What does Leno do that's so bad?


I barely watch Leno, but I've heard some negative things about him. What is it exactly that makes his show get a 4/10?

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I don't think it's his show that's causing the negative ratings so much as it is the haters who blame him for other things. For instance, the Letterman fans don't like him because they were disappointed NBC chose Jay over Dave to replace Carson over 20 years ago. Team CoCo doesn't like him because of the "Tonight Show" debacle 4 years ago wheN NBC replaced Jay with Conan, then lost faith in Conan and asked Jay to come back. Jay never wanted to leave in the first place, but still they condemn him for the failure of NBC's scheme. Add to that people who just want to join a big hate pile on (whether they understand the facts of the case or not) and the result is alot of IMDb users putting the show down for reasons other than the quality of the writing and performing.

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I don't think it's his show that's causing the negative ratings so much as it is the haters who blame him for other things. For instance, the Letterman fans don't like him because they were disappointed NBC chose Jay over Dave to replace Carson over 20 years ago. Team CoCo doesn't like him because of the "Tonight Show" debacle 4 years ago wheN NBC replaced Jay with Conan, then lost faith in Conan and asked Jay to come back. Jay never wanted to leave in the first place, but still they condemn him for the failure of NBC's scheme. Add to that people who just want to join a big hate pile on (whether they understand the facts of the case or not) and the result is alot of IMDb users putting the show down for reasons other than the quality of the writing and performing.



^^This.

"I am the ultimate badass, you do not wanna `*beep*` wit me!"- Hudson in Aliens.

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Excellent post, a_l_i_e_n. Agree 100%.

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Yes, it has nothing to do with the show itself as it was actually great. The people voting him down have never seen the show but the hate the person.

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I'm aware I sound like a broken record on these boards, but I want to answer the question as thoroughly as possible.

Leno's critics like to point out various perceived immoral or unprofessional behavior he exhibited during the two transition periods.

During the first transition, the two things his critics like to mention are when he hid in a closet to eavesdrop during an NBC meeting, and when his manager planted a false story in the newspaper implying that NBC was pushing Carson off Tonight to make room for Leno. Jay was unaware his manager did this, and when he found out, he fired her and has represented himself ever since. However, her actions continue to haunt him whenever the exact question you asked comes up.

During the second transition, something Leno was criticized for was the fact that, despite NBC's firing of him from The Tonight Show even though he was still #1 in the ratings, he chose to stick with that exact company that fired him instead of doing what Dave did and go to another network to try to compete with the executives who fired him. His critics say it appeared as though he was hanging around NBC waiting for Conan to fail so that he could get offered The Tonight Show back (the resentment lying in the notion that he'd rather stick it to a fellow late-night host than the network executives, as well as a perceived pathetic attempt to cling onto the only thing he seems to value in life, The Tonight Show, even after losing it). He has also been criticized for a monologue he delivered on his show in 2004 promising his retirement in 2009 and a smooth transition to Conan O'Brien.

With the advent of the internet and social media, the second late-night conflict was much more of a publicity nightmare for all parties involved than the first one was. The general consensus is that the media ultimately portrayed Conan as the good guy who got back-stabbed by NBC and Leno, NBC executives as the incompetent businessmen who screwed up late-night television again (NBC CEO Jeff Zucker later revealed to have received death threats during this time period; he was fired shortly thereafter), and Leno as the evil manipulator who will do whatever it takes to screw everyone out of The Tonight Show. Now where exactly does the truth actually lie? It's hard to tell. The media likes to exaggerate and make things very "black and white." Leno's perceived "evilness" most likely wasn't nearly as extreme as the media would have led you to believe. But there had to be a bad guy to make this a good story, and Leno got stuck with that label. Probably because of his aforementioned history during the first transition.

Alien and I have discussed this to death, and I personally think we both make very valid points. Our verbal spars are all over these boards. Ultimately, there's no right or wrong answer. Usually, the one thing everyone agrees on is that NBC is run very poorly and it's their executives who contribute the most to these conflicts.

I don't think it's his show that's causing the negative ratings so much as it is the haters who blame him for other things...and the result is alot of IMDb users putting the show down for reasons other than the quality of the writing and performing.


I think it's both. Personally, aside from all of the above, I also find him to be rather unfunny and not very talented. I think his comedy is very bland, safe, and predictable. I'd rather see someone take chances with their art, even if it risks offending someone. Any time I have watched Leno's show, with the exception of his monologue, it seems to me like he and the writing staff put in the least amount of work out of all the late-night shows (i.e. a lot of jokes are taken from third-party sources: his two signature bits, Headlines and Jaywalking, for example, require no comedic ability to write; they are simply a compilation of articles and regular citizens on the street, respectively). I prefer Dave's randomness and Conan's goofiness. They're different and unique. But that's just me. Art (and comedy in particular) is so subjective. I'm also clearly in a minority because Jay is still #1 in the ratings.

