Seals Vs SAS
Right then, sure to be a contenious issue but I'd like to hear some opinions....
I don't think you can really compare them. The British Special Air Service has a lot more in common with 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta (Delta Force) than they do with the US Navy SEALS. The British SAS in fact was responsible for the creation of Delta Force when US Army Colonel Charles Beckwith decided the US needed a type of SAS Unit.
Furthermore in the mid-90's when Richard Marcinko created the legendary and top Secret SEAL TEAM SIX, that was much more of a unit like Delta/SAS if you've read his Rogue Warrior autobiography.
In my opinion, both the SAS and the SEALS are badasses, but from what I've read the most deadly special ops units ever created were SEAL TEAM SIX (which acted independently form other SEAL teams) and DELTA FORCE and the 22nd British SAS.
Interesting fact is that Chuck Pfarrer writer for Navy SEALS was a member of Marcinko's legendary SEAL TEAM SIX.
Recommended reading:
Rogue Warrior......Richard Marcinko
Inside Delta Force...Eric Haney
Bravo Two Zero...Andy McNabb
Combat Swimmer....Chuck Pfarrer
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Regardless of how you think about it, Cmdr. Marcinko is considered a Legend. Yes, you are absolutely correct in the fact that he broke rules, but the MAJORITY of the rules he broke were in order to keep America safe. SEAL TEAM SIX along with Delta was the best the US had in the 80's.
The man pioneered the use of HALO and HAHO jumping with SEAL TEAM SIX.
The man was so effective at his job in Vietnam that the North Vietnamese put a 50,000 Plaster bounty on him for his death.
Male Magazine did the "Shark Man of the Delta" article on him and Marcinko became the poster-warrior of the SEAL pubilicity tour in 67'.
Furthermore, after getting released from prison the man was hired by security agencies around the world for his expertise. Why? Because he was the best of the best.
I respect your opinion but furthermore, he certainly did not treat recruiting SEAL TEAM SIX like a casting call for a Dirty Dozen movie. That claim was just ludicrous.
CALIFORNIA 1985: Marcinko and RED CELL successfully launch a mock attack on AIR FORCE ONE outwitting, Marines, FBI, local SWAT, DOD, Air Force Security, and of course Secret Service.
Personally I have never heard of a Non-lethal grenade such as a flashblang blowing somebody's leg off. While on Delta Force, a buddy of Eric L. Haney, had a standard issue flashbang grenade land square in his lap. The result: his face was covered in black and his hearing was gone temporarily. A week later he was fully recovered.
"A legend in his own mind" yeah, okay mister. let's have a look at the facts.
Vietnam:
Over a sixth month period, Marcinko's "dirty dozen as you call them" performed 107 combat patrols with more than 150 confirmed kills and 84 captured. He only had one casualty in combat. Thats right, one *beep* MAN in his entire tour of vietnam he lost one man.
Over the course of two tours, Marcinko won the SILVER STAR, 4 BRONZE STARS w/ combat V, numerous Navy commendation medals, VIETNAMESE CROSS OF GALLANTRY w/ SILVER STAR and a Legion of Merit for 300 days of combat in cambodia.
Marcinko himself admitted to being guilty of his charges but he did it to protect our country.
I could go on, but there is really no point too. I know some SEALS like Orr Kelly and Bill Faucett call him a self destructive ego maniac and its true he was, but he was also the best of the best because of it, kinda like General George S. Patton Jr.
If you talk to other famous SEALS like CJ Caracci,Chuck Pfarrer, Harry Humphries, Ted Lyon, they'll all say the same thing, Marcinko was an ego-maniacal maniac but he was also the best of the best. If you could go into combat with one man, he'd be the one to choose.
In closing, Demo Dick, Shark Man of the Delta, Cmdr. Richard Marcinko, is a legend and will be however long the Navy decides to scorn upon him.
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How right you are sir. But once again, I never disagreed with you on the fact that Marcinko "bent the rules" I was simply trying to make a point that indeed he is a legend.
Marcinko is not in the same league as Patton, that is true but one thing is the same. Both were leaders, both bent the rules, both got punished for it, one more than the other.
