MovieChat Forums > Total Recall (1990) Discussion > Movie Explained and it is a dream.

Movie Explained and it is a dream.

posted 6 years ago by HAL 9010 (903)
42 replies | jump to latest

It is a dream. I have near zero doubt.

When he goes under at the Rekall lab, all we see from then on is his dream - even his brief waking up as Hauser - "you blow my cover aaarggghhh" is part of the Ego trip.

The travel agent makes it a point that while on one of their ego trips, “you are not you”. One would need to be fooled into thinking he is not himself for this ego trip to truly work.

However, a point often missed is that it is not a well orchestrated dream adventure vacation as planned by the Rekall Travel Agency. It is an ego trip gone horrible horrible wrong. Exactly as foretold by his construction bodies early in the movie and later explained in detail by the Doc at the Hilton’s.

The overall plot of the adventure was indeed designed by the Rekall engineers as intended, but the variations and how it unfolds as we go along (like oddities of including his wife and coworkers etc. in to the mix) was because his subconsciousness was slowly taking over as the main dream architect. In a way the dream went out of Rekall Travel Agency’s control.

So ultimately what we see is a dream where his subconsciousness is the storyteller, based upon the story-frame provide by the Rekall lab (Mars, Hilton etc). And his consciousness (him) is the ignorant player. Sort of how lucid dreams work.

There are many tell signs that it is a dream, however the biggest are:

# The whole story with "blue skies on mars", "alien reactor", "double agent", "Cohaggen", "Venusville", “room at the Hilton Hotel” etc. and even also our "sleazy Melina" are all setup at the Rekall lab before he goes under (watch the monitors in the background - even the "secret" alien reactor is shown there). It is all part of their designed dream adventure.

# Think about Cohaagens plan for moment. It is so outlandish that it really only makes any sense if it was sort of thought up randomly (dreamt under the control of his subconsciousness) as we go along.

# The Doc at the Hilton spells out what happens from that moment on, pretty much spot on and scene by scene.

# Movie ends with fading to white (as he is getting lobotomized, again as foretold by the Doc). Movies usually fade to black. This is no chance.

# It is the Doc from the TV commercials that visits him at Hilton and did he just happen to be on Mars then? Rekall was placed on Earth.

# Quaid goes to Hilton (odd choice for an undercover, but it is the choice advertised at the Rekall lab)

# Mars is instantly turned blue, which is rather impossible, and also the title of his “vacation”; Blue Skies on Mars.

I have seen it a gazillion times and I was first of the believe that it was real. A straight forward action movie. Clearly, I am no longer of this opinion.

The only point that speaks against it being a dream is Melina whom we see in his beginning dream. And it is one of the more popular points often mentioned. This can be explained by previous suppressed memories (supporting reality) or simply that she is his dream girl - which is why the Rekall lab also lift her image from his subconscious as they plan his dream vacation. We see how she is rendered by their software as he falls under. So in either case, Melina proves nothing as she can be explained to support both a dream or a reality.

I think it ultimately goes to the understanding or realization of what the movie at its core is truly about:

The movie BEGINS with him having a nightmare where he and his fantasy dream girl falls of a mountain on Mars about to suffocate to death, and then he wakes up and avoids this fatal doom, yet he feels suffocated in his real life still with a woman he does not really love.

The movie ENDS with him and his fantasy dream girl falling of a mountain on Mars about to suffocate to death, except they don't as he saved the day a moment before.

So this time he doesn't have to wake up.

Everything in between is just candy. The movie as a whole is about him making his nightmare into a wonderful fairy tale dream.

____________________________________

Some may mention that we will see scenes which he himself does not take part in, as a sure sign of it being real. This is not fair as lucid dreaming (a real thing) for example is a mix of a storyteller and a participant. And the few scenes without him is thereby dreamed by his subconsciousness as it is trying to make sense of it all. Remember he is only aware on his consciousness, not what mess his subconsciousness is cooking. This is what the Doc calls a schizoid embolism.

In any case many dream movies mix scenes in purely for the sake of storytelling. Like Wizard of Oz (the movie, unlike the book, has it as a dream) and also Inception etc. does this.
____________________________________

[–] brux (14666) 6 years ago

How come you could make such a long, long post?