Side Note: To go back to the original question, Leno has also been accused of stealing comedy bits, which is a BIG no-no in the comedy world (ask Dane Cook about that). His "Headlines" bit is strikingly similar to Dave's "Small Town News" bit and his "Jaywalking" bit is strikingly similar to a bit Howard Stern used to do on his radio program. Howard Stern also accuses Leno of going behind his back to persuade John Melendez (who then worked for Stern) to come be his announcer. Still, Leno's supporters have defended him on this subject. For example, a lot of comedy bits have been done in some form or another for many years...It's not like Dave's "Small Town News" was the first time anyone laughed at the news. "Stealing" is a tricky term to define in comedy.



R.I.P. Leslie Nielsen
1926-2010

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It's mostly brainless idiotic Coco fans who smeared Leno with low ratings because that goofball Conan couldn't tell a decent joke if his life depended on it!

Jay is DA MAN! DA KING!

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Since you mentioned you are not well acquainted with Jay and his show, I offer this broadened view of the controversies listed in the post above.

During the first transition, the two things his critics like to mention are when he hid in a closet to eavesdrop during an NBC meeting,

NBC talked Jay out of going to CBS, where he could've had his own show at 11:30. They did this with a contractual guarantee that he would inherit The Tonight Show when Johnny Carson was ready to retire. However, when that time came and Dave Letterman threatened to leave, too, NBC decided to give the show to Dave. Outraged by this betrayal and waste of precious time he could've spent building a future at CBS, Jay decided to turn the tables on NBC by ducking into a maintenance room to listen to a conference call among the very people who'd double crossed him. He did this to try and find out what they were actually planning to do about him and the next 20+ years of his professional life. Further, there's no evidence what he learned from that call actually got Jay The Tonight Show. Anyways, Letterman took a pass and went CBS instead, and that's basically how Jay got the show.


and when his manager planted a false story in the newspaper implying that NBC was pushing Carson off Tonight to make room for Leno. Jay was unaware his manager did this, and when he found out, he fired her and has represented himself ever since. However, her actions continue to haunt him whenever the exact question you asked comes up.

NBC was at least considering dropping Johnny; he was losing alot of younger viewers to Arsenio Hall. However, no actual plan was implemented to remove him, and Carson (probably sensing, at 67, that he'd had his day) chose to retire. Drebin is quite correct that Jay does, indeed, appear to live under the curse of what his ill-tempered and ethically-challenged manager pulled behind his back.

During the second transition, something Leno was criticized for was the fact that, despite NBC's firing of him from The Tonight Show even though he was still #1 in the ratings, he chose to stick with that exact company that fired him instead of doing what Dave did and go to another network to try to compete with the executives who fired him.

It should also be noted that Conan O'Brien himself rejected a 20 million dollar offer to jump to FOX in 2001. ABC was interested in having Jay come there, but a Jay Leno show at 11:35 on ABC would've necessatated bumping Kimmel's show later into the night, and possibly bumping or cancelling the long-running news show, Nightline. Clearly, no matter what his detractors felt he should've done, there were hitches and potential risks.

His critics

These would principally be David Letterman, who's held a grudge against Jay for 20 years over NBC's decision to pass him over as host of The Tonight Show, and Howard Stern, a radio shock jock and longtime Letterman friend whose accusations against Jay have been labelled as "over-the-top"; and sometimes appear to be nothing more than idle speculation without proof to back it up. Further, Howard actually told Jay in an interview that NBC was smart to have hired him, then years later kind of contradicted himself when he told Dave Letterman "Jay snatched the Tonight Show from you".


say it appeared as though he was hanging around NBC waiting for Conan to fail so that he could get offered The Tonight Show back
(the resentment lying in the notion that he'd rather stick it to a fellow late-night host than the network executives,

Not sure what Drebin means here by sticking it to a fellow late-night host. It almost sounds like a suggestion that Jay made his own 10pm show fail in order to get his old job back, a theory that author of The War For Late Night Bill Carter has publically dismissed as unlikely.


as well as a perceived pathetic attempt to cling onto the only thing he seems to value in life, The Tonight Show, even after losing it).

I don't know how Drebin feels qualified to say with any certainty that The Tonight Show is the only thing Jay Leno values in life. Wonder if he's aware of all of Jay's charitable works over the years?


He has also been criticized for a monologue he delivered on his show in 2004 promising his retirement in 2009 and a smooth transition to Conan O'Brien.

