MovieChat Forums > Rambling Rose (1991) Discussion > Was Rose a Sexual Offender??

Was Rose a Sexual Offender??


So here's the question: If a young adult woman gets into bed with a thirteen year-old boy, and then allows him to fondle her to orgasm, does that make her a criminal?

Would there ever be a film where a young adult male could get into bed with a thirteen year-old girl, with one or the other fondling the other to orgasm, and would it be possible for the film to develop that adult male into a sympathetic character?

Now, it seems to me, that in more sensible times, Rose would not be a sexual offender. In fact, the boy would be universally recognized as one really lucky fellow.

And, also in more sensible times, any male who got into bed witha thirteen year-old girl would have been rightfully shot.

But in our wacky, feminized legal system (which ideologically must regard males and females as always the same, all the time), Rose would be a criminal. In this wacky, feminized time, fabulously gorgeous 20-something high school teachers get arrested for having sex with under-age boys.

What is it about Buddy in the film that is so different from young teenaged boys of today? How can the encounter between Buddy and Rose be so okay, while similar encounters between 14-15 year-old boys and 30 year-old women is today now a crime? Is there a meaningful difference between the sexuality of boys and girls?

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How can the encounter between Buddy and Rose be so okay, while similar encounters between 14-15 year-old boys and 30 year-old women is today now a crime?

Jaymaloney, Your other points in the post are interesting and would take more discussion that is possible on these message boards, however, I am intruiged by this question above.
I did not interpret that encounter as "so o.k." in any way, shape, or form. Did others? It was perverse, but was in the film to depict Rose's desparate need to be touched. I think if Buddy's parents had known about it, she would've been sent a-packing early on and there would not have been that bond between the mother and Rose. (....and there would have been no movie -- LOL!)
There is a play called "Tea & Sympathy" that deals with this an adult woman with teenage boys and the implications. You might find it interesting.

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No. As a young boy I would have given my, well you know what, to have been in that same situation. A boy of 13 is constantly thinking of the ways of the world and those thoughts are as natural as natural can be. Rose was NOT in a position of authority such as a teacher or counselor.

There is more sex and promiscuity among pre-teens and teens now than at anytime in my life (I grew up in the 1950s and 60s). Our current sexual mores seem askew with the whole sexual offender mentality. Buddy asked, Rose reluctantly obliged and did nothing wrong from my perspective. Nothing was forced. Rose was not a sexual predator on the young Buddy. His puppy-love for Rose likely made him a better individual who really cared for her as a friend and as a person.

Good thought-provoking question Jaymaloney.

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She's definitely not a sexual predator. She's very insecure and reluctantly lets him do it (if I remember correctly). Also he clearly liked what he was doing so there was no harm done.

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She still did it though.

Would a man be a sexual preditor if he was in a 13 year old girls bed while she tossedh im off?

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No not a predator, but he'd be a perv to let her do it.

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So you'd agree that Rose was a perve?

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Probably. Either that or sexually repressed. I mean I don't think she did it again right? I think it was a one time thing.

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Is there a chance that if a man did it just the once he would be sexually repressed or just a pervert?

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Yeah but it depends on the person. If the man was trying to manipulate the girl then he's clearly a criminal. But if it's some very insecure guy like how Rose was, then it's still wrong but I wouldn't put him into the same category as the first example. What Rose did wasn't right, but I don't think there are any negative consequences to it. She didn't even do anything. The boy clearly knew what he was doing and wanted to do it.

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'Yeh but it depends on the person'

thats like saying 'Well they arn't a SHOP LIFTER...they are just stealing to satisfy their needs'

It's still breaking the law

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"thats like saying 'Well they arn't a SHOP LIFTER...they are just stealing to satisfy their needs'"

That is total bullsh!t. Stealing from someone DIRECTLY harms them. A 14 year old boy knowingly masturbating a woman, and wanting to do it, doesn't harm anyone.

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If a 13 year old boy wanted to have sex with her and she let him, would that be ok also? You know, since he wants to do it...doesn't harm anyone

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Yes.

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What is right and what is law are not always that same thing.

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Rose was a prostitute- no way repressed!

I love house of a deep nature.
Remember- wherever you go, there you are.

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Rose wasn't a prostitute. Some men tried to turn her into a prostitute but she didn't want to be one. That's why she went to live and work with the Hillyers.