I think you have to the take the story at face value. For example, why
would a legitimate business turn someone against their own wife?
But you have a long list of valid points there.

People always make complicated assertions about movies, and it is all
very creative and interesting, but the stories in movies are generally
very simple and like the saying goes, if you see a gun on the wall in
act one, someone is going to get shot in act 2. Meaning that movies
to tell a story have to be efficient, and clear, otherwise people get
confused. Some people like to get confused though, it is what turns
the on and gives them something to do.

The thing with something like you suggest is that it is very cynical
of movie companies to make movies that motivate us to see them
agains and again for these Easter Egg things or to find new meaning
in them. I would have to opine that "Total Recall" is about the best
Phillip K. Dick adaptation.

I love Paul Verhoven's Science Fiction efforts, primarily, Starship
Troopers which is one of my favorite movies. They are wonderfully
complex and adult, multi-level. With the exception of the awful
Hollow Man.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

When you edit a text, it allows for more or longer posts.

Rekall did not put in his wife. His subconsciousness took over the dream adventure and started meddling with what Rekall had designed - this is why his wife and coworkers are there. And also why it all went wrong and likely ended in a schizoid embolism. The deeper reason why his wife is dreamt as evil is likely because he was unhappy with his life and wanted change, and she was actively preventing this change. He did after all dream of another non-blond chick on another world. So once the dream adventure kicked in, his subconsciousness put in elements from his real life. And surprise surprise, his wife became the villain, and his old work became henchmen. Not far from my dreams ;)

Either way, Rekall Lab is innocence in this specific oddity. The sales rep did mention though that this ego-trip, where "you are not you and you do not even know if you are dreaming" was state of the art. One can read it as though; not fully tested. Much like his coworkers warned him.

[–] brux (14666) 6 years ago

> When you edit a text, it allows for more or longer posts.

Thanks for the tip.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

Yes Phillip K. Dick was brilliant. I think Recall is very good, and even without speculations as these in my OP, it is on of the best. Others of his, like Blade Runner, Minority Report, Screamers, Adjustment Bureau, Scanner Darkly, Paycheck - all good and interesting movies (on different levels, indeed), even if they perhaps only were inspired by his novels.

Interestingly, I just love Starship Troopers. I am not sure why, because it is so superficial. But dang it, I love it.

[–] brux (14666) 6 years ago

I don't think it is superficial at all, and the characters are great.

Heinlein had a point that all civilization and politics is based on
war, and yet to get that unappetizing point across Verhoven had
to make it in a way such that it did not glorify or heroize the
characters.

It was a very human story essentially about people who are
optimistic and trying to move ahead with their lives. I shed
a tear every since time I see that movie and Diz gets killed.

But I also love Mr. Razcek, the teacher, and then the fat and
happy insulated Dad, who is killed before he even knows what
is going on. The point to me is that there is a large element
in our lives that needs to be somehow dedicated to the human
body politic, a they lecture in class and fall asleep.

Society also needs the institutions to protect itself, and those
institutions are always often corrupt and incompetent. That
movie had a lot about the human condition in it, and plus the
effects were fucking beautiful.

The only thing I really hated was the pathetic guns they
were issued to fight the bugs with.

The only think that cold have that movie better was it they had
a bit more about the man against man in terms of the things
that foil cooperation, and the tendency for governments to be
totalitarian, as we are now seeing with the US and all this
surveillance and how it is used.

Brilliant movie.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

Brilliant post. never saw Starship Troopers in a view like this. I will enjoy it more on my next viewing....

[–] brux (14666) 6 years ago

Cool, love that movie. It was non obvious, as you pointed out about Total Recall.

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

Paul Verhoven's Science Fiction efforts, primarily, Starship
Troopers which is one of my favorite movies. They are wonderfully
complex and adult, multi-level. With the exception of the awful
Hollow Man.

Hollow Man was a knock off of Alien and Cronenberg movies with generic Paul Verhoeven character types that added nothing.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

Side note:

If it is real, I ask; why would a drop of sweat from the Doc at the Hilton mean anything conclusive… clearly Quaid was sweating as fucx himself, and Lori too. And also, if your avatar is a true representation of you (which it seems to be) then it would naturally react to stress etc. and indeed the Doctor was in a very stressful situation, also evident when he shows some anger. Not a life and death situation perhaps, but surely not a typical day at the office either: He would either save his “patient” or he would lose him forever… and likely also the corporate-image of his Company. I would sweat a few drops myself in this situation. So, I never quite understood why a drop of sweat would convince Quaid that he was lying?