The salient point that's often skipped over when mention is made of this announcement is that Jay was actually fired from The Tonight Show by NBC in order to keep Conan with the network. Announcing this fact would almost certainly have caused great embarrassment to NBC (with whom Jay hoped to be able to work with as he completed the last 5 years of his contract), and could potentially have made Conan look like an ambitious guy who wanted Jay out his way. Also, Jay did not have the power to hand the show over to anybody because it belongs to NBC. But some haters to this day think Jay wanted to retire, and then just changed his mind. This could not be further from the truth. Jay's comments regarding his eventual departure was his attempt to maintain an accepting and cheerful demeanour over a business decision that wasn't benefiting him at all.

Usually, the one thing everyone agrees on is that NBC is run very poorly and it's their executives who contribute the most to these conflicts.

I do agree with Drebin that the excutives at NBC (particularly Mr. Zucker, and Mr. let's-bump-The Tonight Show-to-12:05 Gastin are primarily responsible for what is perhaps the biggest blunder in television history. It failed economically, hurt both Conan and Jay professionally and personally, and the sad thing is most people who were so angry about this don't even know the names Zucker and Gastin. They just lazily pin the blame entirely on the guy with the big chin, even though Jay's the one who actually got screwed first.



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I don't think it's his show that's causing the negative ratings so much as it is the haters who blame him for other things...and the result is alot of IMDb users putting the show down for reasons other than the quality of the writing and performing.
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I think it's both. Personally, aside from all of the above, I also find him to be rather unfunny and not very talented. I think his comedy is very bland, safe, and predictable. I'd rather see someone take chances with their art, even if it risks offending someone.

I never hear an example of this risk-taking style of comedy other comedians favour that Jay would not.


Any time I have watched Leno's show, with the exception of his monologue, it seems to me like he and the writing staff put in the least amount of work out of all the late-night shows (i.e. a lot of jokes are taken from third-party sources: his two signature bits, Headlines and Jaywalking, for example, require no comedic ability to write; they are simply a compilation of articles and regular citizens on the street, respectively).

Jimmy Kimmel likes to go out on the street, too and ask people things like what did you think of the Oscars; when they haven't been broadcast yet, or do you like the new Pope; when Benedict's successor had not yet been chosen. It's very much like Jay Walking. Dave would sometimes play old records by unlikely singers such as Leonard Nimoy. That doesn't take a lot of writing on his part either.


Side Note: To go back to the original question, Leno has also been accused of stealing comedy bits,

So, ironically, is Howard Stern, one of Jay's biggest critics.

His Headlines bit is strikingly similar to Dave's Small Town News bit

They both use newspapers for material. Again, something that (as Drebin points out) requires little comedic ability to write. Dave seems to go for odd stories in these small town venues, wheras Jay presents funny misprints and ironic placement of words like wedding announcements for couples with uncomfortable last names like: BUTT & DICK Wedding Announced. Anyways, Dave doesn't hold a patent on looking to the fourth estate for comedy material. In fact, both Steve Allen and Mort Saul were doing it years before Jay and Dave had talk shows.


Howard Stern also accuses Leno of going behind his back to persuade John Melendez (who then worked for Stern) to come be his announcer. Still, Leno's supporters have defended him on this subject.

It's the employee, not his boss, who makes the decision about whether or not to move to a new job. Besides, it was a good opportunity for Melendez, so why deny him a chance for advancement? Anyways, it's the least Howard could do after all the money he's probably made bashing Jay over the years. Speaking of going behind people's backs, nobody seems to mind that Conan never went to Jay directly to see how he felt about the idea of stepping aside. He let NBC take care of that so he could get what he wanted: Jay's job.






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This is Howard doing "The Tonight Show With Jay Leno" in 2000.


http://youtu.be/brp0FqSM-LI


Funny how he doesn't use this as an opportunity to bring up those allegations that Jay supposedly steals his material. Would appear he prefers not to attack Jay to his face (especially when Jay's giving Howard a chance to promote something).

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Thank you, Alien.

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My pleasure.

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Leno, from the beginning, is not the problem with Leno's show. The lame bits/sketches are. Leno doesn't write the lame bits. He just participates in them. He's the hired bass player in the band after the original guy died. He always will be.

"I said no camels, that's five camels, can't you count?"

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Yes, there are some Letterman and Conan fans who hate Jay because of that but for the most part, it's because he is in fact an unfunny, spoiled old fart who thinks that by sticking his chin out, delivering groand-worthy puns, taking predictable TV clips, finding the dullest people to interview and even cursing on rare occasions (despite claiming it's a lazy way to tell a joke) all for ratings and to keep his pathetic late night gig.

Good riddance, Jay!

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Do I sense some bitterness?

Jay is a fantastic comic who, like other comedians, has found his niche. Some people thought Bob Hope was too bland and vanilla, while others thought George Carlin and Richard Pryor were too vulgar. Yet, all three thrived in the comedy world.

Jay thrives on puns and "safe" double entendres. As for his guests, they are celebrities but they're also unusual people like national bird-calling champions or funny old people like the Fruitcake Lady. This is what far more people wanted from Leno than from Letterman.