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[deleted]

"But in our wacky, feminized legal system (which ideologically must regard males and females as always the same, all the time), Rose would be a criminal. In this wacky, feminized time, fabulously gorgeous 20-something high school teachers get arrested for having sex with under-age boys."

I believe it also showed how patriarchal American society was back in the 30s. Remember, the the doctor and Buddy's father were trying to CIRCUMSIZE her so she would lose all pleasure to deflate her sexuality and the mother spoke out, "how dare they even think of such a horrid thing to do a woman." So it's okay for a man to be oversexed but a woman cannot?cause it just isn't natural for a woman to express this aspect of human nature.. And to take away all forms of pleasure for the rest of her life??who do they think they are?It defintely shows how that era where women were trying to get a voice within American society. I found this particular scene really distrubing.And what's even more disturbimg is that this practice is performed in the U.S. but its high occruence lies in Africa and is performed by OTHER women.

"Prior to the twentieth century, men assigned and defined women’s roles. Although all women were effected by men determining women’s behavior, largely middle class women suffered. Men perpetrated an ideological prison that subjected and silenced women. This ideology, called the Cult of True Womanhood, legitimized the victimization of women. The Cult of Domesticity and the Cult of Purity were the central tenets of the Cult of True Womanhood. Laboring under the seeming benevolence of the Cult of Domesticity, women were imprisoned in the home or private sphere, a servant tending to the needs of the family. Furthermore, the Cult of Purity obliged women to remain virtuous and pure even in marriage, with their comportment continuing to be one of modesty. Religious piety and submission were beliefs that were more peripheral components of the ideology, yet both were borne of and a part of the ideology of True Womanhood. These were the means that men used to insure the passivity and docility of women. Religion would pacify any desires that could cause a deviation from these set standards, while submission implied a vulnerability and dependence on the patriarchal head."- Deborah Thomas, "Changing of Womanhood"



Somebody's got to lead this revolution and I guess it's gonna be me.

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You need to learn the difference between "effected" and "affected."

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They were not discussing circumcising her. They were talking about removing her gonads and uterus. Hysteria, hysterectomy, all being of the same root. They were talking about the root of her hormones, not her clitoris. Female circumcision does not rob a woman of her hormones. I am not defending the practice either just in case anyone reading this wants to freak out, but just correcting what actually was discussed in the physician's office. And actually the idea of uterus being the root of female 'bad behavior' is far more in keeping with the time period of the film.

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I'm with that guy.


"A cage went in search of a bird."

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[deleted]

Great comment, guy. I am sure you can get ta *beep* ya *beep*

"A cage went in search of a bird."

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I have to agree she was a pervert. No business being in that bed with that little boy.


Somebody's got to lead this revolution and I guess it's gonna be me.

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Yes she was

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she wasn't a sexual preditor, but she was an addict, in my opinion in a court of law she would be found innocent, due to the fact of psychiological problems, and be sent to a hospital for treatment. Sexual preditors, by definition do what they do because of the need to dominate others, they do this with sexual acts because it gives them cheap thrills. Sexual addicts, have no intention of pain or grievence, but use sex as almost a drug, but in an addicts case it has nothing to do with the other person, however like in this case, the need for sex sometimes doesnt care for who the subject is

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Well, I am sure there are quite a few moral issues being addressed in this scene...

But that kid was still a lucky bastard.

"I got one! I fackin' got one!"
"What do you want, a fackin' sweetie?! Keep shooting ya' *beep*

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"But that kid was still a lucky bastard. "

LOL! Unreal...

OK, so a 13yo girl pleasurs a grown man under the covers to the point of him reaching orgasm.
Would you say the same thing?

"She's one lucky girl!"
Well maybe you wouldn't because you're a male. But what would you think of anyone that said that?
Sounds a bit strange doesn't it?
Why?

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Oh so I man with pyschology problems should also be found innocent if they've been getting in bed with 13 year old girls?

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"Statutory Rape" is just that ... "Statutory", that means it doesn't matter if both parties were willing participants. It's still against the law.

And it doesn't matter if the adult was in a "position of power" or anything, ANY adult is taking advantage of any minor (I know, I know...how do you define "a minor"?). People are all different, and a 14 year old might be way more mature than some 20-somethings, but the law has to draw an educated line somewhere. 14 is way below the line (nowadays).

Yes, I know that back in the 1800's people had their first kids at the age of 12 and died at the age of 35, but society is much different now. Maybe back then two 14 year olds could have a kid and survive by working on the farm, or hunting, or whatever...but not today. ie; things have changed.

