MovieChat Forums > Homicide (1991) Discussion > I'm completely baffled (SPOILERS)

I'm completely baffled (SPOILERS)

posted 20 years ago by Beady-El
25 replies | jump to latest

I just saw this film on cable.

(WARNING: MAJOR SPOILERS)

Maybe I'm being dense here (in fact, probably) but it seems to me that there is SO MUCH that is unanswered in this film.

Bobby Gold (Mantegna) was manipulated and set up by the dead old woman's family (though perhaps they WEREN'T her family?) It seems like their entire goal was to get hold of that original list of names that he found in the crate in her basement. It was, after all, the one thing they asked of him that he refused to do. Is there some other goal that I am missing? What was their motivation? What did they want to accomplish?

The trouble is, they began manipulating him WELL BEFORE he ever found the list, and before they could have any real expectation he WOULD find the list. They called city hall and demanded he be put on the case, and it was AFTER THAT that he went into the shop and found the list. Then, after he'd collected the list as evidence, THEN that bogus 'Jewish defense squad' (apparently in cahoots with the old woman's family) started leaning on him to hand it over, ultimately blackmailing him.

WHY?!?! If the old woman REALLY WAS part of their family, why not just go and take the list, and not bother killing her? Even if she wouldn't voluntarily give it up, how hard would it have been for them to just borrow her keys while she was asleep, then go down to the shop & search for the list?

If she WASN'T part of their family, then why didn't they find some way to mention the list to Bobby Gold BEFORE he found it, so perhaps he'd bring it to them INSTEAD of signing it into evidence? For that matter, if she wasn't part of their family, why'd they care about an incriminating list in her basement?

The raid on the antisemitic shop was clearly a set-up. So was the library with it's materials identifying "GROFAZ" as a nickname for Hitler. It was a truly baroque conspiracy, with many people involved and many bogus clues set up. Yet, why did they bother with the goofy 'grofaz' scheme in the first place? If they were going to leave a false clue on the rooftop for Gold to find, why not just plant a swastika armband up there instead?

The film ends without explaining any of it -- why they wanted the list, why they used such a convoluted scheme to acquire it, why the old woman was really killed, how they were able to plant conspirators at the library, the leather shop, etc. - or for that matter, why the original list was important, when many copies existed.

EDIT: Also, I was surprised that they never had any closure for the dude who shot his family and grabbed Bobby's gun, tearing his holster. He had pledged to help Bobby some day - I expected we would see him do so.

[–] 20 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Beady-El 20 years ago

I admit it would have been hard to arrange the library conversation. Even so, at the end of the film, Bobby is handed a page showing that "grofaz" was actually part of the name of a brand of bird seed -- and recall that, on the rooftop where he found the paper saying 'GROFAZ', there was a large pigeon coop. Hence, what he found was likely part of a receipt or shopping list for whoever was taking care of the birds.

[–] [deleted] 9 months ago

Nope

[–] 20 years ago

[deleted]

[–] rockamora 19 years ago

You say you are completely baffled and you are looking for ... you are looking for, what?
Answers?
Answers that will put an end to your confusion and bewilderment?
Is that you want?
Is it?
Ok, I will give you an answer.
I will give you an answer and put an end to it.
I will.
I will give you an answer and put an end your confusion and bewilderment.
The answer is this: you are supposed to be confused and bewildered at movie's end.
You are.
Just like Bobby Gold.

[–] Beady-El 19 years ago

Well if that's the intent, it sure worked.

I guess I thought it odd - because Bobby at least learns that he WAS being manipulated, that people WERE lying to him... but not exactly why, or what they hoped to (or DID) gain by it. ah well.

[–] kasparhauser44 18 years ago

good mamet cadence. i could almost imagine joe mantegna saying those lines as his character in the film.

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] padzok 17 years ago

I think the point was that people assumed she had been murdered by anti-semites; and what's more, they assumed the reason was that the anti-semites wanted to get hold of the list to do mischief with it.

So the reason that "212" wanted the origina list was so that they could put it in a safe place. They had no use for copies of the names from it, since they already knew the names.

The library was not a set up. It was just a coincidence that "Grofaz" was a word which tied into the anti-semitic theory.

But then it all turned out to be exactly what he had thought it was at first. It was just a robbery.

But for the coincidence with the name of the bird feed, his friend would still be alive, and they both might have been promoted. That's Fate, for ya.

[–] bmacwade 17 years ago

Excellent summary, Padzok. That's how I interpreted the film when I saw it 16 years ago. It's still a great crime drama / Mamet play. One of his best works. The dialoge is rapid-fire, like the movies of old.

[–] kinchradio 15 years ago

Thanks Padzok, you helped some> I just watched it on DVD and still don't understand much of what I saw.
Why was the original list so important?

[–] ze_goose 11 years ago

*Major Spoilers*

So he just *happens* to hear that something/someone named '212' had what he was looking for and the 'librarian' coincidentally *happens* to leave the address behind for him to figure it all out? Of course the library was a set-up lol.

I think everything apart from the actual murder was a set-up; they wanted to get the list by any means possible, and hence decided to make the cop fetch it.

[–] mobocracy 14 years ago

I was of the opinion by the end of the film that there was a lot of metaphor associated with Judaism, being Jewish, being a "real" Jew, etc and the movie was really about Bobby'sbstruggle for identity and acceptance.

He's called a *beep* at the start of the movie, all of his coworkers are all old-school Irish cops, he got put on the hostage negotiation team because he's not liked or not tough enough, etc.

My guess is that the movie has more resonance if the Jewish identity crisis means something to you personally. Personally I thought the plotlines could have been tied together a bit better to offset the existential mystery. It was top notch Mamet dialog and great to hear it come from two great actors like Mantegna and Macy (in kind of a pre-breakout role).

