of the alien is what made it all so very effective. Unfortunately, the people who created and worked on this film seem to have been a 'capturing lightning in a bottle' situation, and was a dream team that would be almost impossible to replicate on any new film. From H.R. Giger's masterful nightmare creations to Ridley Scott's powerfully atmospheric and claustrophobic direction, the perfect cast, and even the writers Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett, everyone was a the absolute top of their game on this singular cinematic achievement.

Aliens [1986]: This is a great film, and please understand that it will always hold a place in my heart, but James Cameron tampered with and altered the formula of what made the original Alien so powerful and resonant, and I think that the series paid for this ever since. Alien is a tense and suspenseful horror movie, and Aliens is an outright blockbuster action film that reduces the titular creature to mere cannon fodder. To alter the DNA of the original monster so much in order to create something more original from the first film seems to have confused the overall tone of the series from this point forward.

Alien 3 [1992]: As many fans of Alien already know, this is where everything completely fell apart for the franchise, but why? Other than studio interference and lack of a working script something else was going on here as well. Alien 3 seems to have wanted to bridge the gap between the feel of the first two films: it wanted the creature to be a singular and more frightening creature again, but also tried to instill a sense of action by making the alien a speed-based predator, which definitely didn't work out quite well. This film is also where it becomes apparent that directors and creative teams are now only interested in creating a new vision for the creature every time, which only has the effect of reducing its effectiveness even further.

Alien Resurrection [1997]: Although it has a few fans, this travesty of a film is where the Alien franchise ran completely off the rails. This is what happens when the first three films of a series vary so wildly in tone that no one even knows what to do with the Alien any more; unfortunately, here is where tone-deaf satire was attempted and pretty much reduced the series to being a joke and killed interest. Why can't directors and creative teams simply pay homage to the first film and respect the tone and pacing of it? A smaller or even lower budget Alien film with practical effects and a focused story on believable characters could easily make a worthwhile film in the series, and it baffles me as to why this isn't attempted or even considered.

Prometheus [2012]: And all that could have been... here, we see Ridley Scott come back to set things right again, the original director of the masterpiece of Alien, and what does he do? He subverts nearly every expectation possible and does much to ruin the original mystery of the creature, and even strip-mines and retcons the fossilized space jockey that was originally transporting the alien in the first place. But why? These are answers to questions that no one was asking or even wanted answered, and part of the dark and timeless allure of the alien was in not knowing its origins or exactly what it was. The alien is most effective and unsettling when it is alien, not vivisected to the point of having no mystery. To retcon the original space jockey, which was originally created as an elephantine-in-appearance hyper-advanced unknown alien species, into the planet-seeding 'space jockey', was ultimately a mildly-interesting diversion. All of this is bad enough, but to not even have the alien itself show up is ultimately a disappointing betrayal to fans.

Alien Covenant [2017]: If Prometheus was mildly interesting with the questions that it raised, Alien Covenant is the point where all hope for the franchise is practically lost. This is a movie that tries to do so much and go in so many directions that of course it fails at nearly everything. It tries to be a horror movie, but fails because it then tries to go in the direction of action. It tries to return to being an Alien movie, but fails because they show the creature on the outside of a ship running around in broad daylight, where it is the least possibly effective it could be in scaring anyone. Part of this lackluster entry in the franchise might not be Ridley Scott's fault, because the rumor has it that he wanted to make 'Prometheus 2' and go to the 'paradise' home world of the Engineers, but 20th Century Fox wanted a movie that focused on the alien instead. Ridley obviously wasn't interested, so Alien Covenant is what we got instead.

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I wish I could chime in, but I have refused to watch anything after the first two.

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I think that's a pretty good summation of what happened - although I haven't watched Covenant, so I can't speak to its quality or lack thereof.

Alien was a masterwork of horror, and sci-fi, and it perfectly blended the two genres. It tells a complete story. It has compelling, interesting, and relatable characters. The whole world feels lived-in and real.