Also, if real what was the actual point of the Doc? This hotel scene is what finally convinced Melina that Quaid was telling the truth and so could be introduced to Kuato. So Quaid NOT believing the Doc helped…. If Quaid had believed the doc, well…. how would this help the great plan? Truth is, if they simply had put him in prison at this point, then it would have intrigued the Resistance enough to spring him free and get him to Kuato, imo. That whole Doc thing was pointless... unless, we are having a dream gone wrong and he was trying to wake him up ;-)

What was Cohaagen’s plan? To me it seem extremely sophisticated. The plan seems so random thought up as though it was mostly made up as we go along. Like his subconsciousness is randomly trying to make sense of what it is dreaming. Still to this day, I am not exactly sure what Cohaagens plan actually was. Why do that thing at the hotel with the Doc? If they would have convinced Quaid that he was still at Rekall… how would that help anything? I mean, he had already been at the Resistance. Also how could Cohaagen have the Doc from the Tv commercials on earth standing by ready on Mars (Rekall is an unrelated company)? And a bigger question is that if they could not get near Kuato because he could sniff out double agents, why send in Benny; he was also a double agent and his role was pivotal for the plot to work? And why send in someone who actually has the secret information you are trying to hide? Surely it is better to send in someone who is actually oblivious or who has dummy information. And what would it even help to have Quaid live out with a fake family? Really, why? You know, a lot can be rationalized in some creative way, but it sure as hell seem far out when we think a little bit about it, doesn’t it?

Side note 2:

Melina is present in his dream in the beginning, and later on the monitors at the Rekall lab just before he goes under (and subsequently then in the dream adventure). This must mean one of two things:

1: she simply is his dream girl and preference and so the Rekall lab lifted her appearance from his subconsciousness when they uploaded the dream.

2: he met her before, and she is his preference and so the Rekall lab lifted her appearance from his subconsciousness when they uploaded the dream.

… either way, she proves nothing.

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

The audio commentary explains a lot for one all the scenes without Quaid were built in to seduce him into believing that the reality has never stopped and believing it's real.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

Dreams are usually first person, but lucid or mixed with lucid dreaming occurs too. It is a real thing. This is when you are both the first person and the story teller. Not that much different from when you are reading a book, but identify with a character. In such dreams you can dream up a story where your avatar (in lack of a better word) may not be in every scene. And this is what we have here. Except the dreamer is fooled by his own mind. His consciousness is the player, and his subconsciousness is the story teller, however consciously he is unaware of this and this is why we have a critical situation as the Doc inform us. This is why we have a schizoid embolism at our hands... and then in turn this explains how we can view explanatory (necessary) scenes in-which Qauid/Hauser is not consciously part or aware of. His mind (as in his subconsciousness) establishes these scene to make sense of this crazy dream that it is essentially making up as it goes along with the larger dream design of the Rekall lab.... in short; his subconsciousness hijacked the Rekall dream adventure story, and he is unaware of it.

We, the audience, are watching this story and so we have access to all scenes.

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

Captain Scarlet episode Attack On Cloudbase was all a dream and told from somebody who wasn't there when the Mysterons attacked Cloudbase.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

I do not know it, but I see Youtube can help my with that :) but yep there are many such examples in the litterature beside Total Recall. Also Inception has scenes where the dreamer is not there. In fact Inception has a similar split-setup in that there is a dream architect, and a (or several) dream players, with no connection except for being in the same dream... Wizard of Oz movie is another example (yes I know the book has it as real, but the movie surely had it as a dream). I think most dream movies tells their stories like this...

What other "it is a dream" is there? Jacobs Ladder, Vanilla Sky, Disney's Alice in Wonderland, Brazil, Mulholland Drive, Lost Highway.... what else??

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

The scenes where the protagonist isn't there would be to give insight into the antagonists and trick the audience into thinking it's real.

Seems some people have forgotten that there other dream stories with scenes where the dreamer isn't there when debating whether Total Recall is a dream.