[–] tempbrian 14 years ago

You're probably right about a lot of that. Despite my confusion, I did enjoy the film.

I was startled to learn recently that Hitler really WAS called "Grofaz" -- that aspect seemed so preposterous that I assumed it had been made up for the film.

I'll have to watch again to try and understand the bit with the list. Another poster here says - the Jewish group already knew which names were on the list, yet they still wanted the original.

I'm just not tracking that... if the information ON the list is already known, what's the importance of the original? Fingerprints? The possibility some kind of forensic analysis of the paper, to determine who had written it?

Or is it magic paper or something?

Ah well.

[–] enbilal 14 years ago

The list is not that important. This is simply a film about a man who shuns his principles because of the nationalist delusion caused by careful manipulation of his national sentiments. In other words, it criticizes radical Zionism and all equivalent movements.

E.

[–] outstandingrodriguez 13 years ago

The list isn't all that important to us, in the end, but it matters to the Zionist radicals. They need the original because it implicates a number of their people in criminal gun running activities. As such, it's existence is a dual threat, since the police might pursue the matter... or it could fall into the hands of the (real or perceived) enemies of the group, in which case it would serve as a hit list for anti-Zionists. Essentially, they need to ensure that ALL copies of the list get destroyed.

[–] SoTyred 14 years ago

This film was just a mess all around. I like a lot of Mamet's stuff, but this just didn't work. I understand some of the points ppl who have replied to you are giving, but none of those things are apparent in this film.

His very sudden decision to switch from being the 'goood, straight cop', to taking part in a criminal act is just entirely against the character as set up. He may have a problem with authority, but nowhere is there any sense that this guy is going to 'suddenly' join with a side he already kind of despises, AND turn his back on his principles. I just don't see this character being so easily manipulated.

Didn't work for me. Great 2/3, fell apart in the 3rd act.

6/10

**Skin that Smokewagon and see what happens!** Tombstone

[–] chrichtonsworld 14 years ago

Yes,I agree it was a mess.

The shift from self hating jew to so called proud jew is unbelievable. I doubt that it is possible to manipulate someone so fast into doing illegal things when his heart isn't into it. His need to get approval from this particular group.
There is a reason some people distance themselves from certain groups or individuals within a community or religion. Also he didn't want to do the candy story gig at all. Am I suppose to believe that Rebecca Pidgeon's word really had such a big impact on him that he dropped his big case.

Mantegna,basically a good guy and cop gets screwed over multiple times by everyone.He doesn't belong.Talk about depressing.

[–] pacinoyes 13 years ago

"The shift from self hating jew to so called proud jew is unbelievable. I doubt that it is possible to manipulate someone so fast into doing illegal things when his heart isn't into it."

His heart is into it. He's willingly manipulated into it, the same way he's willingly manipulated into always going in first through the door as a cop. Mamet pointedly sets this film up so that his "conversion" seems too quick to an outsider (like his colleagues) but also believable within the context of his character set-up.

He has a conflict in him, long before he starts getting manipulated with the Jewish conspiracy subplot in this film.

"Am I suppose to believe that Rebecca Pidgeon's word really had such a big impact on him that he dropped his big case."

It's his own words that have an impact on him more than what she says. If you didn't buy it, you didn't buy it - but you can level the "I didn't buy it" charge at any film really. Think of your own favorite films - and how they could be dissected the same way.

To me this is a genre masterpiece - a great American film.

[–] black-hood 13 years ago

Very well put Pacinoyes,

Gold clearly had issues and these are alluded to from the start.
His own words on the phone, that are overheard left him ashamed and vunerable and willing to do whatever he could to make up for it.

He's clearly a good cop and instinctively knows there isn't anyone shooting at the family from the roof and that the killing of the old lady is likely to be a simple robbery.

The only conspiracy is to involve him in blowing up the neo-nazi shop and photograph him doing it. 212 then blackmail him to obtain the original list he found at the old lady's shop. The list that had the names of those involved in gun smuggling from the US to Palestine. 212 were able with the photo to blackmail him to get it back from police records.

Everything else is just coincidence. The photo found in the bottom of the picture, the Grofaz written on the piece of paper found on the roof, the hysteria of the family that they were being shot at.
These things were not part of a huge conspiracy. He believed they were all tied together and in the end realises his first instincts were correct.

Of course by then he had lost everything, his best friend, his career in homicide, the respect of his collegues.
His need to belong cost him dear.

One of my favourite Mamet movies, can't believe it only has a 6.9 rating on here.

[–] MrCandy 13 years ago

The one thing though that seemed out of character was that Bob felt it was OK to blow up a store but giving up a list goes against his police code- surely "no committing crimes" is implicit in that police code?

[–] ebright99 12 years ago

As a cop he knew the odds. He know he could blow up the store and most likley not be caught or suspected. But if evidence that he logged and put into his own care were to disapear he would be caught with 100% certainty.

[–] HarveyManfredSinJohn 10 years ago

It's odd that Gold was led to believe that 'Grofaz' was the name of an anti-Semitic organisation to begin with bearing in mind the term was used by German soldiers to deride Hitler's ultimate failure as a military strategist towards the end of World War Two, rather than a term of endearment. Then again, I suppose that's the point. If he'd taken time to question the propaganda he was being told by 212, in order to awaken his Zionist conscience, he might have realised it was all one big ironic lie.

[–] PRiiCEY 10 years ago

I thought the point was we were supposed to be left with a question to ask ourselves, whether or not we believed it was a set up from the beginning? Or simple fate?

[–] black-hood 9 years ago

No, we are not left with a mystery. He was set up to be blackmailed by being photographed bombing the shop, everything else was coincidence and misdirection.