Most importantly: it's a visual essay on horror. What are the most common fears of mankind? The unknown and "the Other", the dark, sex, death, monsters, loneliness, betrayal...those are all contained within Alien and within the xenomorph itself (for the most part). The visual evokes this stuff. It takes fear of sex in particular to a whole new level with the rape, childbirth metaphors. It makes you feel claustrophobic, alone, and afraid. It shows you what the other can really look like, and even shows what happens when we are not unified: the other is us (a.k.a., the android, "mother", and the Waylan-Yutani Corporation). All of our primal fears, our fears of civilisation AND the wild from whence we came - all contained here.

None of this is spoken. None of it is spelled out condescendingly to the audience. It's all conveyed through atmosphere, visuals, design, attitude, and unfolding plot. The film is flat-out brilliant.

Aliens is a A-grade action movie. Nothing more or less. It reduces the treatise on horror into a shoot-em-up. It's well-done, but that's it. It retains a *bit* of the motherhood/female themes from the first film by using Ripley and an Alien Queen as the protagonist and antagonist, but that's it.

Alien 3 recycles the first one, but without understanding it, so it just winds up being a monster movie or a kind of slasher picture in a space monastery and/or prison. Definitely executive meddling here.

Resurrection I think had potential but wasted it.

Prometheus was better than people thought it was, but only because people thought it was a dumpster fire. It's not, it's just a little meandering.

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This thing should have "dishonourably mentioned" the AvP series. Great Scott, that series is lamentable! It takes the dumb action premise of Predator and combines it with the acceptably entertaining action schlock of Aliens, removes any trace of originality or deep themes, and then mangles the xenomorphs so badly as to turn them into easily-disposed shock troops who can barely hold out against the almighty predators. Granted, Aliens kinda "shock trooped" the xenomorphs already, but regardless of where this practice started, it was a dumb idea.

Each alien should be a demon - a nigh-unstoppable nightmare come alive. I know it doesn't like fire, but other than that, those things should be near-indestructible. I don't think bullets should get through their carapaces. I think they should be hard to swat down, and if you do, you get splashed with acid blood.

Screw AvP.

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How can one show Alien 3 never happened?

Simple. It was a dream. Newt, Ripley, and Hicks are still alive. Queen takes Bishop still happened, but she is outside the ship and not inside.

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Alien³ went astray with studio interference and the star of the series having too much power, if they wanted to have a horror film for Alien³ but without the family dynamic of Ripley, Hicks and Newt, why not of had Alien³ with a complete new cast, the Giger Aliens were always the draw not Sigourney Weaver.

I’m not trying to dismiss how awesome Weaver was in the Alien movies but this is one avenue they could have gone whilst keeping the survivors of Aliens alive. Killing off Hicks and the child at the start of Alien³ pissed off so many fans of Aliens, Alien³ never stood a chance, whilst no one had empathy for the prisoners who died, and staging it in a monastery as was originally planned would have worked so much better. People may have cared.

I also wonder if the Predator series losing its star, with Predator 2 in 1990 not having the same amount of success influenced them in hanging onto Ripley for two more movies.

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I stopped reading after "why not of had".

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I agree with your assessment, except for ALIENS. Cameron stayed true to the mythos created in the first film, then took it in a logical direction. Yes, the movie does have more action, but it also features horror, suspense, and a good dollop of sci-fi. People who call ALIENS an action movie have apparently forgotten about the slow-burn buildup. It’s nearly an hour before it begins to hit the fan. Even after the initial battle with the xenomorphs, there are plenty of quiet, albeit still tense, moments.

A big part of the reason ALIEN3 fell apart is it went backwards. We’ve already seen what one of these things can do. Plus, having Ripley “infected” took ALL the suspense out of the movie. She’s the character we care about, but she’s in no danger from the marauding xenomorph. There’s no reason to care or get emotionally involved in the story.

I appreciate your well thought out comments.

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A big part of the reason ALIEN3 fell apart is it went backwards.

