Consider the message of this movie:
Extremely attractive woman becomes a prostitute because she is desperate and a 'friend' convinces her that it is glamorous. She is hired by an extremely wealthy man who wants her for everything but sex. They fall in love and a happy ending (non-euphemistically) ensues.
I find it odd that many women rate this as one of their favorites (along with Dirty Dancing, but that's a different story).
Edward (Gere) saw something special in her other than physical attraction. He saw her as a person, not an item. Vivien (Roberts) was distrusting in the world and only had one "friend." She never thought she was special. So... When Edward was willing to devote all his time to her NOT just for sex, she felt like the real Vivien. Not the "What do you want my name to be?" prostitute.
~Stefany
How about:
"Perhaps the most implausible movie ever with a message that glamorizes prostitution by suggesting that some insanely wealthy and attractive man is going to fix everything by falling in love with the best-looking streetwalker in the world."
I don't understand why anybody likes this movie at all much less why anybody would try to defend it against someone who clearly doesn't understand it or care to.
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I do mean me and I just wanted to see how people would react to my feelings on the subject. I don't understand the movie and why it is often regarded as one of the most romantic movies of our times. It seems completely cliched to me and its prominence baffles me.
shareI've always felt the film was overrated...but it's nowhere NEAR the worst movie ever in any way.
Sorry, I've seen so many movies that make this look like a sparkling jewel in a pile of dung that I have to question your reasons for proclaiming this movie as even in the consideration for worst movies ever, even if you are purely addressing the sociological and sexual aspects of the story.
Do you think anybody would read a post titled "perhaps a sort of over-rated movie?"
shareI've seen very long discussions of posts titled similarly. Particularly on this board that has some regulars who delight in discussing it.
shareI guess I'm just a little (perhaps more than a little) cynical.
shareActually, you aren't being cynical AT ALL; a cynic would consider it par for the course that a Hollywood movie is unrealistic. The very fact that you consider a movie's unrealism to be a worthwhile subject for discussion proves that you are actually rather idealistic.
As Honey pointed out, Hollywood movies glamorize most professionals, especially cops (and TV is even WORSE than movies on that account); it's only because you perceive this movie as glamorizing prostitutes in particular that you felt the need to post.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
Not just prostitutes but extremely wealthy and attractive men too. I suppose if I was just worried about prostitution I'd also be commenting on American Gigolo.
shareThat's a horse of a different color. Pretty Woman is merely unrealistic; American Gigolo is pure fantasy.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
If you say so.
share[deleted]
A planet full of orthodontists.
share[deleted]
No, but it made you laugh didn't it?
sharegive me a movie that you like and i guarantee that i can put the plot into my own words to make it seem moronic and implausible like you did for this movie. i'm a guy, and i'm not a big fan of this movie either, but i think you are viewing this very densely and without an open mind. it's romantic in that a guy can look through the flaws of a girl and look past her history to accept her for who she was, a charming, beautiful woman. doesn't sound too moronic really, albeit, this is the extreme case, we do deal with things like this all the time in our every day relationships.
"for the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?"
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You don't get it at all. It's not that she's a prostitute. She could be a maid, waitress, or have any other crappy job. The problem I have is that this movie in particular is considered a favorite by women, above many other movies with similar plots. I have an issue with any movie that relies on a happy ending based on a flawed ideal of perfection (i.e., the übermensch, ultra-rich handsome man). Why wouldn't this movie work if Jason Alexander and Richard Gere swapped roles? Why should we encourage women to be superficial, even if that superficiality is based on evolutionary concepts of a suitable mate. We have the ability to rise above our instincts, why shouldn't we?
Plus it makes for a rather uninteresting plot.
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It's 'übermensch' (Nietzsche), not 'mensch.' You should be a little more careful with your hasty judgments.
share[deleted]
What then explains the popularity of this movie? I contend that the very things I dislike (woman in dire circumstances saved by wealthy man) are the very things that make this movie so popular.
share[deleted]
Why should we encourage women to be superficial...
Please, don't be absurd. Adult women are ADULTS, and are no more susceptible to such "encouragement" than men are. So let's not have any of this insulting neofeminist rhetoric which attempts to infantalize women by suggesting that a woman is nought but a tabula rasa to be written upon by "the media" or "society". We are far more affected by our biochemistry than by any such nonsense.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
Explain to me then how advertising works on your blank slate theory. I'm not 'infantalizing' women. Nice hodge-podge of pseudo-intellectual drivel. Care to expand in plain English?
share I'm not 'infantalizing' women.