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

Terraforming Mars in a matter of minutes would be impossible in reality.

[–] BourbonKing (5612) 6 years ago

I figured it was real as well when I first saw it in theaters. The explanation by Cohaagen makes sense in that it is a mechanism to use Quaid to hack into the mutant rebellion. At the same time Cohaagen knew that he might lose Quaid as a friend but no problem, all he has to do is erase his memories of falling for Melanie and the rebel cause.

What's great about Verhooven's direction is that he maintains the balance between thinking the whole thing is a dream or if it's real but at the same time showcasing the dangers of messing with our brains with implants and fantasies that are pure bunk. In a way, the reality of Mars is already tainted by the delusions of humanity and all the terraforming going on.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

What mechanism?

Quaid is an agent, who successfully seduced one of resistance members

Quaid could never get close enough, because Kuato could smell him out

Quaid is then brainwashed, and given another identity called Hauser on another planet. With wife and all...

Why?

Of course, I get that a brainwashed Quaid cannot be mind read by Kuato. And I get that "kidnapping him" makes him look interesting in the eyes of the resistance.... But why make him Hauser? Why give him a fake life? The resistance already knew him?

I say the better strategy is to "catch" Quaid, torture him and ultimately erase his memory.... but the vital part of the plan, is to let the resistance know about this, so they will try and free him and bring him to Kuato, as surely Quaid must be important on some way...

[–] BourbonKing (5612) 6 years ago

Okay, but I'm not arguing over the motivation between the resistance and Cohaagen. I'm just stating that I think the mission was REAL not artificial.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

But the motivation is what drives it. One of the bigger reasons for me being in the camp of it being a dream, is that Cohaagen's plan is so outrageous that it doesn't really make sense, unless it is made up randomly by a dreaming mind gone haywire. The biggest part of it is his relocation and his undercover family and the Doc at the hotel.... why are these hugely complicated actions necessary for his overall plan? How do they make sense to you?

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

Well Cohaagen's plan wasn't well thought out as he admitted, Quaid popped his memory cap before they could active him and then Richter went rogue ruining everything Hauser and Cohaagen had planned.

Also some of the science makes it a dream like Mars being Terra formed instantly.

[–] BourbonKing (5612) 6 years ago

The Wife and Doc at the Hotel were part of the ruse to lure Quaid back into Cohaagen's custody. They wanted him to believe that it WAS A DREAM, but it clearly wasn't in my opinion. As MickyMac pointed out, the Recall Program ultimately backfired as it overloaded Quaid's brain. It falls back into Philip K. Dick's quirky approach to Science-Fiction where advanced science ultimately falls back on itself resulting in unintended consequences. Paul Verhoven did a good job of capturing that essence from Dick's story.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

My point was more, why is it important for Quaid to believe he is dreaming at this point in time? Why is that important to the plan?

[–] BourbonKing (5612) 6 years ago

He didn't. When the Doc's sweat drop appeared and Quaid killed him (even though he was warned not to kill) it didn't create any brain induced chaos. Watch the film again..

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

that was not my question.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

My question is about the outrageousness of Coohagens plan. Organizing the Doc (who is in fact from Rekall, we know) to meet Quaid at the hotel to fool him to believe he is dreaming, AFTER Quaid already had met the resistance and told them about his secret identity... What purpose does this serve in Coohagans plan? Why organizing undercover family and a new identity in the first place, what purpose does this serve in Coohagans plan? I am seriously curious, as I cannot see any good reason.... and so this is part why i dismiss it as random madeup plan in Hauser's mind, and not an actual plan by Coohagen... so my questions are legit (I am not trying to be a smart as s), perhaps I am missing something?

Anyway as a side note to your remark above: Before Quaid shoots the Doc, the Doc tells him what will happen if he does not wake up.... and what he says is pretty much exactly what unfolds hereafter. This is copied from the script:

"
Doc; It won't make the slightest difference to me [if you shoot me], Doug, but the consequences to you would be devastating. In your mind, I'll be dead. And with no one to guide you out, you'll be stuck in permanent psychosis.
...
..
.
Doc; The walls of reality will come crashing down. One minute you'll be the savior of the rebel cause, then, next thing you know, you'll be Cohaagen's bosom buddy. You'll even have ridiculous fantasies about alien civilizations--as you requested. But in the end, back on Earth...You'll be lobotomized.
"

- even the walls came crashing in the second he shot him...so this uncanny description on what happens in the remaining part of the whole movie can be explained in one of two ways only:

1: Quaid continues on his adventure that just and totally coincidentally unfolds pretty much verbatim to what the Doc had predicted.

