MovieChat Forums > Mortal Thoughts (1991) Discussion > Possible plot hole - Arthur *** SPOILER ...

Possible plot hole - Arthur *** SPOILER ***


Who really killed Arthur ?

When Cynthia (Demi Moore) is telling her phony story, Joyce (Glenne Headly) seems to have every motive in killing Cynthia's husband Arthur (John Pankow) since he could have gone to the cops about James' death, as she repeatedly tells Cynthia. But we learn that it was Cynthia who killed James, so Joyce no longer has a strong motive to kill Arthur. So was it Cynthia or was it Joyce that killed Arthur ? If it was Cynthia, was it because he could have threatened to take her kids away and turn her in ?

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it was joyce.

her mounting paranoia was climbing to an explosion, and she was pissed at Cynthia for a number of reasons.

in my eyes, it was Joyce who killed Mr. More-head.

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I agree that it was Joyce, she lost control due to paranoia, loss, Cynthia's betrayal and the pills she was taking.

I think what the flashback to the real night shows, is why Cynthia either:

1. Honestly didn't suspect Joyce would kill Arthur (as she hadn't ever killed anyone, not being the one who murdered Jimmy)
or
2. Allowed Joyce to go there to kill Arthur (if he squealed, Cynthia would be one step closer to being discovered as the killer of Jimmy)


R.I.P. Kim Manners

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[deleted]

The movie was based on a true story as you said, but the screenwriters (who worked from the interrogation transcripts) changed the gender. So in the real story, which did happen in NJ, the men killed the other one's wife. In the original screenplay Demi Moore's character broke under the interrogation, and confessed.

~If you say "I had everything under control" one more time I'm going to slap you with my guitar.~

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[deleted]


Is the movie mortal thoughts a true story?

It may be based on a real case. Two 25 year old Hoboken NJ (two towns away from the movie's Bayonne location) friends, one a florist (instead of Hair Dresser) the other a Contractor. The Florist, Dennis Raso, offered his friend Stephen Azzollini $1500 and a piece of the florist business to murder his wife. Mrs. Raso was found in Manhattan with her fhroat slit. When Azzollini returned home his wife saw the blood. Azzollini said Raso killed his wife and that he (Azzollini) helped cover for him. She threatend to go to the police and she was later found shot to death. Sound familiar? The case went to trial in NJ and both men were found guilt of murder during several NY and NJ trials, the last trial in 1981.Azzollini is serving life in Trenton State Prison and Raso is in Rahway State Prison.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_the_movie_mortal_thoughts_a_true_story#page1

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Who really killed Arthur ?

When Cynthia (Demi Moore) is telling her phony story, Joyce (Glenne Headly) seems to have every motive in killing Cynthia's husband Arthur (John Pankow) since he could have gone to the cops about James' death, as she repeatedly tells Cynthia. But we learn that it was Cynthia who killed James, so Joyce no longer has a strong motive to kill Arthur. So was it Cynthia or was it Joyce that killed Arthur ? If it was Cynthia, was it because he could have threatened to take her kids away and turn her in ?


I think Cynthia killed both husbands. She killed James because he tried to rape her and she killed her own husband Arthur when he threw her out, threatened to divorce her, take their kids, and expose her part in James' murder. I think everything Cynthia said was true except that she killed both men.

What's wrong? What did that creepy, good-looking bastard do?-- Kate/FSoG
Poor, fvcked-up, kinky, philanthropic Christian.-- Ana/FSoG
A mistletoe can be deadly if you eat it.-- Bruce Wayne/Batman Returns
But a kiss can be even deadlier if you mean it.-- Selina Kyle/Batman Returns

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Joyce killed Arthur...

Cynthia killed James in self defense because he attempted to rape her, and then Joyce killed Arthur not in retaliation for James, but because she perceived Arthur as a threat through her paranoia and by reason of insanity. Remember in the shop Joyce said that sometimes she thinks she hears James calling her - "Hey, Joycie...", and she had attempted to slit her wrists and her paranoia would give her the insanity defense. She was truly going insane -- the most telling in the shop the night of the wake -- which led to Arthur's death. There was no one there to put the "crazy act" on for, except Cynthia. You can see in Joyce's eyes that she really does believe she hears him, thus my conclusion that she is on a slow descent into insanity. Time has passed since James's death, there would have been an autopsy after James's was found, enough time for Joyce to start unraveling. At this point Joyce has become detached.