No, you're quoting dogma which does. You are pretending that
1) women are more impressionable than men;
2) nurture is stronger than Nature; and
3) social engineering to achieve what YOU consider desirable results is a good thing.
The first two are common mistakes of those indoctrinated by neofeminism; the third is symptomatic of fascism.
Nice hodge-podge of pseudo-intellectual drivel.
The term "pseudo-intellectual" is interesting, in that it's usually used by people whom it describes as an insult against those whom it doesn't. You know, like people who believe their own personal plans for humanity are superior to those devised by millions of years of evolution.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
I am not saying that women are more impressionable than men. I am saying this movie in particular is a favorite of women.
The whole nature v. nurture debate is junk-science. It's neither and it's both. Nature isn't dominant.
Where do you see that I am in favor of social engineering (aka Social Darwinism)?
Evolution doesn't have plans. It is chance and success based on adaptive traits.
Put your Latin phrase dictionary away if you don't want to seem pretentious and erudite.
I am saying this movie in particular is a favorite of women.
So what?
The whole nature v. nurture debate is junk-science. It's neither and it's both. Nature isn't dominant.
I suggest you read up on all the work in twin studies, comparative primate behavior and brain architecture done in the past 30 years.
Where do you see that I am in favor of social engineering (aka Social Darwinism)?
Social engineering and Social Darwinism aren't the same; they're practically opposites. "Social Darwinism" is a 19th-century belief that human society reflects nature, and that those who succeed are more "fit" than those who do not; it taught that we should allow the "weak" (i.e. poor) to die out as weak animals die out and improve a species. "Social engineering" is the equally immoral modern belief that society should be "improved" by conditioning people to believe different things than those they believe now; you espouse it continually throughout this thread.
Evolution doesn't have plans. It is chance and success based on adaptive traits.
I'm sorry if the concept of a "metaphor" is lost on you.
Put your Latin phrase dictionary away if you don't want to seem pretentious and erudite.
Pick up your dictionary of psychological terms (in which tabula rasa is included) if you want to discuss psychology without seeming completely ignorant.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
Maybe you can suggest some articles that you didn't find in a Microsoft encyclopedia.
When you're done assuming I'm ignorant and that you are superior perhaps you can formulate an actual argument rather than referring to some unnamed sources of your infinite wisdom.
Since you're so good at explicating my arguments and taking things out of context, maybe you can use my words and show how I'm advocating social engineering.
You are pretty damned arrogant and pretentious to assume that everything you say is based on recent studies (that you never cite).
Your closing quote and perpetual use of emoticons show your own immaturity and inability to take differing viewpoints seriously. What warrants you to be so smug and pretentious?
Your closing quote and perpetual use of emoticons show your own immaturity and inability to take differing viewpoints seriously.
No, my sig line states what any person without a political agenda already understands: That men and women are equal, different, complimentary and interdependent. If you find that truth "immature", I feel very sorry for you.
I use emoticons to attempt to provide the voice-tones and facial expressions otherwise absent from written communication; I'm sorry if you find body language to be "immature" as well. Presumably, you always wear a mask and speak in a monotone during real-world interaction so as to avoid seeming "immature".
You are pretty damned arrogant and pretentious to assume that everything you say is based on recent studies (that you never cite).
I'm not the one so convinced of her own self-importance that she takes it for granted strangers will waste valuable time attempting to argue with her.
You claim to be intelligent and educated; you should therefore be capable of using Google at least as well as I can. Why should I do your work for you? I'm not your teacher, and though it may hurt your feelings I must point out that I don't care WHAT you believe; why should I? What possible difference can the beliefs of some complete stranger out there somewhere in the English-speaking world, some stranger whose very NAME is unknown to me, make in my life?
More importantly, what possible difference can MY beliefs make to you? Why is it so damned important to you that I spend my time attempting to convince you that you're wrong? If you are as disdainful of my ideas as you pretend to be, why have you expended so much energy in trying to goad me into presenting them? And if you for some reason DO respect me, recognize on some level that you've been miseducated, and want me to show you where you've gone wrong, I respectfully suggest that you're going about it the wrong way. The correct way to ask for help is to ASK, politely and respectfully; you're not going to get anywhere by attacking, insulting and otherwise antagonizing the person from whom you want help.