The S&W .357, custom made for Marcinko, was in fact given to him by members of DEVGRU SIX, NOT THE TAXPAYERS. Each man contributed twenty dollars to the pistol as well as the belt buckles.
Marcinko's defense in court rested largely on his records as a staffer at OP-06 and as commanding officer of SEAL TEAM SIX. The US Navy however silenced Marcinko ruling that his various "activities" from 1977 to 1985 regarding DEVGRU could "not be described."
I know your information is valid and fact cannot be disputed. Marcinko however, is still a patriot. Compared to what is going on in washington politically today, Marcinko's crimes seem like that of stealing bread crumbs.
July 22, 1986
Newly appointed secretary of the Navy James Webb reads Marcinko's entire file after just 25 days in his desk chair. Immediatly after he removes Marcinko from the promotion list to "captain." Webb's legal advisor was a man named Rudy who argued against a promotion for Marcinko when he was still commander, months before an investigation or charges were being brought up. Must be a coincidence that the man was also VCNO R. Hays's legal advisor exactly 18 months earlier.
Furthermore Webb also forced "Sea Daddy" Ace Lyons into retirement.
May 20, 1986
NIS interrogates Marcinko for 17 hours. The transcript was immediatly classified and withheld from Marcinko. Furthermore, NIS pulled over 60 cases of records and documents from 3 different DEVGRU record vaults. Marcinko was forbidden to view them and explain them, but NIS had a field day leaking a trail of them out across the entire US SpecWar community.
If you look on navyseals.com about HALO/HAHO jumping it indeed does say that the methods were pioneered and perfected for COMBAT by DEVGRU.
Training accidents that occurred in Team Six were bound to happen as each man new the unit would operate independently and cut corners. Each man new the risks and accepted them. Marcinko cannot be personally blamed for an unfortunate SEAL's tripping.
I can do nothing to dispute your facts on Marcinko's recruitment process however I know that while he might have been careless in that area, he still acted proffessional at other times while forming STS.
You discussed "the cream of the cream" well, love them or hate them the guys on ST6 were the best and could match DELTA or 22nd SAS anyday. They might have played under the table but in regards to terrorism they were the best America had to offer.
Marcinko was corrupt and ego-maniacal, but he still trained and equipped one of the best fighting units ever.
On a personal note, I sincerely enjoyed reading your intelligent post. Its better than half the garbage on imdb.
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Im not in the military or anything but i do like to read about it.
i would say that the SAS are a level above the SEALs. different types of unit carrying out different styles of operation which makes a camparison difficult.
In Afghanistan our SAS (im from australia) actually saved a seal unit from being totally wiped out after the chinook that was carrying them came under fire. it was the incident where the guy had fallen out of the helicopter, the SAS were within spitting distance of the enemy calling in pinpoint airstrikes eliminating the enemy saving the lives of that SEAL unit. a couple of the soldiers were actually given medals from the US for there actions in that incident.
only one SAS soldier was killed in Afghanistan and that wasnt in combat, it was from driving over a landmine. not sure how much truth there is to this but i read it on wikipedia that the airstrike that was supposed to have injured Osama Bin Laden was actually called in by our SAS who confirmed it was him, how much truth that is i dont know,
and when you went to war in IRAQ a few years back you asked especially for our SAS to be involved so that must be a compliment of sorts they were some of the first troops to cross the border into Iraq ahead of the main invasion.
i cant remember what the book was called but it wasnt written by Mcnab or Ryan but they were talking about DeLabillier the british stormin norman and the planning of the first gulf war, him and norman were talking about special forces and how long they could last out on there own be4 resupply and things like that i think DLB said his (british) SAS could last in the field without resupply for like 2 weeks at a time and that surprised the hell out of norm so he wanted them in on it.
it doesnt sound like SEALs can conduct long term deployments where as the SAS can do both.
but like i said im not in the Military but i know who id want to have my back!
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I'll second that
nswucqbseal
that was an awesome debate and i myself am an avid reader of richard marcinko novels and u opened my eyes far more then what marcinko mentioned in his novels, and in relation to the question it depends on the forms of deployment and mission speciality, but overall it would be the SEALS, due to better equipment, Australia has just started spending more on the counter terrorism capablities on the SAS
both can inspire fear by their very name
shareWow that guy killed loads of people...