By the time she gets to Cynthia's to get the gun back, it was to protect herself from her in-laws, not to kill Arthur. But, as things rolled along in that visit, it became clear to Joyce she had to do away with Arthur.

That whole tet a tet between Arthur and Joyce is interesting and well played. She oh-so subtly tells Arthur who really killed James with one simple cut of the eyes towards Cynthia coming down the stairs - chilling. You could see at this point her wheels are already turning with regard to the hapless Arthur.

But, notice after she is handed the gun from Cynthia in the paper bag, it's pointing right at Arthur (foreshadowing). And now her comment to Cynthia outside the house. "That phuque! He thinks he knows something!!!!" Then Cynthia tells her that Arthur knows, fueling Joyce's delusions even more. She TELLS Cynthia she will get Arthur, her and her children. Cynthia now starts avoiding Joyce. Joyce confronts her on the phone about her avoidance, she is taking it as an afront and betrayal. She asks about Arthur, if he's home to which Cynthia innocently gives her the answer, "Yes," also letting her know not to start with Arthur, he won't take her crap. Joyce replies, "You dont' understand, I'm not going to START with Arthur, I'm going to FINISH with him!" Cynthia never thought that Joyce would do anything to harm Arthur, but she was wrong. By this time, Joyce has spiraled out of control full blown. She goes to the Kellog's house and kills Arthur.

The Detective knows Cynthia killed James ("Tell me a lie."). He has just figured that part out during Cynthia's interrogation. He couldn't prove it, but he wanted her to confess (of course, he doesn't know about the attempted rape, but he already has an inkling that James would sexually abuse Cynthia through her interview with him.) He had known all along that Joyce killed Arthur. I think this is what trips everyone up with regard to who killed Arthur. We find out as shock value, but The Detective has known all along. We don't know the details of Joyce's arrest -- was she arrested at the Kellog's with a smoking gun in her hand, or at her apartment with the gun still in her possession...we don't know. One thing we can deduce is that Joyce would still have the gun out of fear of her in-laws.

More importantly, the coroner would have determined the time Arthur died, so this in itself would have excluded Cynthia from committing the murder because of corraboration from her family that she was at the mother's house with her children, drunk and asleep at the time of Arthur's murder. Also, this interrogation is being conducted a while after Arthur's murder, so we would allow time for the autopsy, funeral and investigation.

The flashback in Cynthia's car is for our benefit. She already knows the details and she is pissed off at Joyce for killing Arthur. Joyce might not have cared at all if James was dead, but Cynthia truly loved Arthur and this is why she's pinning the murder of both men on Joyce, out of anger. Remember the look she give Joyce in passing while she is leaving the interrogation room -- pure anger.

She goes back to the precinct because it's the right thing to do, anger aside it is her duty to tell the truth, and now she's ready. Remember throughout this, she tells Joyce, "I don't think we're doing the right thing..." She wanted to get James to the hospital, but it was Joyce who insisted on letting him die, getting rid of the body and lying to everyone about it, straining her marriage and ruining her friendshp with Joyce. She was a victim all around within this story.

Above is how I justify my conclusion that Joyce -- not Cynthia -- killed Arthur.


So, Cynthia can get off on a self defense and Joyce might get off by reason of insanity and no kiddies are orphans. The other way around -- Cynthia's Version -- Joyce is then killer, sent to prison for killing two men in cold blood, leaving her son and unborn child (if she didn't abort)orphans, and Cynthia is scott free to live the rest of her life with guilt.

Whewww!



Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...

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Joyce actually pulled the trigger (remember that Cynthia was at her parents' house during the time of Arthur's death), but it's arguable that Cynthia is partially responsible for her husband's murder. We see the phone conversation between Joyce and Cynthia that night and hear Joyce's threatening tone ("I'm not gonna start things with Artie; I'm gonna finish things with Artie!") and we see that Cynthia does nothing to warn Arthur about Joyce. We also know that Arthur has told Cynthia that he's divorcing her and taking the kids. She's also worried about him turning her and/or Joyce in (Joyce expresses fears about this too, and Joyce is at least partially culpable in Jimmy's death, so I'd say that Joyce does have a strong motive to kill Arthur). When taking all that into consideration, it's reasonable to assume that Cynthia now considers Arthur a liability, and, by an easy act of omission, lets Joyce do away with him.

Everyone has their reasons.

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bump.

Swing away, Merrill....Merrill, swing away...

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