MovieChat Forums > Impromptu Discussion > Where Chopin and Listz more than friends...

Where Chopin and Listz more than friends?


I know they weren't in real life, but in the movie Chopin seems more interested in his friend than in madam Sands. What do you think?

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Dude, you mispelled Liszt's name.

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Eva Rosen, you're hardly in a position to criticize another for their incorrect spelling of Liszt's name, when you cannot spell the word "misspelled" correctly yourself. Still, you used the word "dude", so you're probably an American and it therefore comes as no great surprise.

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Let's keep petty sniping and xenophobia out of this board, please.

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On the contrary, I do not have a dislike of foreigners, my slant (for that is all it was) was just against someone who criticized another for their spelling, whilst committing a fundamental spelling error in the text of their critique. The pot calling the kettle black I'd say.

My American observation/comment was simply based on my view that Americans are significant misusers and abusers of the English language, as so painfully witnessed on British television. That is not a xenophobic stance by any stretch of the imagination. If you want a prime example of xenophobia, just look within the bounds of your own shores. Paranoia, mistrust and hostility to foreigners both at home and away is rife.

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Then perhaps we can agree that one should not judge an entire people by the actions of their political leadership or the actions of tourists abroad, and certianly not by what one watches on TV. Which you have just done. As an American who spells words with care, I would prefer that you keep your "slanted" remarks against Americans out of a discussion of Chopin and Liszt. There are plenty of sites where you can vent against us with abandon.

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Really? How enchanting. I shall look out for them.

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Quote "and certianly not by what one watches on TV. Which you have just done. As an American who spells words with care".

Certianly?

Hmm, can't see that one in the OED.

The OED, no doubt a rarity in the U.S, along with books promoting the greater understanding of other cultures.

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Will everyone PLEASE ignore this troll? And turn the subject back to Chopin and "Impromptu." There is an imdb section for "Private Messages" - and that is where this kind of irrelevant baiting should be conducted. Behave!

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I languish in delight at your feathery insult. Better that I have the natural ability to issue wind, whereas you clearly emulate the product of rectal seepage.

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Calacatranis:

We are protected by the enormity of your stupidity.

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How fascinating.

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To be honest, although you don't strike me as the type that would want the colonies back, take it from me, speaking on behalf of most of us (by definition), based on the last eight years of Bush, you can have them.

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Dear Calacantranis. The English language is the most beautiful of all. It has such majesty, and nobility; that other languages pale in comparison.

You on the other hand are indeed xenophobic. "The pot calling the kettle black;" indeed? For you to have used this phrase, in the critique of another's' misspelling strikes me as being filled with great irony. You make the comment; "paranoia, mistrust, and hostility to foreigners both at home and away is rife." Now, that is really the height of hypocrisy.

Unlike the Britain you know, which will shortly be a colony of Eurabia, we in the United States of America have the most diverse group of immigrants of any nation on the face of this earth. We have integrated our immigrants, and that is who I am, and who we are. That is all we are. We do NOT pretend to be anything that we are not. That certainly should sound foreign to you. Much of the world's current problems have a distinctive British subtext.

Your diversity is not one of choice, but one borne merely out of obligation to your former colonization of the world. The immigrants in the glorious United States of America came here freely and eagerly without having been the victims of any previous colonization. We fought our former imperialistic, colonizers to shake off the shackles of their mighty grandiose imperiousness.

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Criticism is due on both sides. You express disdain toward the intelligence of Americans but wrote this:

On the contrary, I do not have a dislike of foreigners, my slant (for that is all it was) was just against someone who criticized another for their spelling, whilst committing a fundamental spelling error in the text of their critique. The pot calling the kettle black I'd say.


You are mixing singular and plural~a lack of agreement. "Their" should be "his or her" or "his/her" two places. Perhaps this is not as dreaded as misspelling a word, but it's one of my pet peeves.

So, where does criticism end? What error(s) did I make?