Don't agree at all. It just didn't go forwards in the manner that those who loved Aliens wanted it to.
There are plenty of Alien fans who think Cameron watered the Alien down and hated what he did with it. Over the years on the message boards there have been just as many Aliens haters as Alien3 haters. But you know what? You are never going to please everybody.
Aliens used to be my favourite strongly followed by Alien. I always felt Alien3 was incomplete. Then the extended cut came out . My favourite is Alien now as I've come to appreciate it more over the years. It is followed by Alien3 (extended cut) which I now prefer (only just) to Aliens. I just feel that Aliens is basically a typical 80's movie whereas I feel the first and third are not typical of their decades.
That's not to say I don't like Aliens, I do. I also feel Cameron advanced/evolved the mythos of the Alien. But comparing each film in this manner will always bring about argument and often as not name calling. It boils down to different tastes is all.

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I really hate Alien 3 so much. A lot of it is because it is, as strangenstein pointed out, a move backward compared to Aliens. Had it come out after the first Alien then I might have been more forgiving to Alien 3, but even the assembly cut was too long, and I didn't care one iota for ANY of the characters in that punk-grunge prison. It was the epitome of stepping backward in terms of HOW we expected people to deal with xenomorphs (viz., exploding rounds, shotguns, smart guns, or go home).

As he rightly points out, we already KNOW what one of these things can do on its own. We saw how an army of them can take out elite marines like a warm knife through butter.

The next logical progression either should have been the exploration of the Engineers or how the Aliens deal with Predators, albeit in a strictly logical fashion of these diverging species' ecosystems clashing together.

There's a fantastic sci-fi story to tell in all of that, but Hollywood has no interest in intelligent sci-fi films, and no director seems to be able to competently put together a film that contains non-schlocky action to make the efforts worthwhile.

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And there lies the problem.
They have done AvP and a story about the engineers (made by Ridley Scott himself). The writers can't seem to get it right for the audience.
If the marines failed then it was down to their own false sense of superiority and their stupidity. Logically the next step when faced with an Alien outbreak would be to nuke the site from orbit. Wouldn't be much of a movie though.

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If the marines failed then it was down to their own false sense of superiority and their stupidity.


Now that you mention it... lol yup.

Logically the next step when faced with an Alien outbreak would be to nuke the site from orbit. Wouldn't be much of a movie though.


Actually, that would make for a fantastic film, especially if the Predators see it as an opportunity to hunt, humans just want to wipe the slate clean, and the Engineers are giddy to see their creations erase themselves from the galaxy for them.

A simple plot is that a xenomorph outbreak has taken place and human command want to nuke the site from orbit, so Predators swoop in and blast the satellite/ship/payload delivery system out of orbit because they want to maintain the infested site for hunting purposes. What do the humans do now?

You could take a story like that 1,000 different ways:
1) Make it like Dr. Strangelove and showcase the deliberations and strategies command goes through to rectify the matter (political sci-fi drama).
2) Show it from the perspective of the civilians trying to survive the infestation (horror movie style).
3) From the perspective of the marines trying to save/kill civilians to contain the infestation (sci-fi military action film).
4) From the Predators perspective, constantly thwarting humans' effort to clean the infestation site while attempting to operate in a clandestine fashion to hunt (espionage sci-fi thriller).

But as we've established, even a simple plot like that would be duly ruined by the writers/producers/director(s)/suits in Hollyweird.

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I think Alien 3 was excellent... i liked the way it brought back the sense of hoplessness from the first movie... Went against the "team/family" aspect of Aliens... Charles Dance was brilliant in it as well...

It's not a perfect movie, by any means, but was a worthwhile addition to the series...

I'm not a precious about the series as many of the fans... I think by the time Aliens was made, it's all open game to play with the lore...

I liked Prometheus... I thought it was thrilling, thought provoking and highly entertaining... Even Alien Covenant was a solid addition...

The Alien movie i didn't think added anything useful and in fact seems out of place is Alien Resurrection... it took the worst themes of the previous movies (ripley focused, team/family oriented, feel good, etc...) and was a bit silly... Also, from an aesthetic point of view, the Ridley Alien movies tower above the others, but Fincher and Cameron's movies are not bad by any means...

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I have the feeling that Alien 3 wanted to be something different - but it lost its way somewhere along the story.

It has a lot more world building - you have all those convicts wrapped in an oddly functional system, you have their oddly shaped religious attitude, each of them has somewhat distinctive features, their world is a literal prison, and they even find a place for the Alien in their reality: it's the dragon.