But, as today's television arena shows, there is plenty of room for everybody. I loved Johnny Carson but the main reason he had 42 million people watch his farewell was because most of them had one real choice for late night viewing and that was Carson. Today, there are more than 1000 channels on a good cable or satellite TV package.

Ironically, I have to wonder about a lot of the negative commenters here. I doubt they were regular watchers of Jay Leno because if they hated the show, why would hey continue to watch?

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Ironically, I have to wonder about a lot of the negative commenters here. I doubt they were regular watchers of Jay Leno because if they hated the show, why would hey continue to watch?



From reading their comments and talking to many of them over the last few years I find that the majority turn out to be:

[a] Howard Stern fans, and Howard's made a lot of money off of his "I-hate-Jay" act- and I think it is mostly an act;

[b] Team CoCo people who blame Jay completely for the "Tonight Show Debacle" when the written history quite clearly shows that Conan was hardly blameless, and that, in the long run, it was mostly due to the botched decisions made by NBC;

and

[c] people who base their opinions on the comments of angry but sometimes totally uninformed posters and so they just join the pile on.


Mind you, there are a few who are intimately acquainted with Jay's career and misadventures and still come away disliking him which is their right, of course. But, I do find the most are either listening to the claims of troublemakers, or they approach it with an extremely biased attitude- mixed with a certain naivety about how show business works- that allows them to hate Jay Leno. Some of them even seem like they would be disappointed if they couldn't loathe him.

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Leno's TS has a 5.3 rating not a 4. It deserves close to a 10 since it was the BEST late night show EVER thanks to the strength of Jay's monologue!

Jesus NEVER existed! He is Judeo Christian MYTH!

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Because bitter Coco fans still think Leno was the mastermind behind this elaborate conspiracy to get O'Brien fired from NBC.

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Mean. He's just plain mean to his guests. Just horrible.

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I never thought anything bad about Leno, I just didn't think he was all that funny. Obviously a lot of people do though, he had the highest ratings of late night shows most of the time.

That being said, I don't think Jimmy Fallon will be able to generate the same ratings as Leno - he's just too goofy. But its still a win for NBC because Fallon has a smaller salary, smaller band, smaller set - they save money even if less people watch.


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LoBo_77018 (Wed Feb 26 2014 06:55:31)
I never thought anything bad about Leno, I just didn't think he was all that funny. Obviously a lot of people do though, he had the highest ratings of late night shows most of the time.

That being said, I don't think Jimmy Fallon will be able to generate the same ratings as Leno - he's just too goofy. But its still a win for NBC because Fallon has a smaller salary, smaller band, smaller set - they save money even if less people watch.
It's not only about the money, it's about the ratings. Higher ratings means more money and better chance at getting people to watch others shows (TV spots to promo them). More viewers on the network means more money. (Just to mention this, NBC is a failing network as it is because the execs keep canceling shows left and right, which turns people away from giving new shows a chance, which in turn brings in low ratings, at which point NBC execs cancel the shows, under the mistaken belief that the show is the cause of the low ratings, not realizing that it's their stupid trigger finger causing people to stay away.) So, higher ratings (ie more viewers) = more money and better chance of getting interest in an NBC show = more viewers for others shows = more income. I guess that in a way, it is all about the money, but to get more money, they need the better ratings.

As for your not liking him, I appreciate your acknowledgement of how things really are. You don't think he's funny, but you know that he must be (for others). Usually people say that he sucks or whatever else, as if his high ratings don't exist.

About Fallon, I have a good feeling about him. Originally, when he started hosting Late Night, I thought he wouldn't make it as host of that. But over the years, he has developed the necessary skills to be a worthy host and the way he handled the first week has me confident that he has what it takes to be successful. I don't know how much control he has over the show overall (I can only imagine that he has some final say-so on what happens), but his ability to handle the hosting position (that we see on TV) is commendable. Unlike Conan, I believe the personality and humor style he brought in are mature without seeming 'old'.

With Conan, some of the humor seemed inappropriate for the show (fine for Late Night but not for The Tonight Show) and it was almost like watching a grown kid trying to get laughs by acting like a child. Like the Masturbating Bear and things similar to it. You'd expect that from a teenager or very young adult, and again is fine on Late Night, but from the host of a highly respected talk show? It's not the fact that it was sexual in nature, it's how it was "in your face." With Leno, as an example, some references were made and such, but it was much more toned down and in a way that was more acceptable. As an example, last time Blake Shelton was on, Shelton had mentioned that he can't do Shakira's accent, to which Leno said that he (Shelton) couldn't do Shakira at all. (Shelton got a laugh from that and you could tell he was going to miss Leno and his good humor.)

Again though, thank you for your respectful way of mentioning that you don't like Leno and his humor.

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