I have stated this before in other places, and I'll state it again now: I DO NOT CARE what any troll or other loudmouth on a message board proclaims; I won't waste my precious time in childish and unproductive argumentation with such people. The only reason I respond is for the benefit of the silent many who read these boards but rarely post, those whose minds are not closed, but who might be taken in by spurious arguments. It is for the benefit of THEM that I respond, the people who need it and have thanked me for it (both in-thread and in PMs) many times.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
No, you're quoting dogma which does. You are pretending that
1) women are more impressionable than men;
2) nurture is stronger than Nature; and
3) social engineering to achieve what YOU consider desirable results is a good thing.
I wasn't responding to his original post, but to the SPECIFIC post I replied to. I didn't "create" any "undertones", I merely responded to what was clearly stated (as you could see if you bothered to READ what was written). The idea that the collective "encourages" childlike women to be superficial, as though women had no minds or drives of our own except those conferred upon us by paternalistic "society", is explicitly and outrageously sexist.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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If that's the case, he should've said "girls" rather than women. And in either case, his response is based in immoral, oppressive neofeminist concepts of social engineering whose premise is that women are no good as we are and should be "reinvented" to be more like men. It's the same old drivel we've heard a hundred times before on this board, especially from preacher-whatsisname (you know, the one who's so PWOUD of his mommy!)
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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Most movies that are this implausible don't find themselves so well-regarded by a specific demographic. Some do. They suck as well for the same reason. But I'm not here to argue about all movies, just Pretty Woman.
shareI would like it better if there was some reality spliced in. While she's dating Edward, the police are questioning her or she has a pimp who won't leave her alone or some customer punches her in the face after reaming her out, rendering her useless as a sex toy for a week or more.
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SpecialFlightRules.com
You may all go to hell, and I will go to Texas.
Yes.
share[deleted]
I'd just prefer if they didn't propagate harmful myths about knights in shining sports-cars or hookers with a heart of gold.
share[deleted]
Teaching is a respected (but underpaid) profession that doesn't objectify women. When was the last time you saw a representative of the Bunny Ranch at a high school career day?
I guess the issue for me is that you will be hard pressed to find a single woman that embodies Vivian in real life. The examples you give, while unlikely, are not complete fictions. Planting a seed in people's brains that even the worst circumstances can be overcome by the chance meeting of an obscenely wealthy man is what I find harmful. The fact that this movie is cherished by many shows that the seed sprouted roots. This scares me.
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"Women like Vivian do exist in real life, but they're escorts, not streetwalkers."
So what you're saying is that there aren't women like Vivian who exist. You can't just ignore the part of an argument that contradicts your conclusion.
[deleted]
But those women aren't in this movie.
share[deleted]
But Pretty Woman is about a street walker. Grow up.
share[deleted]
What the hell does that have to do with anything? I'll concede your silly little point and the silly ways you try to make it, but it doesn't change a thing about the reasons I dislike this movie.
shareI went to high school in Indiana, so...nobody from the Bunny Ranch showed up at my school.
And I've seen PLENTY of women who share some of the qualites of Vivian in real life, nobody matches up perfectly with such a two dimensional character, but I know many women (none are professionals at exchanging sex for money, but many might as well be) who have used one small aspect of their womanhood to make their fortunes in life.
I think I would respect them more were they professionals and not manipulating harpies, but that's just me.
I have seen women who have been longstanding brothel workers represented on television and via documentary film, none of whom have seemed to me to be any less worthy of my respect than the teachers that educated me (some whores I think I would probably like better than some of those who attempted to teach). I've never met any brothel workers in person (at least none I've known of) but I have had contact with some prostitutes in a former job. I never found them to be anything more or less than anyone else I met in that said job.
Also, one of the Bunny Ranch workers does a podcast in which she cooks. I saw that, her recipe for cookies was unimpressive. She also made a salad, which I thought to be rather uninspired. Since both recipes I saw were less than intriguing I never saw any others. I hope she stepped up her game. I suspect she's not a professional cook for a reason, but I assume she would be fairly successful at her job, althogh the podcast was completely tame.
What scares me more is that you don't see the difference between a streetwalking prostitue and a brother worker. Granted, both have essentially the same job, but so do carnival barkers and advertising executives, yet I'm certain you can see a difference between those two types of marketers.
Even though barkers and ad execs are both trying to convince you to part with your cash, the skill set is different (how many barkers have marketing degrees). I'm well aware that brothel workers and streetwalkers are not the same, but their skill set is. It's the clientele and environment that's different not the occupation per se.
I'm not saying that sex workers aren't worthy of respect. However, movies that are so far-fetched aren't worthy of so much praise.