Though, I have to admit that when I first saw this movie MANY years ago, I thought that scene was totally hot.

Also the apparent lopsided-ness of older/younger relationships is WAY different based on gender. Consider this
1) An older man and a 14 year old girl. The older man is most likely MUCH more physically powerful than a young girl, and can EASILY take advantage of her, despite her struggling. The girl doesn't have to be willing for the man to do this.
2) An older women can't force (standard) intercourse on a boy without him physically wanting to engage in it. Yes, she could make him do other things, but likely he has a much better chance at resisting than the situation with an older man and a young girl.
3) 14 year old boys and girls equally want to have sex. Let's face it. But biology dictates that the consequences are much different. Young boys won't get pregnant. Social standards ARE double standards, but there's a reason for it.

Anyway, that's my opinion anyway, which I'm sure will conflict with at least 50% of the population, if not more.

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"Anyway, that's my opinion anyway, which I'm sure will conflict with at least 50% of the population, if not more."

Vhylok, I think you said it perfectly and articulated (what I couldn't) reasons why the double standard exists.
Nice job

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But the double standard thing does not hold true re: babies. I mean, just as we can live a little longer than 35, girls do not have to have babies with such wonderful inventions as condoms, rings, pills, etc. So why can't the 14 year old girls experiment as well? Anyway, even without birth control I see no reason a double standard should exist because there are a lot of other things people can do that are not going to get one pregnant.

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Read this for what it is worth.
One of my younger brothers has been a teacher in a large school in Indiana, and half the 14-yr old and 15-yr old girls in his classes ARE pregnant, and some already have a child, including some of the pregnant ones...
Now, what was that about the "old days" again? And about experimentation?


And in response to a previous comment regarding how women cannot force *standard intercourse* on an unwilling male... (i.e. rape)
Well, it seems the courts have chosen to disagree with that view, regardless of whatever the poster meant by *standard*.
In part, I suppose this originated in defeating the idea that if a female rape victim had an orgasm, it wasn't rape then... The finding is that both male and female bodies respond to physical stimulus, including reaching orgasm, regardless of consent.
Anyone surprised by that?

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If you can get the special edition DVD of RAMBLING ROSE, with the director's alternate ending included, and director's commentary that can be turned on/off for both the original and alternate ending versions, there is a lot more info and insight about why Rose got into bed with Buddy, and it was never what a lot of comments make it out to be.

In real life, the director scheduled that scene for filming near the end of shooting the movie so actors Lucas and Laura would have time to get to know and trust each other.



On the other hand, the director (BTW, a woman) makes it clear in her commentary that the underage actor, Lucas, really did touch the actress's breast.
(*snarky comment* How many re-takes do you think he could have caused, if he wanted?)

Since he got paid for doing that in the scene, does THAT constitute an illegal act? And the questions could keep going on that topic.

Yes, his parents were consulted about the role, and FULLY familiarized with it, BEFORE Lucas was even approached about it, and they allowed him to chose to take that role or not.
Yes, once the limit of working hours for a minor were reached, Lucas's tutor removed him from the set, even shutting down filming for the day; and that did cause problems shooting the movie.
Yes, the director included him in a scene with nudity in such a way he couldn't see it, but was in the scene. (?!? He can touch, but not look ?!?)

Just food for discussion.


And another topic about kids in movies... this movie...
The little girl, actress Lisa, finished the filming with a broken back (also described in the director's comments as a cracked vertebrae), which changed some of the filming since she couldn't even step up 4-inches from the street to a sidewalk, over the curbing. She was written out of at least one scene because she couldn't sit at the time it was filmed, and a double was used in another scene, once. The commentary only said Lisa suffered an injury during the filming, but not if it was on the film, the film set, or on personal time off the job.
Would a male director have been tar-and-feathered for doing that?

Welcome to equal, except...


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CaliforniaFilmGuy wrote:

"Space Cowboys" boasts multiple elderly male leads. That movie would never had been green-lighted as box office worthy with that many 50+ female leads.
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I agree that that is the reality. Strangely, a recent film did have multiple 50+ female leads: "First Wives Club" Bette Midler, Goldie Hawn, and Diane Keaton were all 50 when the film was released and it made a ton of money. I'm a guy, but I found the film quite funny. Sadly, although all three actors wanted to do a sequel, the studios said it wouldn't succeed and that the original was just a fluke.

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