2: Quaid was hereafter locked in this dream and so outlives this dream adventure as the Doc said he would. And the fading to white in the end of the movie (normally, movies fade to black) is him being lobotomized... again, just as the Doc had said...

Which of the two makes the most sense? to you To me, number 2- beyond any doubt.

[–] BourbonKing (5612) 6 years ago

So you think it's a dream and not real. Fair enough.

Agree to disagree. Time to move on

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

I have a hard time understanding how Cohaagans plan makes sense outside of a Dream world. Which is why I asked you if you could explain why you think it does? That was all.

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

His plan wasn't well thought as said, he pretty much destroyed himself like most dictators.

[–] Ilyathe2nd (145) 6 years ago

I think Verhoeven does an excellent job of not making either option too obvious.

As to why Cohaagen's plan was overly complicated to the point of stupidity, the simple answer is arrogance on his part. A longer one could be that, as previously mentioned in this thread, is that it had to convince telepaths, and as a mere psychopath he could not anticipate their reactions, so several options had to be covered. It needed to be convincingly chaotic, is how I'd put it, that a lot of things Cohaagen seems to be angry about happen, and the rebels cab see these events and their telepaths can sense these reactions to them, making the plot believable. A simple plot might be very easy top detect as deception.

The screens at the beginning are harder to explain, the Blue Skies On Mars, all of it, unless Quaid's mental programming causes the machine to extract images from his head. That doesn't explain the ideas given by Rekall and not by Quaid, though, unless Quaid wrote them down as requests, and the technician is simply reading out his list of wishes. This is very much speculative, but would explain it.

I'll try to answer the quotes from the script. First of all, Dr. Edgemar seems to be a marketing figure, a lab coat character invented by Rekall for commercials to make their shady operation seem scientific. This is how Cohaagen gets him to play a part, and this is also why he's so unsure, because it's an acting job, "Edgemar" is no scientist. He's there to get Quaid to surrended quietly.

Cohaagen knows the deal and Quaid's true or earlier identity, this is where "Cohaagen's bosom buddy" comes from, as well as "savior of the rebel cause", which is what they're trying to do.
The Doc knows the walls will come down, because the troops are waiting on the other side of it. Cohaagen knows about the reactor, which is how we get "fantasies about alien civilizations." These are all known to them.

And there we have it, a short case for a poorly thought out plan going wrong.

[–] FredBurroughs (19659) 6 years ago

You make some excellent points about this movie. Verhoeven definitely directed it to leave Quaid's reality open to interpretation. This dutch boy likes to have his cake and eat it too.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

But why organize for the Doc at that point? - since Hauser and Quaid was already by then known to the resistance, I can see only one reason for the Doc in the Hotel room. Mission was aborted and so Quaid had to be taken back (at a moment they did not really need to abort). .. Fair enough. BUT you then make up a "you are dreaming" scenario to convince your top agent? Really? Far out. To organize for the doc to come, tell him in on it all... etc... or just have the agents crash down the wall and take him. It seem like a lot of work for an unreal and not really that important idea. Far out, as I said.

About the Doc: I agree, he seem to be a marketing figure, but he may not be. The odd thing here is that on the same day Quaid arrives to Mars, he is there... very impressive foreboding of Kohaagen as he must have sent for him even before Quaid himself went to Mars. Unless he was there already by chance. Just another que moment in his plan.

Let us not forget that the whole: "it is a dream" explanation is only a relevant scenario after he went to Rekall, which was the day before... so the idea of the Doc could not have been a contingency plan.... this means that once Kohaggen learned that the travel agency messed up the memory implants, he then thinks... hmm then we can convince him he is still dreaming... Okay then :) Perhaps we try and find him first. The Doc happens on Mars, and just a day after Rekall... and still planned by Kohaggen … see what I mean? Doesn't quite add up imo.