[deleted]
Why is it so hard for you to understand that it isn't the movie I have a problem with. It is the fact that such a cliched piece of crap is considered to be one of the most romantic movies of our times.
Since when was sex not invented by people?
Thanks for assuming I'm sexist.
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I've never seen Titanic but it still bothers me.
share"Would a far-fetched portrayal of a female cop bother you as much as Pretty Woman does?"
Once again I'm not arguing against a movie about a female cop. Stop trying to change the subject.
[deleted]
It's a flawed analogy. What would be far-fetched about a female cop that could make it relevant to this topic?
How many times do I have to tell you it's not about prostitutes.
By the way, do you realize how silly those smiley faces seem? Do you add those just for the nuisance factor?
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Just come out and say it. You think I don't like this movie because Vivan is a whore. But you're wrong. I don't like it because it's a myth that makes a rich man the hero.
shareWhat's your feeling on Star Wars? Or Alien? Or Annie Hall? Or Bruce Almighty? Or anything by the Three Stooges? Or anything in which Matthew McConaghey plays anything other than Matthew McConaghey? Or Bond movies? Or Jaws?
You're issue is that the prostitute WINS.
My issue isn't that the prostitute wins, it's that she needs an extremely wealthy man to win. Get a grip.
shareWell, if instead of finding the one wealthy man she was able to take a little bit of extra cash from each job, set it aside into a savings account and retired from the business at 40 it wouldn't be a concise little movie, now would it?
Or, if the Gere character was making minimum wage he couldn't really fulfill the role required in this type of adaptation of Pygmalion, now would it?
And since you completely disregarded my questions (and by the way that was a little rude, you should at least respect the humor in the MM comment, I'm proud of that one) I have to assume that it IS your problem that the prostitute wins, or at least the manner in which she does so (which I admit I should have been more specific about - I apologize).
Maybe if the only way they could tie up the loose ends in this movie was by making her a streetwalker and him a super-rich attorney then they shouldn't have bothered.
Maybe that was my point in the first place. If the only way to tell a story is to tell it relying on cliches and reinforcing stereotypes then perhaps that story isn't worth telling (or being considered such a favorite).
I dislike Pretty Woman for a host of reasons. I think it's cliched, cowardly, poorly scripted and poorly cast. However, I never had a problem with the overall concept or the attempt made to update Pygmalion in the manner in which it was done.
I'm confused why you wouldn't mention the massive number of other cliches in this film, but only that the wealthy man swings in to rescue her.
Having only seen it once I picked out the thing that stuck out most. Call it low-hanging fruit or whatever.
share[deleted]
I've never seen MFL, but I love Julie Andrews. I just thought Pretty Woman was a crappy over-rated movie. Truce?
share[deleted]
She can sing and it's in the Austrian alps, not LA.
share[deleted]
I don't know. You tell me. I have expended far too much energy on this. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.
share[deleted]
Why are you taking this so personally? I have no trouble being coherent. I could just as easily accuse you of being belligerent after persistently failing to see that this is a movie I have only seen once and was merely making a rash statement about it because I don't understand why so many women consider it to be romantic.
Are you finished Torquemada?
Make him limp, stutter and smell and it's a deal.
share[deleted]
Lighten up. All I'm saying is that to take a man who's perfect by many standards and have him fall in love with a woman who is also perfect (except she's a prostitute) is not very imaginative or inspiring. Give him a few flaws to make it even.
share[deleted]
You're right. On second thought it's great. You've convinced me. Best movie ever.
share[deleted]
Sorry. I don't care enough to continue. Mea culpa.
shareAll I'm saying is that to take a man who's perfect by many standards and have him fall in love with a woman who is also perfect (except she's a prostitute) is not very imaginative or inspiring. Give him a few flaws to make it even.
Him being an amoral businessman who dismembers other people's companies to turn a profit isn't a flaw in your mind?
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
I'm guessing you're not a Republican. He'd get a medal for that back in the Reagan-Bush days.
shareBig difference between LA and Vienna.
share[deleted]
LA is the Mecca of superficiality. I have a big problem with that since it is also the media capital of the world.
share[deleted]
Naturalizing those sorts of arguments by pulling the 'inevitability card' is how stereotypes persist. It is entirely possible that we can change societal norms to de-emphasize physical attraction in favor of more worth-while attributes.
share[deleted]
It is entirely possible that we can change societal norms to de-emphasize physical attraction in favor of more worth-while attributes.