It also has a very distinctive tone - moody and ghostly industrial in the beginning, then a bit medieval, it almost reminded me of The Name of the Rose in the first part.

It also has the mysterious doctor/convict, Clemens Who Seems to See Through Things

It almost looked like a whole new angle on the Alien story: Alien 1 had the cold, sweaty body horror and isolation, Alien 2 had the thrills curses and shoot-outs, and Alien 3 COULD have had the apocalyptic/mythical gloom.

...Except it didn't.
The religious angle gets lost entirely along the way - I really would have liked to see how a community of alienated religious freaks react to an unspeakable demon, but after Golic's reaction and containment everything reverts to the already standard "survive xenomorph against all odds" tone.

The moodiness comes back a little in the end, in the shape of labyrinthine entrapment, but we'd been missing it for a good hour by that point.

Clemens dies way, way too soon (remember Hicks? who made it to the end of the movie?). What was the point of his "mysterious past", of his connection to Ripley? All down the drain.

And the convicts' personalities were too thin. The final chase scene was fantastic, but the convicts became too suddenly efficient for my taste. They still freaked out and "improvised" :), but overall they were pretty brave and in synch. I would have liked to see them more dysfunctional...

Maybe Alien 3 tried to bring together elements that did not belong together no matter what, and that's it why it failed to be as unique as it could have been...

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"It also has a very distinctive tone - moody and ghostly industrial in the beginning, then a bit medieval, it almost reminded me of The Name of the Rose in the first part."

You may already be aware, but there were several scripts for Alien 3, one of which was set on a monastery-like satellite populated by anti-tech monks. Some of the features showed up in the finished product, along with parts from the other scripts.

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Ha! No I wasn't aware, thanks a lot for the info! I do wish they had gone along with it...
I've seen something like this before, but in Ridley Scott movies: the background of the story has a story to tell of its own.

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You may already be aware, but there were several scripts for Alien 3, one of which was set on a monastery-like satellite populated by anti-tech monks. Some of the features showed up in the finished product, along with parts from the other scripts.
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[–] darkfrances (23) 3 days ago

Ha! No I wasn't aware, thanks a lot for the info! I do wish they had gone along with it...
Here, here! I think that would have made for a much more interesting movie than what we got.
Here's a link that covers Vincent Ward's original idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_3#Start-up_with_Vincent_Ward

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Many years later - and thanks so much for the link, YES that's the movie I would have wanted to see! A moving platform in a library?! Soooo much Name of the Rose...

(incidentally, reading the Wikipedia info in your link also made me realise that David Fincher had made all them cool videoclips before going into movies - and I actually remember all of them, I just hadn't connected the dots).

Now I need to hunt down Vincent Ward.

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I have the feeling that Alien 3 wanted to be something different - but it lost its way somewhere along the story.

It has a lot more world building - you have all those convicts wrapped in an oddly functional system, you have their oddly shaped religious attitude, each of them has somewhat distinctive features, their world is a literal prison, and they even find a place for the Alien in their reality: it's the dragon.

It also has a very distinctive tone - moody and ghostly industrial in the beginning, then a bit medieval, it almost reminded me of The Name of the Rose in the first part.

It also has the mysterious doctor/convict, Clemens Who Seems to See Through Things

It almost looked like a whole new angle on the Alien story: Alien 1 had the cold, sweaty body horror and isolation, Alien 2 had the thrills curses and shoot-outs, and Alien 3 COULD have had the apocalyptic/mythical gloom.
...Except it didn't.
The religious angle gets lost entirely along the way....The moodiness comes back a little in the end, in the shape of labyrinthine entrapment, but we'd been missing it for a good hour by that point....Clemens dies way, way too soon....And the convicts' personalities were too thin....Maybe Alien 3 tried to bring together elements that did not belong together no matter what, and that's it why it failed to be as unique as it could have been...
I totally agree with EVERYTHING you said darkfrances! The best analysis and assessment of Alien 3 I've ever read!

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That's - awfully kind, thanks!

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