So in you explanation, Kohaggen told this shady marketing figure about the alien reactor - the one thing Kogaagen fight so hard to keep a secret. And the Doc also know what he had requested at Rekall Travel Agency it seems. And this shady marketing character they just met was expected to be able to fool their top agent.... Of course, all that could be. But in a line of explanations, that is one of the less likely ones imo.

Also the Doc says: "One minute you'll be the savior of the rebel cause, then, next thing you know, you'll be Cohaagen's bosom buddy" - the savior part was not something they would know would happen. Only the bosom part. In fact, at that point the resistance totally rejected Quaid.

A thing I never got: Why organize for a fake family? Hauser was known by the resistance, his looks etc. and even that he was a double agent, so what is the point of the fake family? I understand of course they needed an agent to get close that does not know why he needs to get close, but why Hauser who already was known by them?

And a bigger question is that if they could not get near Kuato because he could sniff out double agents, why send in Benny; he was also a double agent and his role was pivotal for the plot to work? And why send in someone who actually has the secret information you are trying to hide? Surely it is better to send in someone who is actually oblivious or who has dummy information. And if Benny cannot be detected for some reason, then use him and don't mess around with a dummy family on earth.... okay, now I may be bitching a bit :)

Regarding the screens at the beginning: The alien reactor is shown as the lab doctor flips through several different stories to go with. And one of those is the alien reactor. The only way to explain it if not a dream, imo, is that it is a coincidence - which of course is an awful explanation. The rendering of Melina was later in the process.

add all the oddities up, and the more likely explanation is that he is still at Rekall.

I think it ultimately goes to the understanding or realization of what the movie at its core is truly about:

The movie BEGINS with him having a nightmare where he and his fantasy dream girl falls of a mountain on Mars about to suffocate to death, and then he wakes up and avoids this fatal doom, yet he feels suffocated in his real life still with a woman he does not really love.

The movie ENDS with him and his fantasy dream girl falling of a mountain on Mars about to suffocate to death, except they don't as he saved the day a moment before.

So this time he doesn't have to wake up.

[–] Ilyathe2nd (145) 6 years ago

The basis of my interpretation is PKDF's original short story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Can_Remember_It_for_You_Wholesale in which reality and fantasy mix, what is thought to be the bought ego trip turns out to be based on even crazier supressed memories. Douglas Quail, the character there ordered this list of features for his mind trip not realizing he was subconsciously trying to retrieve these memories.

This is why I think film-Quaid ordered the list of features at Rekall and he is just being read his order back to him to make sure they included all of it. Remember, Melina appears in the dream at the beginning, she is not a Rekall feature.

Cohaagen's plan is not smart or well thought out, that much is clear to viewers and characters alike, Richter et al disagree with is violently, literally. Indeed, the fake marriage or job with "watchers" or unhidden-minded Benny are all stupidly unnecessary. Bringing in too many people is what reveals conspiracies in the real world. That's bad writing, but people are also stupid in real life, not just dreams. All going well would be more suitable to be the dream, no?

"Edgemar" is not shady himself, he is just an actor for hire within the story, which would also help to explain his nervousness, he is not used to these kinds of situations of actual danger and violence, he just reads the script for whoever pays. For Cohaagen at this point bringing one more person in on the conspiracy is not a big deal, he kills people, and an actor would be nothing. So, we can assume, Ol' Edgemar would be dead when they're done.

All in all, based on the original story, it's layers of deception and self-delusion, until the unbeliavable truth is revealed. PKD had a knack for these things, was never clear or easy-peasy to read. That's what I love about his texts, they lend themselves to interpretation. "We Can Remember It for You Wholesale" has a clear ending, and that is "I can't believe it turned out to be real."

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

This is not a book adaptation, it is not even a "based upon" kind of thing. It is stated as mere "inspiration" to the movie. It has some elements from the book indeed, and many if not most from somewhere else. The bigger setup and story between the two are completely different. The one thing they do share is that "real" vs "not real" is a theme in both.

In any case, I think the work being discussed here is the movie and not the martial on which it was based. I am not just saying this because I'm a pigheaded fool (which I may very well be) but because I generally always aim to get my experience form the work of art itself, and not the material or even the artist. I generally find it much more pleasing than digging in to background material which may or may not have influenced the storytellers.