Please, feel free to marry someone ugly, stupid, poor and unhealthy, and allow the rest of us to choose our mates based on whatever criteria WE feel are important.
The criteria by which an individual is attracted to another individual are NOT anyone else's business.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
You don't care what I mean unless you can twist it to support your own agenda.
share[deleted]
That's what I'm trying to figure out. Whatever it is it has something to do with convincing me Pretty Woman is a good movie.
share[deleted]
At least we have something in common. I like Roy Orbison too.
share[deleted]
You tell me, why is being a prostitute a flaw? Would this movie work at all if it wasn't considered frowned upon?
share[deleted]
that provides one of the prevailing themes in the film. Much of the content resolves around preconceptions about women's value ... as prostitutes or as those who are looking for a good catch. Much of the humor and life lessons also stem from this one fact.
shareI'm not talking about how this movie could have been done. I'm talking about it as it was put up on the silver screen.
share[deleted]
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
It wouldn't be the same movie would it?
I'm guessing you're not a Republican.
You would guess correctly. I'm not a brainwashed follower of EITHER chapter of the one American political party. I derive neither my ideas nor my morality from some group's arbitrary and self-contradictory list of approved beliefs, and I recognize that anyone who would voluntarily seek public office should be permanently barred from it.
Like all free and moral people, I recognize that every individual has the right to pursue happiness according to his own vision, as long as he doesn't hurt anyone else in the process. I also recognize that those who seek power over others are moral retards who shouldn't even be tolerated in society, let alone given the keys to both the arsenal and the treasury.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
Star Wars and Aliens are science fiction. Bruce Almighty deals with the supernatural. Annie Hall and the Three Stooges are comedies. Jaws is a horror film. James Bond movies are spy thrillers.
Pretty Woman doesn't fall into any of those genres and can't be compared to them because they rely on different conventions. Those movies rely on implausible notions in a wholly different way than romance movies.
Whatever captain bongo does is his business.
but it's far from impossible. History is filled with stories of the implausible that warm the hearts of the lackluster, mundane lives of the reader/audience. Escapism is at least as good a reason for having somewhat unrealistic plays as any other reason. "Scheherazade" is about as unrealistic as any film ever made, yet people are drawn to the story. Children are delighted by Rapunzel, Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella, yet the possibility of such things happening are far more remote than in Pretty Woman.
Pretty Woman is a modern fairy tale for adults, filled with social commentary, hope, beautiful people, wit and humour. It isn't merely "fluff" although it isn't high-brow either. It's sound entertainment with an up-beat theme ... hardly a bad thing. That the general public found it to their liking is beyond question and the reasons why are obvious. It has considerably more social value than many other films I could name.
Bread and circuses have only one social value: distraction.
Fairy tales were originally cautionary tales meant to discourage bad behavior. If anything Pretty Woman encourages bad behavior and the type of escapism that it represents only serves to make people apathetic and worship at the altar of obscene wealth.
It's the money that disturbs you. What can possibly be "obscene" about wealth? It's the quest for financial security (wealth) that drives society and always has done. It's what has made it possible for us to be having this discussion at all. Most fairy tales are case and era specific, yet they have universal appeal. What is wrong with setting political and economic reality aside for a time to watch an up-lifting tale of hope?
Pretty Woman is far from being "bread and circuses". Are you implying that the situation is impossible? Are you saying that a prostitute could not find a lonely, jaded wealthy man who was fed up with the hypocrisy of his own social class ... and fall in love with her? With little effort, it's undoubtedly possible to find many examples of such a situation. Are you saying there is something morally wrong or repellingly reprehensible about such an arrangement?
Wealth is not by itself obscene. How one comes to acquire that wealth often is obscene.
I'm not talking about reality. I'm talking about a very popular fictional portrayal of a woman in arguably the worst of circumstances being rescued following an unlikely relationship with a man who makes his money dishonestly.
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Do you really think that most of the people who love this movie see Vivian's occupation as anything but the worst of circumstances. It's not about what you think in this regard.
share[deleted]
I'm not talking about Vivian's circumstances. I'm talking about the perception of those circumstances by the people who like this movie.
share[deleted]
It's not about how people view this movie from a rational perspective. It's about the emotional responses that over-ride rationality. It's part of the bigger picture where myths about success and failure are promulgated in the subconscious mind.
share[deleted]
It's not vague, just complicated. People watch movies like this and they form an emotional response to its elements. Those elements may very well be exaggerated but we subconsciously accept these ideas which would ordinarily appear nonsensical. Pretty much all advertising works on these principles.
share[deleted]
a lot more. Perhaps the fact that she's a street walker, might be a bit far fetched, but not the way in which she was introduced in that film. Edward was completely jaded about women of his own social class and rightly made the conclusion that a strictly business relationship would be understood by Vivian. The fact hat she was gorgeous is part of Hollywood's own shtick ... but not completely out of the question.