Isnt he really cool and badass...
*beep* douchebags
While I do have enormous respect for the SAS, I have to disagree with you saying they're "better" than the SEALs. Firstly, neither SAS or SEALs are better than one another; they are on the same side, they are both highly trained, and they both perform vital(but different) mission roles.
The SAS has several exploits, but these are only exploits because they have been made aware to the public in some form. However, on the other end of the spectrum the sustained casualties, and short comings of the SAS are more often than not, not mentioned at all by the British Government. This predominately positive publicity can often allow one to forget that the men of the SAS are in fact human, well-trained, but inevitably imperfect.
The SEALs also hold the same flaws as the SAS, however most of their successful ops are not reported until years after they were performed, antithetically one is quick to hear of their failed missions from DoD reports, and some less credible conspiracy theorists. Most of the American public does not know what the SEALs do, they just know that they do it.
"it doesnt sound like SEALs can conduct long term deployments where as the SAS can do both. "
Just so you know, you only stated how long the SAS could last on an Op without resupply, not how long the SEALs could last. If you wish to make the statement concrete back it up with facts from both ends.
I agree to an extent that it could be argued that SAS share more in common with Delta than SEALS, but in long run I think that's not quite a fair assessment. The SAS specialise in a number of things as we know, such as fast rope assaults from choppers to HALO jumps into enemy territory - specialities which once would have been covered my multiple teams. But their speciality is as an anti-terrorist unit. They spend more time training in room-to-room storming, stealth, bomb disarming and close-quarter fighting etc. than any other force in the world. Which is why they often travel to other countries to train other forces at the British army's expense. And the team with the second most advanced training could be argued between Germany's GSG9, Israel's Sayeret Matkal and Canada's JTF2, but the first American group to come up, before Delta Force, is DEVGRU (United States Navy Special Warfare Development Group) and it was created immediately after the legendary SEAL Team Six was disbanded to fill their void. And it has far closer ties to the SEALS than Delta, as the SEAL's are, I have been led to believe, where they acquire many of their men from. And of course they both are branches of the NAVY.
I am aware that SEAL Team Six are absolute legends, and since then the SEALS are of course not up to the same standard. Nearly, but not quite, because quite simply no one really could be - if one team has all that they had at their disposal rather than spreading it thinner over multiple teams like they do now they are bound to get a little more out of it, especially if they specialise in anti-terror like Team Six did and are hand picked men.
However, it is my opinion that whereas the modern SEALs do not follow the same guidelines that Team Six did (that's where DEVGRU come in), the SAS actually do. And there are four teams of SAS soldiers, each divided into a father four specialist groups. That's a lot of men who are very, very good at what they do as well as having an almost inhuman amount of training.
So, if one were to pick Seal Team Six (which is slightly unfair as they don't share that much in common with those from the movie), but none the less, if it were SEAL Team Six against a hand picked selection of the best of the best from SAS of the same period, you would have yourself a bloody good match, as although Team Six went down in history, the SAS had a lot going on that was so secret, no one knew about it, so one can only imagine what kind of hardcore stuff they got up to. They were, after all, created to do just about the same kind of thing.
But, having said that, I believe if a team of the modern SEALs went up against a team of the modern SAS, or more realistically if they were both put through the same mission or simulated mission like, say, storming a plane, I think the SAS would wip the living crap out of the SEALs. Of course if it were a water-born mission, it would change things. It really does just depend on the mission type. But I think, generally speaking, from what I have read, heard, seen and experienced, the SAS are specialised in more of the vital fields.
Go to the loo, 'cause all the *beep* is coming out your mouth instead of your a-hole...
He's a hero, and he's a loon. Most gung-ho military men are, but it's a requirement of the job.
You don't have to separate the two. It takes a certain disdain for the structure of regular society in order to perform harsh military style missions.
It's like having a power saw - you can cut wood with it well, but it makes a mess if you try to cut birthday cake with it.
These guys simply need to be isolated from the majority of society, and kept within their own specialized environments, to be utilized when necessary.
He's useless and a hazard in the civilian world, as most of us would be in military operations.