And with that argument we cannot even ask Verhoeven.Years ago he said it was truly ambiguous even to him, and then in later interviews in which he was advocating putting a sequel in the works, he said it was not a dream (it supported the sequel he had in mind). Then after his sequel was a no go, he later outlined how clearly he actually wanted his version to be a dream.... in other words; who knows what he wanted to convey back then? Ultimately, we have the movie as the purest point of reference and I think the movie speaks for itself....

But I cannot deny that when you write:

QUOTE:"All in all, based on the original story, it's layers of deception and self-delusion, until the unbeliavable truth is revealed.... "We Can Remember It for You Wholesale" has a clear ending, and that is "I can't believe it turned out to be real." END QUOTE

- this is a parallel to the book indeed, but because the movie feed the story to us mostly as though it is real... and then ends with: I cannot believe it turned out to be a dream ;)

QUOTE:"This is why I think film-Quaid ordered the list of features at Rekall and he is just being read his order back to him to make sure they included all of it. Remember, Melina appears in the dream at the beginning, she is not a Rekall feature." END QUOTE

- I have a few issues here. Rekall knows nothing about Quaid or Hauser, that much is clear plus Kohaagen has his agents trying to keep Quaid out of there. They are not part of the plan or his control and so their dream adventure must be independent. And they are not "reading back his order" they are selling him storylines to pursue, I have linked to one pivotal Rekall scene below but here is his first Rekall meeting also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ2ujVlwcJc

Indeed Melina appears in the beginning dream and again at the Rekall lab. But as I address in my OP above (hint hint), this can equally well be explained from either a dream perspective or a real perspective and so proves nothing.

Of all the ambiguity, in my view only one thing truly speaks for it to be real and that is Melina in his beginning dream. And this can be rationalize differently without too much stretch. However, much more is on the other side of the equation. Most conclusive is the "blue skies on mars" and the alien reactor showed more or less randomly at the Rekall lab: Watch it again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJXx9HE2Rm4- it is only on second or third watch one will notice this reactor among many other of their options, and I think this is intentionally done to tell what is up.

QUOTE: "All going well would be more suitable to be the dream, no?" END QUOTE

- exactly. The almost extreme chaos and fantastic coincidences makes it unbelievable. A point often missed is that it is not a well orchestrated dream adventure vacation as planned by the Rekall Travel Agency. It is an ego trip gone horrible horrible wrong. Exactly as foretold by his construction bodies early in the movie and later explained in detail by the Doc at the Hilton’s. The overall plot of the adventure was indeed designed by the Rekall engineers as intended, but the variations and how it unfolds as we go along (like oddities of including his wife and coworkers etc. in to the mix) was because his subconsciousness was slowly taking over as the main dream architect. In a way the dream went out of Rekall Travel Agency’s control.

So ultimately what we see is a dream where his subconsciousness is the storyteller tumbling though the story (making it chaotic and weird), build upon the story-frame provided by the Rekall lab (Mars, Hilton etc). And his consciousness (him) is the ignorant player. Sort of how lucid dreams work.

The travel agent even makes it a point that while on one of their ego trips, “you are not you”. One would need to be fooled into thinking he is not himself for this ego trip to truly work. Atlas, it worked too well.

But as he says: ego trip is the newest thing... aka, risky?

Harry: A friend of mine tried it, nearly got himself lobotomized.
Quaid: No shit?
Harry: Don't fuck with your brain. It ain't worth it.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

There's plenty of examples of dream TV & films which have scenes that don't feature the protagonist dreamer like season 9 of Dallas.

[–] MickyMac (2935) 6 years ago

If it was real Rekall plays no role in the outcome of the story, with it without them Quaid would've still gotten the message from Hauser telling him to go to Mars.

[–] strntz (10785) 6 years ago

Some may mention that we will see scenes which he himself does not take part in, as a sure sign of it being real. This is not fair as lucid dreaming for example is a mix of a storyteller and a participant. And the few scenes without him is thereby dreamed by his subconsciousness as it is trying to make sense of it all. Remember he is only aware on his consciousness, not what mess his subconsciousness is cooking.

There's your answer. You mentioned it but failed to explain it.

No one dreams of anything except being in the first person.