I didn't find anything unrealistic about the arrangement at all, having met many, many prostitutes (in a non professional capacity) ... I lived for a time in a brothel in Marseilles. Many men go to prostitutes because it is a completely honest business relationship. Edward was making a social statement (not unlike in Shaw's Pygmalion) that indicated, for his purpose, women were interchangeable.
It's LA not Marseilles. We're dealing with an American film with American characters and American standards and mores.
sharebetween LA and the S. of France, you're either very young of very inexperienced. Prostitutes are remarkably similar to all other women ... and they don't start out used and damaged. I cited my own experience only to indicate that I have had some considerable contact with prostitutes in no their non professional capacity, and i found them no different than any other women I've met. Most of Pretty Woman was about her 'non-professional' social interaction.
BTW, Edward was by no means an "uber-mensch by any standards. He was as flawed in his own way as Vivian. It was her earthy honesty that cut through his coldness and jaded nature and gave him the different perspective allowing him to alter his modus operendi.
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As I mentioned earlier, I've met dozens of so called "street walkers", some who used brothels and some who were free lancers. I didn't notice any difference between them and any other women of my acquaintance, with similar social and or educational backgrounds. They're just people who made certain career choices ... in fact, most don't see what they are doing as a 'career choice'. Nearly all look upon it as a temporary measure until they get married. Oddly enough, there are a considerable number of men who do specifically marry prostitutes ... perhaps it's their sexual honesty that is so appealing.
share[deleted]
By Nietzsche's standards Edward is certainly an übermensch. He has manipulated others for his own desires of power and greed.
I am neither very young nor very inexperienced. Assuming that I am because you disagree is pretty immature.
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Brothels are not legal in France, and especially not right next door to The City Hall in Marseilles ... but they are tolerated because they do tend to regulate street prostitution. Most brothels are in hotels (well suited to the task). I needed a room for several weeks so I went to the front desk to inquire. One of the girls was off on maternity leave, so rather than lose revenue (and because I was a polite, pleasant young Canadian) the Madam gave me the room until Rachelle returned. Of course there is much more to the story ... but those are the basics.
share[deleted]
[deleted]
Did you bother to look up 'übermensch?" I don't support Nietzsche's notion of the will to power. Where in any of my posts can you find anything that shows I admire or approve of Edward's behavior or character?
share[deleted]
I didn't say perfect by my standards.
share[deleted]
Nonfiction and journalism have an obligation to be fully realistic...
I agree, but I'm afraid most modern journalists don't.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
Have you commented on Idiocracy yet? It seems right up your alley.
shareI can't remember where I heard it, from some interview with an actor or musician who claimed that his favorite brothel in France was across the street from the Louvre. When the interviewer said "I thought that was a hotel" the interviewee said "Right. It's a hotel."
Hide in plain sight, I guess.
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In this movie she is a streetwalker. I'm not arguing about reality, I'm arguing about a fictional portrayal of a sex worker who is saved from her crappy life after a chance encounter with a rich handsome guy. It's fluff. It's crap. It's fake.
Don't try to justify the message of this movie by appeals to the real world. This movie must stand or fall on its own merits (or lack thereof). I don't care about what most prostitutes do, just the fictional one in this movie.
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"The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense."
-Tom Clancy
You can only go so far in convincing someone to suspend her disbelief. Go too far and you are in the realm of farce.
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Lewis Carrol's tales were written for a little girl and though incredibly clever they are not comparable to a movie like Pretty Woman. Arsenic and Old Lace is a mystery and also not comparable to Pretty Woman.
Apples and oranges.