By the way: Yes, they are only friends. How silly to try to throw in the gay bit, which is all too common on IMDb forums. (I just finished watching this, so I'm quite certain that there is no "homoerotic undertone", as too often is claimed of movies.)

~~MystMoonstruck~~

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You formed your opinion of American usage of the English language by watching BBC? 😊

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Piss off.

"They sucked his brains out!"

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*Sigh*
No, Chopin and Liszt were not lovers.
They were great friends united by their love of music, and their refined sensibilities. Not every elegant man has to be gay.

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Thank you, tdirtyred, you expressed my sentiments precisely. And the original poster wrote not only "Listz" for "Liszt" but also "Sands" (like actor Julian) instead of "Sand." Not to mention "Where" for "Were." But, I guess not every elegant poster has to be a good speller.

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actually chopin was asexual, he didnt love men or women, so yes it maybe that he was more "intrested" in his friend becuase he loves and composes music just like him.
and george sad is a very naughty lady, she left him before she died, what a horrible b**tch!

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Well, she didn't exactly just "leave" him -- they were having problems. And I don't think Chopin was asexual. He wasn't an angel (contrary to what Sand may have written). He was just a regular human. Anyway, Sand was the love of his life. I'm not sure she would have been with him for as long as she was if they hadn't had some sort of sexual relationship.

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there is a line that Hugh Grant has in the film that kinda explains the asexuality a little. He mentions that when he first came to Paris he was 'well baptized in the Paris brothels' but that when his health began to fail, he chose instead to spend whatever time he had left on earth concentrating on his music. he says, and I paraphrase.. that 'I left my body'.. out of fear of being trapped in it or something like that. That sound a lot like something he very well could have said or written historically. No doubt a healthy sex life was not an option he considered still available to him by the time he met Sand.

As for his good friend Franz, never was there a more hetro guy! He was famous for his loving of women. However, that did not prevent him from having very solid friendships with men. He and Chopin were close, but not sexually. They had a shared vision and intensity that was likely ill understood by many around them.

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Chopin and Liszt were very good friends, he formed an early friendship with Chopin, but later fierce competition turned the men into rivals.

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Well, they were nor really rivals, but Chopin hat a lot of envy feelings towards Liszt and his popularity. But he was the pianist he trustet most of all his rivals. And they where both foreigners in a country that made them both very famous. A country that learnt them both to be world artist, the polish speaking Chopin and the german speaking Liszt.

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>A country that learnt them both to be world artist, the polish speaking Chopin and the german speaking Liszt.

Liszt is Hungarian, though he might speak German.

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While yes, Liszt was Hungarian, he was from an area of Hungary that spoke German. Also, his father and grandfather were German and during that era in Hungary, one's nationality was based by that of one's father. Thus, while Liszt was born in Hungary, he was considered German and that was the native tongue that he spoke.

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They envied in each other that which they thought the other did better. Liszt was a virtuoso player and envied Chopin's composing. Chopin was the acclaimed composer and envied Liszt playing.

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Supposedly she threw him out over a disagreement about her daughter. He took the daughter's side and Sand threw him out. Then when he died, she was heartbroken. I read somewhere that she had both male and female lovers (Sand).

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that is the biggest load of horse *beep* i have ever read in my life....chopin asexual LISTEN TO HIS MUSIC FOR GOD SAKE!!!! the man is driven by extreme passion and the most powerful love. you are one thick-arsed eejit!

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I read somewhere that he certainly had strong sexual urges and after Majorca George Sand was not about to satisfy them - for the rest of the ten years they were together he was on a diet. Some think he turned to her daughter Solange but no one will ever know. We know he had massive crushes on a few women -- that would assuredly fuel the passion he put in his music. I don't know who called him asexual because your post is filed under another discussion.

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Chopin was not asexual...there is nothing to suggest that he was asexual. In fact there is some evidence in letters written to friends suggesting he engaged in sexual activity.