[–] HAL 9010 (903) 6 years ago

No one dreams of anything except being in the first person

Oh, that is not so. Indeed, our viewpoints in dreams are most often as “first persons”, where we play ‘ourselves’, or sometimes another character, but inherently it is still our self. This is particularly common in nightmares and anxiety dreams. But there are other types of dreaming and the second most common perspective is as a “third person” where we witness the dream from an audience viewpoint, or as a disembodied watcher or point of awareness. And then there is the third kind which is rarer. It is a balanced blend of these two perspectives, and what is a good step towards pure lucid dreaming. Anyway, experiencing dreams in “third person” or in a mix, is not uncommon. Lucid dreaming is rather rare, but certainly real. I myself have lucid dreams.

In the movie Quaid experiences his own dream as a mix with the Rekall program. He is in control or rather he ceases control as the experience progresses, in a lucid kind of way where both this “first” and “third person” viewpoint coexist on a subconscious level. He is unaware of it and that is the whole problem, as the Dr. Edgemar explains. The dialog below is essentially that:

[From the script]

Quaid: “Where are we?”

Dr Edgemar: “At Rekall… You're strapped into an implant chair...and I'm monitoring you from the psychoprobe console”

Quaid: “Ah, I get it. I'm dreaming. And all this is part of the delightful vacation your company has sold me”

Dr Edgemar: “Not exactly. What you're experiencing is a free-form delusion based on our memory tapes... but you're inventing it yourself as you go along”

Quaid: “If it is my delusion, who the hell invited you?”

Dr Edgemar: “I've been artificially implanted as an emergency measure. I'm sorry to tell you this, but you've suffered a schizoid embolism. We can't snap you out of your fantasy... and I've been sent in to try to talk you down”

The key words here are “free-form delusion” and “but you're inventing it yourself”. This is what we have. A lucid dream only his subconsciousness controls. So his mind is the story teller, and also the lead.. his mind is split; he is consciously delusional about his subconsciousness‘ part in this.… he has suffered a schizoid embolism, so to speak.

Other so-called dream movies mix the dreamers perspectives as well, like “Inception (2010)” – here we see first person, and third person in what the movie specifically informs us are dreams. This does not proof anything, of course, but it does shows us how Recall would not be alone. Hell, even Dorothy from "The Wizard of Oz (1939)" experienced this mix in her dream* and here just for the sake of storytelling, I feel.

* yes I know the Oz books has it as a reality, but the film back in 1939 was of a different opinion.

[–] wearsalan (5554) 6 years ago

The director says it was a dream and Hauzer would eventually need a lobotomy.
Good enough for me.

[–] sslssg (27405) 6 years ago

Where did you read that? This says that it's intended to be both.

http://www.mandatory.com/culture/1162415-exclusive-paul-verhoeven-finally-explains-ending-total-recall

For TL:DR
'I wanted it to be that way,” Verhoeven clarifies. “Because I felt that it was – if you want to use a very big word – post-modern. I felt that basically I should not say ‘This is true, and this not true.’ I wanted – and we worked with Gary Goldman on that, not the original writers – [and we] worked very hard to make both consistent, and that both would be true. And I think we succeeded very well. So I think of course there is no solution. Hey, it’s both true. So I thought, two realities; that it was innovative in movie language at least, to a certain degree, that there would be two realities and there is no choice.”

So if you’ve been thinking that Total Recall was just a dream, you’re right. And if you’ve been thinking that it was all really happening, you’re right too. It’s not that the film doesn’t tell you whether it’s a dream or not, it’s that the film works both ways simultaneously, to give you two experiences at the same time.'

[–] ExTechOp (2737) 6 years ago

That's consistent with "Basic Instinct," which also ended on a Verhoeven-esque ham-handed "is it or isn't it?" moment.

Verhoeven spells out the fact that it's a dream in the DVD commentary, but he could've been talking about the specific cinematic "clues" that say (yell) "it's a dream" and not locking himself down to that interpretation.

In other words, you're right that both interpretations are right, because Verhoeven wanted both interpretations to be valid. He just lacks subtlety when explaining it.

I distinguish this from "Inception," though, which I don't think ended on an ambiguous note. I took that ending to mean "it no longer matters to Cobb, and therefore should no longer matter to the audience."

[–] wearsalan (5554) 6 years ago

Fair enough