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cautionary tale, girls meets boy from different class and so on. It was so well received that a more recent version was released. It had the same 'charm' and many of the same lessons as Pretty Woman. it might have been fluff, but it was damn good fluff. Watching Billy Holliday was always a treat ... particularly in Born Yesterday.
shareFrom an interview with Jennifer Jason Leigh:
But she's not interested in just any victim role. She read early on for the lead in Pretty Woman and was later asked by the Guardian why it didn't work out. "[The director] actually said something so hysterical to me about the character," she told the newspaper. "He said: 'She's only been doing this a few weeks, so it's still a lot of fun for her.' Yeah, it's a lot of fun getting into a car with a 68 year-old and giving him a blow job. Really exciting."
http://nymag.com/nymetro/arts/theater/15247/
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Jennifer Jason Leigh refused to play a happy hooker in Pretty Woman because she doesn't want to act in unrealistic glamorizations of sordid jobs, but she was willing to co-star in Road to Perdition as the wife of Tom Hanks the lovable nice guy professional killer.
At least we know where Jennifer's priorities lie.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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I'll have to rewatch Fast Times, but I think I agree with you regarding JJL being funny. I'm sure she's done something funny, but I can't remember any at all right now.
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And you know this from personal experience, I presume?
Here's a radical notion: There are LOTS of hookers who have blogs and form organizations to fight the kind of idiotic stereotype you just spewed (which is the exact equivalent of "all black people love fried chicken and watermelon"). I suggest you read a few of them and educate yourself so you won't sound like such an ass.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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I didn't call it "inspirational"; I said your stereotyping is offensive, which it is, and that you clearly know nothing about sex work and should educate yourself so you can avoid looking like an ass by calling a job "exploitation" like some Marxist feminist cartoon character.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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You are spouting bigotry without any basis in reality. I suggest you visit a sex worker rights site rather than performing the moral equivalent of getting your information on atheists from the Southern Baptist Convention.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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It is not possible to reason anyone out of a position he didn't reason himself into, but since other people are reading this, and not everyone imagines him- or herself a psychic who can just "know" what things are like without actually talking to anyone who's ever done those things:
http://www.swopusa.org/en
http://www.iusw.org/
http://www.swaay.org/
http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/
http://titsandsass.com/
http://www.texasgoldengirl.com/afterhours/
http://sexonomics-uk.blogspot.com/
...and dozens more like them, all over the internet. And that's all I have to say to you on the subject.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
I agree with you that this movie is bad, and I am a woman. Not only have I always found this movie extremely cheesy, but I never understood why women swoon over the story and characters. What is so romantic about a guy picking up a hooker? No one thinks it's cute when a politician does it, or when a husband does it, or when a minister does it. It's considered a dirty thing in everyday life. It all boils down to the fact that women just love "rescue" stories, where a woman's crappy life is saved when a man swoops down into it. That is the dream for a lot of women. It just goes to show how simple people can be that they accept this movie. They think, "My life is bad, but I'm not a hooker. If she can be saved, so can I."
If Edward were fat and bald, though, and the hooker looked like a real streetwalker and were hooked on meth, this movie would've been considered trash and wouldn't have a made dime. It's just so far away from reality. Women watch this and like to think that they could be Vivien because she's so "normal" and quirky and funny, but they forget that in real life, no guy in Edward's shoes would A) give her the time of day, B) appreciate anything about her personality, C) get past her banging body, D) remember her name after he dropped her off on the corner where he found her. Not to mention that a girl who looks like Julia Roberts did back in 1990 would not be walking the streets. She'd be on the level of the Spitzer call girl, living in a penthouse. That is a true life "beautiful people" prostitute story right there, Spitzer and his lady of the night.
On the plus side, Richard Gere and Julia Roberts were both at their physical peaks in this movie, and the love scenes were very sexy. I might've dropped $100 to get involved in that. Anyway, it's a fun, entertaining movie, and that's all it's meant to be. It's when you break it down that you see how bad it is and how ridiculous the message is. If you're looking for a romantic fantasy movie, then maybe this is a good one. I just don't care for it because I can't get past the things I mentioned.
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1. Yeah, it is to me. For the majority of people on this planet, prostitution is something considered dirty. Maybe you don't think it should be. You're entitled to your opinion. And yeah, for a lot of people, those other things you mentioned are dirty as well, and they're entitled to their opinions. It doesn't even matter for this discussion if it is or isn't dirty. It's just an opinion. I personally find nothing romantic about their sleazy situation in this movie, and that is my opinion.
2. No, it wouldn't change my opinion at all. It would just be more realistic; but then, no one would have sympathy for Julia's character if she lived like a high class hooker.
3. It's very easy to like or even love something even if it's awful. Most Top 40 music is pure crap with no technical quality at all, but people spend billions on it. It's "mindless entertainment" and fluff that looks good on the outside but has no substance. That's no defense for this movie being good, just because people enjoy it.