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One thing to understand is that, in the 18th and 19th centuries, men often expressed emotion to eachother in ways that would seem suggestive and even erotic to us today. This is doubly true if the observer was raised in the puritanical environment of the modern United States. I'm not just taking about your regular, French cheek-kissing, here. You would have to read letters written in those days to understand. Men would write of their undying love for eachother, and things like that (I just read about George Washington doing this). I don't know if it was meant humorously or sincerely, but I'm pretty sure there was no homoerotic meaning behind it. As another poster in this thread pointed out, there have been fewer figures in history more hetero than Franz Liszt (or George Wsahington, for that matter; when you see those "George Washington slept here" signs, it's probable that he did so in the company of a woman).

As for Hugh Grant's protrayal in Impromptu, Chopin is commonly thought of as having been effeminate, mostly due to his weakness due to his chronic illness. They were probably just playing this up.

-EdM.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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It surprises me when people think that just because a man sleeps with many women, that does not make him gay. Some men overcompensate for their homoerotic feelings by sleeping with every woman they can. That way they prove how manly they are. In fact, it is the guy who overdoes it that usually has something to hide.

One poster said, "He and Chopin were close, but not sexually. They had a shared vision and intensity that was likely ill understood by many around them." How does anyone even know if he and Chopin were sexual or not? In those days one did not go to gay pride parades and proclaim their sexuality. If one was gay they would hide it as much as possible, possibly by sleeping with as many women as they could. Afterall, it would ruin your life to be publicly known as a homosexual. I am not saying there was anything more between them than friendship, but I do not think it is anything any of us would know, no matter what book you may have read, etc.

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While Chopin and Lizst were great friends I totally doubt they were lovers. Chopin did have a passionate attachment to a few male friends, mostly in younger years, but that wasn't uncommon for the time and we have no way of knowing if he slept with them. But in the case of Lizst, they were competitors on the music scene -- both were stars and from eastern Europe, and that did as much to draw them together as pit them against each other. Each was always looking over the shoulder at the other. And Chopin was discreet in everything and not very adventurous sexually -- very proper and repressed. He really didn't approve of Lizst's amorous conduct and always comported himself impeccably. That's one reason why his affair with George Sand was such a wild step for him.

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In THE MOVIE. I don't even intent to speculate about them as real persons, because who could possibly know, since none of us were there.

I think events as portrayed in the movie don't necessarily relate with the real persons they represent; after all, in this movie it almost look like madame Sand bullied Chopin into a relationship with her, when for all the books it seemed like it was something very romantic and all. Also I'm fairly sure that Lizst didn't strangle his mistress, thank you.

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Lizst doesn't strangle his mistress. He goes for her throat in anger and they cut away and then in the next scene (their last) he's striding down the street and she's yelling at him. And it's nice to compare notes on whatactually happened but to expect a bio pic to be completely factual defeats the whole purpose of dramatization, where artistic license prevails. I'll bet Salieri didn't poison Mozart, thanks very much.

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I would have, if I'd been Salieri and the real Mozart had been like the one in "Amadeus" LOL.

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Me too! Back to Impromptu, though, I think no biographer knows what took place during the two years Sand and Chopin courted. She destroyed all the letters. Talk about a bitter divorce.

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*FRUSTRATION* Some of us were hoping for an answer to the poster's question.

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As several posters have already stated, they were NOT more than friends. Even their friendship was ambivalent since they were basically in competition with each other.

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death on vacations???...creepy

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This movie has about as much to do with Chopin as "Freaky Friday" has to do with leap year. No, to answer your question, Chopin was not gay. Neither was Liszt. Neither was Baroness Dudevant. This movie is nothing but an Oxygen Channel chick-trifle with nothing of any interest to be said about any of its characters. If you want to get a sense of the real Chopin, either get some of his music or read the book "Chopin's Funeral".

-drl

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I should just listen to Mozart and not bother with AMADEUS then? And thanks for dismissing "chick flicks." You reveal your true colours right there.

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It was common during the Romantic era for two men to have "platonic love". This is known as homosocial bonding (no, not homosexual)and was considered to be the "purest" form of relationship at the time.

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