As far as Ghost goes, people could relate to it, because it dealt with losing a loved one. People were sad for Demi's character. People loved it because of Whoopi Goldberg's great performance in her hilarious role. It was cheesy and bad in its own ways at times, but a very likeable movie. It's all entertainment.
People love Pretty Woman, and that's fine. I personally think it's bad. That's all I got to say on this one.
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Are you a prostitute yourself? I've never seen someone defend a movie, especially this movie, so rabidly.
And yes, I think it's bad, but think what you like.
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I like The Godfather and GoodFellas and think that they're excellent films, even though I dislike violence, theft, and murder. I think those are "dirty" things, too, but the movies were the best. I explained in my first post two of the reasons why I think Pretty Woman is bad. It's cheesy and unrealistic, and I think that's bad. No, I don't like prostitution, but it's not the reason I dislike the movie. I can't say that it helps my opinion of it, but there are plenty of other reasons to dislike it.
You two are the ones who seem to be taking this all very personally for reasons you are making very obvious. Feeling a little guilty over your predilections, or what? If anyone has "issues" here, it ain't me or the original poster. I just think it's a crappy movie. You seem to be making it into a crusade to defend prostitutes and your own sex lives.
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You two are the ones who seem to be taking this all very personally for reasons you are making very obvious. Feeling a little guilty over your predilections, or what?
Why would anyone feel "guilty" over supporting a woman's right to do what she likes with her own body, rather than letting a paternalistic government or bluenosed busybodies decide it for her?
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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Not that I think being called a whore is an insult, far from it.
I don't think so either, but he obviously does.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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Are you a prostitute yourself? I've never seen someone defend a movie, especially this movie, so rabidly.
Considering that the film portrays neither streetwalkers nor call girls realistically, why would you expect a prostitute to defend it?
I agree with Whipped Honey, though. I don't think Pretty Woman is a very good film; I've only seen it once, on an airplane about eight years ago. But I think it's both fascinating and disturbing to see how many supposedly "modern", enlightened people still hold views like "prostitution is dirty" despite the fact that the moral line between prostitutes and 99% of the other non-celibate heterosexual women on the planet is so fine as to be practically nonexistent.
And what's even more pathetic is the number of people who lack the guts to come out and admit they hold that prejudice, so they instead wrap up their visceral reaction to a positive portrayal of a prostitute in neofeminist jargon and pretend that their ignorance and bigotry is "really" some sort of enlightened viewpoint.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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What's even worse is, getting screwed for a specific amount of cash is "dirty", but screwing a man (in divorce court) for HALF his property is socially acceptable.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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You and me both. The neofeminist attitude toward other women is far more patronizing than that of the most patriarchal Victorian ever was.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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...how prevalent the attitude that women are lesser than men is in our society.
That's why I coined the term "neofeminism"; I refuse to use the word "feminism" to describe someone who thinks women aren't good enough as we are, and should strive to be more like men in almost every way.
I just don't like when other people try to tell me what I should and shouldn't be insulted by or what my choices should be.
My feelings exactly!
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
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Precisely.
Woman is the Earth and Man is the Sky.
You're overthinking it. It is just a sweet tale.
shareYou're looking at this movie completely wrong...COMPLETELY! The whole point of the movie is that they changed each other in the best way possible. Due to living like a rich and classy lady, Vivian becomes more classy herself and cares more about her self respect. The more time Edward spent with Vivian, the more he realized that there's more to life than just money and work. There's love too. This is a beautiful film with a great story line, characters, and actors. Maybe you should re-watch the movie and try to understand why so many people love it.
shareTo start with, I want to make it clear that I am not one of those who agree with the subject title. Whilst this movie is far from perfect, it has many strengths to it, the least of which is its likeability. It is a warm, encouraging picture, and the greatest crime that it has committed is that of being overly-optimstic. There must be a million different reasons why a woman might become a prostitute but being one does not automaticslly make her a 'bad' person.
That she succeeds in improving her life (no disrespect to her previous situation, but I think marrying a considerate, good-looking millionaire who loves her counts as am improvement!) under improbable circumstances simply makes this film into a fantasy. Unrealistic - yes. At least the circumstances that lead to her 'salvation' are, but I don;t feel that Vivian is unrealistic, nor Edwward, nor Kit - and certainly not Stuckey or his wife or the hotel manager.
People make mistakes and get into unplanned and unwanted situations. Seldom do they manage to reverse these situations just by being decent, hhonest, caring and loving. Erwars and Vivian do. Good for them.
Karen St